Crash at Reagan National Airport, DC. Helicopter crash into airliner.

[Roller]

The problem is that there are no layers of safety in visual separation. It is entirely put upon one human being to not f up, and humans f up a lot.

It's possible for any pilot to see the wrong aircraft and visually separate themselves from it. It's that much more likely when you're on NVGs and you don't have the field of view that you would visually.

I think if we don't begin to prohibit visual separation on NVGs we've missed a big point of this whole thing.


And yet, there is no way to 100% verify that you are looking at the correct traffic. Based on the numbers from the following post, separation gets down to less than 1500 feet laterally and 200 feet vertically a little over twice per month. Nobody looked at that and thought "Gee, maybe we shouldn't be cutting things so close because we're only one additional risk factor away from a crash"?




Not these particular pilots, but the entire group of military brass, air traffic controllers, and pilots who were aware of the risky situation here and did nothing to change it.

Depends on the traffic

But if you are not 100% sure you have the traffic, don’t say you do

Might be a issue with the low level of experience many mil pilots have, maybe they should have to comply with FAA unrestricted ATP mins to fly in CONUS C, B, etc airspace

We all like the claim our mil pilots are sky gods, but my student pilots would not even fly they route, and by students I’m talking pre solo to post ATP, I train my folks to use common sense, ask them to fly that low below arriving airliners and they’d deny it. Just common sense

 

[Piperonca]

I think if we don't begin to prohibit visual separation on NVGs we've missed a big point of this whole thing.

You got something there.

 

[Roller]

As I recall the old sets were line holding two toilet paper tubes as binoculars

 

[RyanShort1]

You got something there.

Yep, and maybe even restrict visual separation with aircraft that aren’t above your altitude by some reasonable number at night in urban areas. It can be quite hard to maintain contact visually even with good eyes at night with the amount of light pollution and flashing lights in urban areas and plenty of people have degraded vision at night and forget the FAA guidance on night vision limitations.

 

[traumamed]

Buried 22 minutes into the NTSB's briefing yesterday, it was stated that the CRJ did not have ADS-B in. Maybe that should be a requirement for Part 121 ops. Military may not be on ADS-B, but within 20ish miles you can see their anonymized TIS-B broadcast.

Last week, I was flying into KHWO on an IFR flight plan and Approach cleared me for the RNAV 10R. It was VMC, and there was a ton of VFR traffic. I received no traffic advisory, no "you're #2 behind this guy," no spacing request, no speed request, nothing. Shortly after passing the IF, I got a traffic alert on my GTN750 for a plane less than two miles ahead of me and a couple hundred feet below me. It was a Cessna 150 that appeared to be on a long final, and I had a 50 kt closing speed on it, still nearly 10 miles away from the runway threshold. Right then I got casually switched from Approach to Tower with no warning about the traffic ahead of me. I immediately started slowing, and on my initial call to Tower I advised I was slowing for the traffic ahead of me. I got a response of, "yeah... uh... thanks, traffic on final ahead of you one mile, Cessna, you're #2 behind him, slow as much as practicable, cleared to land." I would have never seen him because he was below my nose. I couldn't hear him talking because he was never on my Approach frequency.

I preach about ADS-B because it has literally saved my life more than once. Maybe it doesn't matter as much in Wyoming, but traffic conflicts are a real issue in parts of our country. The NTSB prelim stated that there were 85 occurrences of near misses within 1500 ft laterally and 200 ft vertically in the past three years in DCA airspace. Be careful about trusting your life to ATC or VFR traffic in your vicinity.

 

[FlightmechH3]

As I recall the old sets were line holding two toilet paper tubes as binoculars

Yes, we were using the ANVIS 6 (if I remember correctly) back in 1990, which was ahead of it's time. Units were probably $20k each.

I spotted a pinpoint glow at 20nm down in the Bahamas. Turned out it was a guy smoking a cigarette on a darkened sailboat on a moonless night. We were flying dark and buzzed him.

I was impressed with them because I thought he was a mile away. The sand hitting the leading edge of the rotors would sparkle during landings.

But over Clearwater, FL? Heck no. Total washout.

 

[Velocity173]

The NVG usage is getting an undeserved bad rap here. Yes, they do have their limitations which have been discussed but there’s no way in **** I’d run these routes without NVGs. Unaided at those altitudes would be suicide. High tension power lines, unlit towers, flying over glassy water with little contrast. Prior to NVGs in HEMS they had an unusually high accident record at night. It’s gone down significantly after NVGs were adopted.

