Currency after Instrument Proficiency Check

SoCal 182 Driver

SoCal 182 Driver

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SoCal 182 Driver
Friends - I was signed-off for an Instrument Proficiency Check (IPC) on May 18. I do not have six approaches in the last six months.

Am I legal to fly an instrument approach on November 30?

Thanks!
 
Answers:
1) Yes
2) Don't

One nugget I've taken to heart from my Instrument DPE: "IFR proficiency fades quickly, is very perishable".

I try to make practice approaches a part of regular flying. Take a Safety Pilot up, fly some approaches at an airport, buy him/her a burger, catch up on things, switch seats and be his/her SP. Make it a game to be six in three.
 
WDD said:
I try to make practice approaches a part of regular flying. Take a Safety Pilot up, fly some approaches at an airport, buy him/her a burger, catch up on things, switch seats and be his/her SP. Make it a game to be six in three.
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I'm going to echo that. For years, my friend Chris and I would get together once a month after work and fly a few approaches each. Then we'd go out to dinner. He and our flights are among the things I miss most since I left.

But that's still bare currency unless you make the effort to change things up to make proficiency exercises. Toss in a "partial panel" exercise now and then. Go some place different. If all you do is RNAV, do an ILS so you get used to the need and timing of CDI switching. Learn how to vector - you probably won't get good at it, but it will pay dividends in situational awareness.

If we're talking proficiency rather than currency, there is also something to be said about periodic flights with a CFII, and I'm not necessarily referring to IPCs every 6 months.
 
Ventucky Red said:
Currency and proficiency are two different things. And that is all I have to day about that.
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But it really needs more.

Currency ≠ Proficiency is a truism that is easy to say. But it takes thought, a little imagination, and effort to accomplish.

People usually think about this in terms of safety pilots and hoods. But don't forget the importance of filing, picking up clearances, and dealing with the changes and curveballs ATC will throw you, even in CAVU conditions with no hood.
 
OP here.

I wanted to add a little clarity to my original post. I've done several approaches over the last six months, but did not have all of the requirements to be legal. Thus, I opted for the IPC. I flew several approaches with my CFII over the past weekend, and will do more today (along with unusual attitudes and holds).

I totally agree with the concept that "current" does not necessarily equate to "proficient," and my thinking is that between my own approaches, and the work with the CFII, I'll be OK. My IFR work is generally just punching through the stratus layer that sometimes hovers over my home airport.

This has been a great discussion. I truly appreciate all of the insightful comments. Keep 'em coming!
 
Nice. What feedback from your CFII do you appreciate the most?
 
midlifeflyer said:
If we're talking proficiency rather than currency, there is also something to be said about periodic flights with a CFII, and I'm not necessarily referring to IPCs every 6 months.
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All of the above and this ^^^^^^, too. I try to get dual time with emergency procedures and a couple or more of actual/simulated approaches. I also get an annual IPC in addition to that.
 
I'm newly minted IFR rated.

My plan is to file IFR a lot. I have been. I can't count the solo approaches in VMC, but I don't care. The approach is just one part of the equasion, being in the system is another part of it. I can do that part solo. I still do the approach when I file. I will keep up on the currency part as well, but I do like the practice of solo (or not solo) filing.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
I'm not sure I can point to one thing specifically. It was just several little things . No showstoppers, but little things to make my approaches cleaner .
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Sometimes CFIIs have to probe a bit to go a little further. FWIW, I've referred to them before but I have this little list of GPS Tasks Pilots Don't Know How to Do. They aren't "ha-ha-gotchass" I made up. All are real world tasks. The concept of a list started with two events: a fatal crash in my area and a call from an experience IFR pilot asking about a situation they handled but were not sure it was the best way. These are not in order of their addition to the list.

I try to use at least one on every recurrent training session or IPC.


