Customer got hit by a prop today.

Tom-D said:
What makes you believe I am responsible for others action when they already know the consequences of their actions?
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You're the task supervisor. It's that simple. If you didn't brief him on the dangers (seems like you did a lot of assuming) then you can be found liable. And the briefing has to be documented or its he said she said.

If you had a written consent form or JSA, there would be no issue. However you don't.

Seems like the customer is taking his lumps and moving on, which is great. But you should take steps to ensuring you're protected if there ever happens to be a 2nd time....
 
Just curious...

I've done compression checks on my ROTAX solo on occasion.

Most times, I can find TDC with a dowel close enough that the prop does not have to be held as I crank up the pressure.

Once in a while I'm a bit off and the engine "kicks". Since I'm always clear of the prop, I see no harm done.

What's the concern about that?
 
SmashTime said:
You're the task supervisor. It's that simple. If you didn't brief him on the dangers (seems like you did a lot of assuming) then you can be found liable. And the briefing has to be documented or its he said she said.

If you had a written consent form or JSA, there would be no issue. However you don't.

Seems like the customer is taking his lumps and moving on, which is great. But you should take steps to ensuring you're protected if there ever happens to be a 2nd time....
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SmashTime,

I get the impression that Tom is a small field pilot, not in a larger corporation with systematic safety systems.

I work at a multi billion dollar corporation doing multi billion dollar projects and we do exactly as you are discussing. JSAs, PJRAs, etc ad nauseam.

I totally agree that in a normal OSHA work site, securing a potential energy source prior to doing the work is the correct action. But I also believe that there is likely no easy or reasonable way to perform this test if any way at all.

It would be similar to troubleshooting electrical equipment. Most of the time it has to be done energized. Just the nature of the job at hand.
 
hockeyrcks9901 said:
SmashTime,

I get the impression that Tom is a small field pilot, not in a larger corporation with systematic safety systems.

I work at a multi billion dollar corporation doing multi billion dollar projects and we do exactly as you are discussing. JSAs, PJRAs, etc ad nauseam.

I totally agree that in a normal OSHA work site, securing a potential energy source prior to doing the work is the correct action. But I also believe that there is likely no easy or reasonable way to perform this test if any way at all.

It would be similar to troubleshooting electrical equipment. Most of the time it has to be done energized. Just the nature of the job at hand.
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I get what your saying, I'm looking at the smaller picture for Tom as well. In a civil court they'd ask what he did to prevent it, a small piece of paper like a JSA would be his most valuable asset. If I knew what he was doing, I'd already have it written. But I don't, I'm just trying to offer a little bit of "CYA"***for Tom. Even if it's not needed, it sure would help when trying to defend.
 
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Man, some of you guys have generous mechanics. I'm usually the hold on to the prop guy when doing annuals on my plane. Of course my mechanic is a 120 lb. Kenyan, and the prop has a much harder time trying to toss my 275 lb. arse ;)
 
SmashTime said:
I get what your saying, I'm looking at the smaller picture for Tom as well. In a civil court they'd ask what he did to prevent it, a small piece of paper like a JSA would be his most valuable asset. If I knew what he was doing, I'd already have it written. But I don't, I'm just trying to offer a little bit of "CYA"***for Tom. Even if it's not needed, it sure would help when trying to defend.
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Yer making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 
SmashTime said:
Oh my bad, let me know when a guy gets his head chopped off in your shop.

Just some blood and stitches is a mole hill. My bad.
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Dude, for chits sakes, he feels bad enough, owner wanted to play AP and got a few stitches from a prop, life goes on.
 
James331 said:
Dude, for chits sakes, he feels bad enough, owner wanted to play AP and got a few stitches from a prop, life goes on.
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He wanted discussion (since he posted) and he got it.

Tried to offer a simple way to divert responsibility back to the injured party for future reference and he acts like it isn't a big deal.

Should I just not say anything because it will hurt his feelings?

This is the Internet. Pull your big boy pants up.
 
It's all good man.

Just saying, if you want to play mechanic in a shop don't cry over bloody knuckles.
 
James331 said:
It's all good man.

Just saying, if you want to play mechanic in a shop don't cry over bloody knuckles.
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Oh I heard that 100%

I'm just saying if they wanna play AP, make them sign the paper. That way they don't get paid for making a mistake at your place of business. That's my main point.
 
So, what does it say about a pilot who does not understand the dangers of a prop when there is pressure in a cylinder? After all, pressure in cylinders is basically what powers an engine which turns the prop in the first place. Or don't they teach basic engine theory to pilots anymore?
 
James331 said:
It's all good man.

Just saying, if you want to play mechanic in a shop don't cry over bloody knuckles.
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I think a lot of it comes down to how well did the guy really know the risk?