NVGs use doesn’t mean that’s the only thing they can see. There’s nothing keeping them from scanning beneath the NVGs. In fact, it’s a requirement. It’s only a 40 degree FoV so you can easily see around the goggles for traffic. I do it all the time. And yes, the radar altimeter is easy to see as well since you’re not looking down in the cockpit with the NVGs to see the panel. They’re focused from about 100 ft to infinity. Also, if the IP wanted to evaluated a task unaided that’s not an “NG” requirement on the task list, they could easily have them flip the goggles up. The whole “conversation that must take place” in order to do that isn’t as complicated as the NTSB makes it out to be.

And give the VIP mission a rest already. Several different operators fly these routes. Friend of mine has a FB profile pic flying in the FBI with the Washington Monument in the background. Coast Guard (below) flys there all the time. My old unit deployed there to enforce security around the capital. I know guys who have flown civ MEDEVAC ops there. The 12th is just one of many. It would be naive to believe the center of the nation’s government agencies wouldn’t have a need to use helicopters in and around DC.

Helicopters of DC

A guide to understanding the helicopters of Washington, DC

helicoptersofdc.com

 

[GaryM]

But if you are not 100% sure you have the traffic, don’t say you do

Unfortunately, it is possible for humans to be both “100% sure” and also dead wrong.

 

[Lindberg]

And give the VIP mission a rest already.

When you have an ax to grind, you can never rest.

 

[Salty]

Buried 22 minutes into the NTSB's briefing yesterday, it was stated that the CRJ did not have ADS-B in. Maybe that should be a requirement for Part 121 ops. Military may not be on ADS-B, but within 20ish miles you can see their anonymized TIS-B broadcast.

Last week, I was flying into KHWO on an IFR flight plan and Approach cleared me for the RNAV 10R. It was VMC, and there was a ton of VFR traffic. I received no traffic advisory, no "you're #2 behind this guy," no spacing request, no speed request, nothing. Shortly after passing the IF, I got a traffic alert on my GTN750 for a plane less than two miles ahead of me and a couple hundred feet below me. It was a Cessna 150 that appeared to be on a long final, and I had a 50 kt closing speed on it, still nearly 10 miles away from the runway threshold. Right then I got casually switched from Approach to Tower with no warning about the traffic ahead of me. I immediately started slowing, and on my initial call to Tower I advised I was slowing for the traffic ahead of me. I got a response of, "yeah... uh... thanks, traffic on final ahead of you one mile, Cessna, you're #2 behind him, slow as much as practicable, cleared to land." I would have never seen him because he was below my nose. I couldn't hear him talking because he was never on my Approach frequency.

I preach about ADS-B because it has literally saved my life more than once. Maybe it doesn't matter as much in Wyoming, but traffic conflicts are a real issue in parts of our country. The NTSB prelim stated that there were 85 occurrences of near misses within 1500 ft laterally and 200 ft vertically in the past three years in DCA airspace. Be careful about trusting your life to ATC or VFR traffic in your vicinity.

ADSB in is grossly insufficient to prevent this accident. It would have told the pilot little more than they already knew.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Only if you think that evidence causes crime.

So where’s the logical fallacy in disagreeing with it?

 

[dmspilot]

So where’s the logical fallacy in disagreeing with it?

You can disagree with it all you want. You can't use a logical fallacy as evidence that you're right.

 

[Roller]

When you have an ax to grind, you can never rest.

Do you not have a axe to grind at stopping stupid crashes?

Safety is not a real thing, nothing will ever be 100% safe, but this crash is one that never should have happened and has been foreseeable to anyone who has flown that area

 

[Ed Haywood]

The notion that the VIP flights are for Senators and Congressmen is particular nonsense. The great majority of them fly out of Reagan National, which is a 10 minute car or metro ride from the Capitol.

The CoG mission is for emergency evacuation. There are no Congress critters on training and rehearsal flights.

 

[RyanShort1]

ADSB in is grossly insufficient to prevent this accident. It would have told the pilot little more than they already knew.

I think I disagree. I bet they would’ve had a few more seconds to acquire and identify the helicopter - perhaps in time for a faster climb as it appears they were doing in the last seconds.