GpsTasksPilotsDontKnow.png
 
You know, what I found for me is that being IFR proficient also has much to do with how proficient I am with the system I have (mine is the GTN 650 xi). Those times early in my IFR flying when I wasn't as sharp was because I was distracted too much by not working the GNT like the back of my hand, working the GTN too slowly.

I's suggest that spending an hour, heck even a half hour before each SP practice approach flight with the GTN simulator is necessary. And work in your ForeFlight, I Fly, etc. as well since you'll be using those for the plates. Make a game out of it - run through your planned flight, and then toss in things like mentioned above.

"Hold at this fix", "proceed direct to XYZ fix", etc.
Load the full approach, and know how to quickly bring it up to go direct to a fix.
What is activate a leg vs direct to?
What if you go missed, go to the hold, and then are cleared? How do you then reactivate the approach?
What information does the GTN give you about altitudes at each fix?
You're planning on runway 01, but when you get to the fix the wind changes, and you need ATC to get you to 19 approach instead. How do you manage your I Pad to get the plate as well as change the GTN?

I'd go so far as to say a ground school session, game show style with students would be helpful. My IFR training? No instruction on the GTN. That was a miss IMHO.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
Friends - I was signed-off for an Instrument Proficiency Check (IPC) on May 18. I do not have six approaches in the last six months.

Am I legal to fly an instrument approach on November 30?

Thanks!
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Legally proficient, yes, but since you don’t know the basic instrument regs your IFR competency not so much.
 
WDD said:
My IFR training? No instruction on the GTN. That was a miss IMHO.
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The worst part is that the avionics system knowledge required for even the instrument checkride is very limited. It's all local approaches you've done before. Plus, there's a very understandable tendency to teach to the checkride. Even the one dual cross country is in some ways artificial. There is a very good chance that, even if one gets their rating with the equipment, they are not ready to fly in the system with it.

That last item on my list? The reason I was shocked is that, in all three cases that ;ed to my listing it, it was rated pilots who learned on the equipment. And one was a CFII.
 
Flyxaos said:
I still do the approach when I file
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Accept visual approaches as well. They are a real part of real world IFR too, and one not often covered in training.

And don’t forget cancelling on VFR days into nontowered airports. If you're really good you’ll cancel before ATC clears you for the approach.
 
midlifeflyer said:
But it really needs more.

Currency ≠ Proficiency is a truism that is easy to say. But it takes thought, a little imagination, and effort to accomplish.

People usually think about this in terms of safety pilots and hoods. But don't forget the importance of filing, picking up clearances, and dealing with the changes and curveballs ATC will throw you, even in CAVU conditions with no hood.
Click to expand...

I was once told the IFR flying is not flying, it is a state of mind that requires nothing less than your A-game... and that is all I have to say about that...
 
Ventucky Red said:
I was once told the IFR flying is not flying, it is a state of mind that requires nothing less than your A-game... and that is all I have to say about that...
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Totally depends on the weather no? Climbing through a 4K foot broken layer compared to shooting an approach to 200 and a half?
 
bonefishpete said:
Totally depends on the weather no? Climbing through a 4K foot broken layer compared to shooting an approach to 200 and a half?
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I'd say that still requires you to be on your toes. Approaching things as if any IMC can get you into trouble is a good way to fly IMHO.
 
bonefishpete said:
Totally depends on the weather no? Climbing through a 4K foot broken layer compared to shooting an approach to 200 and a half?
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Maybe, if you think of manual aircraft control as the only important thing. But while aircraft control is very important and is a bigger deal with greater consequences for failure on that approach to minimums, stick and rudder aircraft control represents only about 15% of what IFR flight is about.

The rest is all understanding procedures and, these days, avionics. Guess where I see more errors during IPCs and other recurrent training.
 
bonefishpete said:
Totally depends on the weather no? Climbing through a 4K foot broken layer compared to shooting an approach to 200 and a half?
Click to expand...

It starts long before that... and shooting an approach with a 200 and a 1/2.. is way below my personal minimums - you do have those.. right?
 