Knowing the environment that SmashTime plays in (as I do too), even scraped knuckles are investigated with significant effort as typically scraped knuckles are a leading indicator of bigger problems. Most often poor risk assessment.

For example, I recently helped someone on the side of the road change a flat tire. The tire iron slipped off the lug nut and my knuckles went crashing into the pavement. Hurt like a SOB and left my knuckles bloody. In an industrial environment, that could have been me pushing on a wrench towards a potentially much more serious hazard and resulted in a much more serious injury. At my workplace, I would have been coached on proper body positioning and evaluating line of fire hazards to ensure that if the wrench slips off the item being torqued, my hand doesn't hit anything.

Was it just bloody knuckles? In my case: yes; but we have had mechanics sent to the ER due to a wrench slipping off of a nut hitting them in the face, causing extensive damage to their teeth requiring reconstructive dental surgery. Is that their own fault? Absolutely. Do I have to answer to 10 manager above me and my customer about why an employee received a Recordable OSHA Injury and spend the next 200,000 man hours working to reduce the Recordable Injury Frequency Rate back down to an acceptable level? Yes.

Understanding that every near miss, every first aid, every injury can teach a lesson that may be applicable to prevent other injuries is a weird lesson that took me a few years in an industrial environment to understand. It's exactly why we can spend 2,000,000 man hours working in an operating facility and not use a single band aid.
 
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SmashTime said:
Don't post your dirty laundry in an effort to direct blame to your customers for getting hurt in your shop. :confused:
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get real, I was in his hangar. I do not have a shop.Nice of you to consider it dirty laundry when I post a thread that you can learn by.
 
Tom-D said:
get real, I was in his hangar. I do not have a shop.Nice of you to consider it dirty laundry when I post a thread that you can learn by.
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Man, you're hard headed. I'm done. Good luck.
 
SmashTime said:
I get what your saying, I'm looking at the smaller picture for Tom as well. In a civil court they'd ask what he did to prevent it, a small piece of paper like a JSA would be his most valuable asset. If I knew what he was doing, I'd already have it written. But I don't, I'm just trying to offer a little bit of "CYA"***for Tom. Even if it's not needed, it sure would help when trying to defend.
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I agree. Any mechanic that allows owner/operator to assist should have a CYA release from responsibility.
 
Tom-D said:
OK you are the safety professional, tell us how to stop people from making mistakes.
the owner knew the dangers of being in the prop arc, he new the dangers of moving the prop when its under pressure ... yet he did.
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That safety pro has probably saved a few fingers, toes and maybe even a life or two. Make fun of him if you want, but if he saves a life, no one and I mean no one knows it because the accident didn't happen. All he has is a few numbers on a sheet of paper. That job is a thankless job. You try to talk some mechanic into actually working a solution to a dangerous situation when he refuses to study it and you know the only person on the planet that can solve the problem is that mechanic. My stomach stayed in knots the whole time. I will take design any day. Everyone wants into design, no one wants to help the safety guy.
 
SmashTime said:
I'm not a mechanic, but I am a Safety Professional. I'd ask you what is the best practice for this task and was it being followed?
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Not even close to the best practice according to Lycoming. You don't have to read past the first half of the first page. There is no way to rock the prop back and forth if you are using Tom's method of balancing on TDC and it clearly says in a caution to not let the prop swing. I am betting the second caution was not followed of using gloves or rags either.
http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/t...I 1191A (09-28-1998)/Cylinder Compression.pdf
 
yetti said:
Not even close to the best practice according to Lycoming. You don't have to read past the first half of the first page. There is no way to rock the prop back and forth if you are using Tom's method of balancing on TDC and it clearly says in a caution to not let the prop swing. I am betting the second caution was not followed of using gloves or rags either.
http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications/serviceinstructions/SI 1191A (09-28-1998)/Cylinder Compression.pdf
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Ahh but the customer knew the best practice so it wasn't Tom's fault.....
 
yetti said:
Not even close to the best practice according to Lycoming. You don't have to read past the first half of the first page. There is no way to rock the prop back and forth if you are using Tom's method of balancing on TDC and it clearly says in a caution to not let the prop swing. I am betting the second caution was not followed of using gloves or rags either.
http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications/serviceinstructions/SI 1191A (09-28-1998)/Cylinder Compression.pdf
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Textron Lycoming SB ,, yeah right.
Ask your self, when you bring the piston up to TDC on the compression stroke shouldn't the rings already be seated? after all it is building pressure as it comes to TDC other wise you couldn't feel TDC.

And when the piston is correctly set at TDC and is staying there by itself, why do you need to touch it while taking the readings?
isn't that kinda self defeating?
 