 

[Roller]

The notion that the VIP flights are for Senators and Congressmen is particular nonsense. The great majority of them fly out of Reagan National, which is a 10 minute car or metro ride from the Capitol.

The CoG mission is for emergency evacuation. There are no Congress critters on training and rehearsal flights.

Sounds like living in a big metro city is not on mission

Why are they not living in base housing at the base they would be so critically required at?

 

[MauleSkinner]

You can disagree with it all you want. You can't use a logical fallacy as evidence that you're right.

Seems to me that illustrating the error of a logical fallacy with a logical fallacy would work.

 

[Ed Haywood]

ADSB in is grossly insufficient to prevent this accident. It would have told the pilot little more than they already knew.

If the helo had ADS-B In, it *might* have cued the crew that they had identified the wrong aircraft. Maybe the copilot says "hey, we should be seeing two," and they scan a little wider with the 40 degree FOV tubes on their faces. Or maybe not.

In the end, this was a gross procedural failure. The routes repeatedly put two aircraft in a dangerous situation and relied on human skill to avert catastrophe. It was inevitable that the human factors holes in the Swiss cheese would line up.

Question for discussion: do you think this procedure is safe enough in daytime? I think probably so.

 

[PastZTL]

In the end, this was a gross procedural failure. The routes repeatedly put two aircraft in a dangerous situation and relied on human skill to avert catastrophe. It was inevitable that the human factors holes in the Swiss cheese would line up.

Aren't you describing the use of visual separation globally? It puts the responsibility of one pilot to separate themselves from the other aircraft by human skill.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Aren't you describing the use of visual separation globally? It puts the responsibility of one pilot to separate themselves from the other aircraft by human skill.

Yes, and in most circumstances visual separation is sufficiently reliable to achieve an acceptable level of risk. We mitigate that risk further through procedural means such as VFR altitudes, flight following, and standard traffic patterns. As traffic density increases, we further mitigate risk by establishing controlled airspace and providing ATC.

But at some point the weight of circumstances becomes an "intolerable risk," in the words of the NTSB. Look at all the risk factors here. Very high traffic density. Aircraft converging at greater than 90 degrees at virtually the same altitude. Night. Extreme light pollution. Both aircrew engaged in flight operations requiring intensive focus: one aircrew flying low level over water, the other intersecting and flying a precision approach.

It was only a matter of time before someone made a fatal mistake and visual separation failed.

 

[kyleb]

But if you are not 100% sure you have the traffic, don’t say you do

That's an impossible requirement. There is absolutely no way to be 100% sure you've ID'd the correct traffic.

 

[Ed Haywood]

That's an impossible requirement. There is absolutely no way to be 100% sure you've ID'd the correct traffic.

Especially at night, under NVG's, with a sea of background lights.

 

[Salty]

I think I disagree. I bet they would’ve had a few more seconds to acquire and identify the helicopter - perhaps in time for a faster climb as it appears they were doing in the last seconds.

You’re entitled to your opinion, but in my experience flying way slower than they were, adsb is far too slow to give them any more accurate data than what the controller had already given them. They already knew there was an aircraft and exactly where to look for it.

 

[dmspilot]

Seems to me that illustrating the error of a logical fallacy with a logical fallacy would work.

You didn't illustrate anything.

 

[Roller]

Especially at night, under NVG's, with a sea of background lights.

And that’s why many more experienced types wouldn’t issue, wouldn’t accept that instruction

 

[MauleSkinner]

You didn't illustrate anything.

I thought it was a logical fallacy, but if you say it wasn’t…

 

[RyanShort1]

You’re entitled to your opinion, but in my experience flying way slower than they were, adsb is far too slow to give them any more accurate data than what the controller had already given them. They already knew there was an aircraft and exactly where to look for it.

ADS-B is slower that I'd like, but sometimes faster and more accurate than radar, via controller, and given the young FO presumably in the right seat, I think it might've been the difference needed.

I've had traffic called at my 1 o'clock that was already at my 9 o'clock multiple times. If it's a slow refresh and delivery by the controller, you can definitely be looking in the wrong place, especially with winds and differences in heading. Some controllers are also better at it than others.

 

[PastZTL]

Night. Extreme light pollution.