Ventucky Red said:
It starts long before that... and shooting an approach with a 200 and a 1/2.. is way below my personal minimums - you do have those.. right?
Click to expand...
Exactly my point. Does one have to be totally proficient for a low approach on every IFR flight that is 3K broken and 10 miles?
 
TCABM said:
Define proficient. Does that include SVFR procedures?
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To answer being proficient to safely do what you want to do. Be it a cross wind landing or a approach to 200 and a half. There are degrees of proficiency.

Are you saying if I'm not proficient at 200 and a half I shouldn't fly IFR at all?
 
WDD said:
You know, what I found for me is that being IFR proficient also has much to do with how proficient I am with the system I have (mine is the GTN 650 xi). Those times early in my IFR flying when I wasn't as sharp was because I was distracted too much by not working the GNT like the back of my hand, working the GTN too slowly.

I's suggest that spending an hour, heck even a half hour before each SP practice approach flight with the GTN simulator is necessary. And work in your ForeFlight, I Fly, etc. as well since you'll be using those for the plates. Make a game out of it - run through your planned flight, and then toss in things like mentioned above.

"Hold at this fix", "proceed direct to XYZ fix", etc.
Load the full approach, and know how to quickly bring it up to go direct to a fix.
What is activate a leg vs direct to?
What if you go missed, go to the hold, and then are cleared? How do you then reactivate the approach?
What information does the GTN give you about altitudes at each fix?
You're planning on runway 01, but when you get to the fix the wind changes, and you need ATC to get you to 19 approach instead. How do you manage your I Pad to get the plate as well as change the GTN?

I'd go so far as to say a ground school session, game show style with students would be helpful. My IFR training? No instruction on the GTN. That was a miss IMHO.
Click to expand...

There needs to be easier methods for creating a legal sim using the same equipment on the ground.
 
bonefishpete said:
Exactly my point. Does one have to be totally proficient for a low approach on every IFR flight that is 3K broken and 10 miles?
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We might be arguing personal semantics, so I’ll say that by my definition and what I’ve seen in IPCs yes. In accident reports, too.

You seem to be limiting your definition of IFR proficiency to the last 500’ of an instrument approach to minimums. That is a very small subset of an instrument flight. The errors I see don’t happen there often. Even with rusty pilots, the hand-flying skills come back first and quickly. Accident reports (and even YouTube accident videos) are filled with instrument errors and fatalities that happen outside if your tiny window. The single most common IFR pilot deviation, year after year after year, is busting altitude assignments.

Can one “get away” without being proficient for low approaches if one only files and flies under IFR in VFR conditions? Or, without being that extreme, very high personal minimums? Sure. But I think you are making a mistake if that’s your sole measure of IFR proficiency.
 
bonefishpete said:
To answer being proficient to safely do what you want to do. Be it a cross wind landing or a approach to 200 and a half. There are degrees of proficiency.

Are you saying if I'm not proficient at 200 and a half I shouldn't fly IFR at all?
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I made no statement on your standard of proficiency for you, I just asked what your standard was.

Personal proficiency standards go hand in hand with personal limits.
 
My personal perspective is that I make no distinctions between low IFR and Lite IFR -- It's simply IFR and I train to standard where I'm comfortable going to ILS/LPV mins. That said flying to mins and breaking out then landing, IMO is the easy part. The hard part is being ready and mentally equipped to make decisions (ie state your intentions) when things don't go as planned when you're IMC or have to enter IMC for a safe outcome. It could be going missed, or a lengthy complex re-route, or an emergency. For me that's what proficiency is all about while currency is more about checking off legal boxes.
 
I understand. Most crashes lately have been simple LOC in clouds. I do think too many pilots are using the AP too much for IFR flying. Seems the AP kicks off then pilots are unable to fly the aircraft or get preoccupied with resetting the AP instead of flying the gauges.
 