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SmashTime said:
You're the task supervisor. It's that simple. ..
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No, that's your idea, I was doing the job, the person hurt was only looking at the gages to see what the readings were.
You still haven't answered my question, how is any of these forms going to stop impulsive actions by others even when they are already trained in the task? this guy knows how to do compression checks he has completed many in the past. and has already told me it was a dumb move to touch the prop.
 
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Tom-D said:
No, that's your idea, I was doing the job, the person hurt was only looking at the gages to see what the readings were.
You still haven't answered my question, how is any of these forms going to stop impulsive actions by others even when they are already trained in the task? this guy knows how to do compression checks he has completed many in the past. and has already told me it was a dumb move to touch the prop.
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Here's something that even you can't try to argue against.....

Who signs the log books as the mechanic who completed said compression tests? If it's your name Tom, then who on earth could possibly be considered the Task Supervisor?

Golly, I think that's you...isn't it?

Instead of blaming a mistake on your customer, why not try to change your complacent behavior so no one ever gets hurt while your working on a plane again. It's as easy and making them aware, you're the largest piece to the injury puzzle and you dont even have the decency, nay... courage to say "I'll never let this happen again."

You just wanna argue and get mad because you thought we'd all jump on the "your customers an idiot bandwagon". Well, we aren't buying that, you should of been more assertive and told him to get back or be more aware.

If I'm in the presence of a professional, I trust them to let me know what's going on. Just like I trust the CFI teaching me to fly, your hard headedness won't change anything and I fear this accident won't change your outlook either.

THAT'S REALLY SCARY.


Edit: The forms (JSA'S) tell you the job steps, dangers of each step and how to mitigate them. They aren't magic buffers against stupid, but they do bring attention to the hazards so you don't have to say "I should a told you about that" after a prop slices his head.

It will also vindicate you in a civil trial if someone was to say "he didn't tell me anything" because you go over it and have them sign it. However, if you are grossly negligent, nothing can save you.
 
Tom-D said:
Textron Lycoming SB ,, yeah right.
Ask your self, when you bring the piston up to TDC on the compression stroke shouldn't the rings already be seated? after all it is building pressure as it comes to TDC other wise you couldn't feel TDC.
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So I did ask myself this question. The difference being when you are compression testing they are not under pressure when they are coming up. The rings are just along for the ride. Adding pressure and jiggling them would seat the rings back down against the bottom of the groove on the piston. The three A&Ps I worked with seem to do it according to the manufacture. When I help it was easier to stand opposite sides. With me making sure my butt did not go forward of the firewall. As the rings were seated, the reading did change slightly and come up a bit. Everyone was clear on their commands and verified each others actions. When you have an accident, most people reevaluate what they were doing and update the process to ensure it won't happen again.
 
Just fer yer entertainment...

80 PSI is not that far from a typical Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) of a naturally aspirated engine running at 75% power.

Geometry helps when you are near TDC, and the orifice helps keep the pressure down during the expansion stroke if it does get away.
 
yetti said:
... When you have an accident, most people reevaluate what they were doing and update the process to ensure it won't happen again.
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Tom D is not most people. The fact that Tom D held up the gauge for the owner to lean through the prop ARC to see the reading doesn't register with him as a contributing cause for this accident. Even allowing the owner to watch a compression check in close proximity without adequate supervision/training doesn't register as his responsibility. In his world the entire fault falls on the owner for touching the prop. I'm sure he thinks the OWNER learned a valuable lesson which he wanted to share with us all. Thanks, Tom, we learned more than you can imagine.
 
Witmo said:
Tom D is not most people. The fact that Tom D held up the gauge for the owner to lean through the prop ARC to see the reading doesn't register with him as a contributing cause for this accident. Even allowing the owner to watch a compression check in close proximity without adequate supervision/training doesn't register as his responsibility. In his world the entire fault falls on the owner for touching the prop. I'm sure he thinks the OWNER learned a valuable lesson which he wanted to share with us all. Thanks, Tom, we learned more than you can imagine.
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Sums up my thoughts on this incident. Sometimes you have to take positive steps and corrective action to prevent a child from hurting their self.
 
mscard88 said:
Sums up my thoughts on this incident. Sometimes you have to take positive steps and corrective action to prevent a child from hurting their self.
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How did you make the association of this owner being a child? kinda far fetched.
 
Witmo said:
Tom D is not most people. The fact that Tom D held up the gauge for the owner to lean through the prop ARC to see the reading doesn't register with him as a contributing cause for this accident.
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nor should it, you make statements about things that you have no possibility of knowing. You weren't there, you didn't see what happened, yet you know every thing about it.
But as always your bias shows.
Show me why I should have known the owner was going to touch the prop? specially when he is well versed in the procedure and dangers involved?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Just fer yer entertainment...

80 PSI is not that far from a typical Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) of a naturally aspirated engine running at 75% power.
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Got a reference for that. The old BMEP gauges in the old radial engines showed much higher pressures than that.
 
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