Since I'm not a pilot (I hope that doesn't get me kicked out) could you help me understand something? As I recall, when the traffic was issued, the helo was at 2-300 feet and the CRJ was at 1,300 feet. From the perspective of the helo, would they be viewing the CRJ against the backdrop of the night sky? A lot of people talk about the background lighting of a large city, which I get if they were at or near the same altitude, but it's hard for me to envision if they were looking up.

It was only a matter of time before someone made a fatal mistake and visual separation failed.

If this is so obvious now, why wasn't it obvious before.

 

[FlightmechH3]

CoG flights are just cover for the real use of them: taxi rides.

C'mon. A ballistic missle would vaporize the place before anyone could pick up a phone. There are many bunkers in and around D.C. that our betters can huddle in. A '60 can only carry, what, 8 pax uncomfortably? *I spent a year on them* Can you imagine a crowd of elected officials fighting over seats? That would be funny.

Continuity of Government training to evacuate in an emergency? Nope. Just admit it's an Uber.

 

[TCABM]

… would they be viewing the CRJ against the backdrop of the night sky? …

In NVG/NOD land, those devices generally amplify ambient light 3000x or more. And then do more processing to prevent blooming/washout.

We didn’t use ANVS/6s; when I retired from a ground-based bomb dropping job, we used a white phosphor-based BNVDs and that was a decade ago and different technology, but with similar limitations in that the image you’re looking at is 2D and may be a bit distorted, but looking up you’re trying to pick out a moving light (landing light) against other lights with relative motion. This is part of why the technique to look under/around/tucking exists.

All those words to say a lot of presupposition exists around NVG usage because most folks don’t understand it. In reality, it’s a minor contributing factor.

A lot of things had to all go wrong for this accident to happen. The underlying question is whether relying on a human to ensure safe separation in a complex environment is still a valid presumption to make or do we need to go back and re-examine some of those methods to separate aircraft in challenging conditions.

 

[TCABM]

CoG flights are just cover for the real use of them….

Let’s examine this for just a minute.

The mission exists by law. Part of the post-9/11 packages of legislation. Whether I agree or disagree on the actual, tactical requirement matters not.

The real error is a culture that accepted a mission set due to complacency. CoG as a mission isn’t high risk because you’re moving bodies, CoG is high risk because it’s no fail.

Not to beat up the green machine, but HMX-1 is treated by USMC as a normal assignment in that you don’t apply and go through a screening process to get the job. 89th AW is different. So is the just about every other special mission assignment. I don’t know how 12AVN selects its pilots, but that could have been a contributing factor. So could a cultural assumption of mission risk.

There’s a lot to be angry about, for sure, but dispassionate analysis is called for because the fact is mid-airs and near-mid-airs are on the rise, regardless if it’s controlled airspace or not or if it’s experience or lack of, or if it’s any number of other reasons.

I’d be interested in Senge’s thoughts.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

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Not sure how much is left.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I think I disagree. I bet they would’ve had a few more seconds to acquire and identify the helicopter - perhaps in time for a faster climb as it appears they were doing in the last seconds.

They were already looking at the helicopter on TCAS. Adsb would have been redundant.

 

[Ed Haywood]

CoG flights are just cover for the real use of them: taxi rides.

C'mon. A ballistic missle would vaporize the place before anyone could pick up a phone. There are many bunkers in and around D.C. that our betters can huddle in. A '60 can only carry, what, 8 pax uncomfortably? *I spent a year on them* Can you imagine a crowd of elected officials fighting over seats? That would be funny.

Continuity of Government training to evacuate in an emergency? Nope. Just admit it's an Uber.

Nobody is catching a ride on COG training flights. VIP transport is a completely separate mission.

 

[geezer]

Velocity 173 said:

"The NVG usage is getting an undeserved bad rap here. Yes, they do have their limitations which have been discussed but there’s no way in **** I’d run these routes without NVGs. Unaided at those altitudes would be suicide. High tension power lines, unlit towers, flying over glassy water with little contrast. Prior to NVGs in HEMS they had an unusually high accident record at night. It’s gone down significantly after NVGs were adopted.

Please give the location of any power lines across the Potomac, between Dickerson MD, which is roughly east of Dulles, and just north of Quantico a mile. They are all under ground and water.

Unless the government has some unlit towers at their facilities on the MD shore, there are none north of the beltway bridge. The company I worked for had the Federally mandated redundant alarm systems, and reported tower light failure within minutes of failure for the crossings at Dickerson and Possum Point, north of Quantico.