I've seen way too many arguments about personal minimums which make it sound like it's solely about manual flight proficiency. If you have personal minimums, as the saying goes, it means you aren't proficient to fly to minimums. IOW, if you can't do what's legal, it means you aren't proficient. I don't see them that way.

Let's take it out of the "minimums" arena. There are rated pilots in the mountain west who will say they won't fly in IMC over the Rockies. Others say they won't fly IFR at night. Does that mean that they understand both human and equipment limitations, make an assessment of risk factors, and make a judgment about the risks they will accept and won't. Or, does that mean the pilots aren't proficient IFR pilots. Actually, I'd argue the opposite. Those kinds of risk assessments is exactly what true proficiency is all about.

Go back to minimums. If anyone is thinking that there are zero risks to an approach to minimums, and it is not something for the exercise of judgment, I think you are making a big mistake. I'm been flying IFR for over 30 years. I'm 74 years old and have personal minimums higher than my first solo flight under IFR, a one-way 1.3 hour cross country flight in which I flew in the clouds for 1.0, the latter 0.8 at night. Basic 172 with nothing but dual VORs and an ADF. Not even DME. The flight ended when I broke out at night on the ILS 350' above minimums. I might not even begin that flight today. Nevertheless, I consider myself a far more proficient IFR pilot today than I was then. YRMV.
 
TCABM said:
I made no statement on your standard of proficiency for you, I just asked what your standard was.

Personal proficiency standards go hand in hand with personal limits.
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Right now not having flown in 3 months I’d say 500 and three miles.
 
bonefishpete said:
Exactly my point. Does one have to be totally proficient for a low approach on every IFR flight that is 3K broken and 10 miles?
Click to expand...

I guess not. Right up until it happens. Which it did for me. Took a student up in 2K ceilings one evening for some actual. By the time we came back home it was 200 & 1/2. At night. Not in the forecast at all.
Glad I was proficient…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
bonefishpete said:
Exactly my point. Does one have to be totally proficient for a low approach on every IFR flight that is 3K broken and 10 miles?
Click to expand...

We practice all the approaches to minimums while working under the hood for our currency requirements. Just because I have higher personal minimums doesn't mean I am not proficient at it.

In answer to your question, I am going to give you a hard YES.. but that is my attitude towards flying and not the expressed option of our advertisers.
 
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Personal IFR mins have to do with tolerance for say risk of ice, or night flight over terrain or water, seem quite reasonable and pilot's choice.

Flying to 200 and 1/2 is what every IFR rated pilot was once able to do. If you can't any longer, than you are not proficient. Conditions change rapidly - what if 500 and 2 becomes 200 and 1/2 on the way?

And please don't ask to be "taught" the GPS box - sit down and figure it out yourself. It's not teachable - like most computers there's more than one way to do something, particularly on the 650 and up. Read the manual four times, especially the approach section. It's actually all there. Put an aircraft on ground power if you can; the sim is ok too though not as good. The number of times I've been up with rated pilots (after mistakenly accepting to "help" them better learn their navigator) who can barely fumble through the device while flying is amazing. Remember, often the fastest way to fix a messed up approach load is to reload it - six seconds on a typical GNS (ugh, the lack of elegance, made by IT geeks) or GTN (at least you can tell some pilots were consulted first).
 
midlifeflyer said:
Sometimes CFIIs have to probe a bit to go a little further. FWIW, I've referred to them before but I have this little list of GPS Tasks Pilots Don't Know How to Do. They aren't "ha-ha-gotchass" I made up. All are real world tasks. The concept of a list started with two events: a fatal crash in my area and a call from an experience IFR pilot asking about a situation they handled but were not sure it was the best way. These are not in order of their addition to the list.

I try to use at least one on every recurrent training session or IPC.


GpsTasksPilotsDontKnow.png
Click to expand...
This is great! I practice some of these, but will bring the list on Monday when I do my monthly instrument practice.
 
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