Glassy smooth water is the ideal time to use radar altitude.

I have spent hundreds of hours on that stretch of the Potomac on sailboats, hundreds of helicopter flights have gone by at 50 feet+-.

At a radar altitude of 50 feet, we and they were very safe.

Of course, they have to remember to climb a little to clear the Wilson bridge, but it is both well lit, and full of traffic. No NVG's needed.

 

[3393RP]

But at some point the weight of circumstances becomes an "intolerable risk," in the words of the NTSB. Look at all the risk factors here. Very high traffic density. Aircraft converging at greater than 90 degrees at virtually the same altitude. Night. Extreme light pollution. Both aircrew engaged in flight operations requiring intensive focus: one aircrew flying low level over water, the other intersecting and flying a precision approach.

It was only a matter of time before someone made a fatal mistake and visual separation failed.

I'll add the fact the two aircraft were on different frequencies, and the RJ pilots had no idea the helicopter could potentially conflict with their flight path with separation reduced to a few hundred feet.

Today the FAA announced permanent restrictions on Route 4 helicopter operations, and made other changes that will prohibit most flights over the Potomac corridor except in emergency situations.

FAA 'permanently restricting' Washington helicopter traffic after fatal midair collision near DC airport

The Federal Aviation Administration announced a "series of steps" it will take to address safety concerns after a fatal midair crash near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport.

www.foxnews.com

 

[dtuuri]

Velocity 173 said: "...there’s no way in **** I’d run these routes without NVGs. Unaided at those altitudes would be suicide. High tension power lines, unlit towers..."


Please give the location of any power lines across the Potomac, between Dickerson MD, which is roughly east of Dulles, and just north of Quantico a mile. They are all under ground and water.
...
I have spent hundreds of hours on that stretch of the Potomac on sailboats, hundreds of helicopter flights have gone by at 50 feet+-.

Maybe Velocity 173 doesn't know what you know? As someone with a bunch of fixed-wing IFR approaches to 200 AGL before breaking out of the overcast, it seems incredible to me that helicopter pilots cruise around below that altitude. Even over a river. Here's yesterday's headline at home in Ohio: https://fox8.com/news/helicopter-crash-in-portage-county-oshp/
You can barely see the wires in the photos.

 

[ldhilljr13]

I think I disagree. I bet they would’ve had a few more seconds to acquire and identify the helicopter - perhaps in time for a faster climb as it appears they were doing in the last seconds.

I have mentioned this earlier in this thread, but I am still troubled that DCA tower never advised the CRJ of the helicopter traffic. From reading the preliminary report, the first time tower mentions the helicopter on the frequency the CRJ was monitoring was about 20 seconds before impact, when tower queried the PAT25 whether they had the CRJ in sight. Post-accident, I spent some time listening to DCA tower and at that point they were definitely pointing out to the jets of any helicopter traffic in the area -- that didn't happen on the night of the accident. I do wonder if tower had told the CRJ to be looking for the helicopter (while also telling the PAT25 to be looking for the jet) if that would have raised the situational awareness of the CRJ cockpit to obtain their own visual on the helicopter. (The preliminary report states that the captain was the pilot flying, so the FO would have had the opportunity to scan for traffic out the right side).

 

[FlightmechH3]

Nobody is catching a ride on COG training flights. VIP transport is a completely separate mission.

I have to laugh at this denial. PAT means Priority Air Transport. The designation is for VIP use.

USPAT has goldtops and the usual flat Army green color scheme. If they are just training and not carrying anyone, then why was the flight called PAT25? It appear that this Uber service flys around DC in a clockwise motion until a Senator/CIA/4 Star needs a ride.

Please, I have had WH and Administration officials on my helo before in the past for taxi services. The look on their faces (and crinkling noses) when they climb inside of the HH3F and see no insulation and dirty red troop seats. They didn't get any first-class treatment those days from me. Oh, the Marine "1" H60's might have a wet bar in them. Gotta keep the important elected officials drunk and happy.

 

[geezer]

DTOURI SAID:

Maybe Velocity 173 doesn't know what you know? As someone with a bunch of fixed-wing IFR approaches to 200 AGL before breaking out of the overcast, it seems incredible to me that helicopter pilots cruise around below that altitude. Even over a river. Here's yesterday's headline at home in Ohio: https://fox8.com/news/helicopter-crash-in-portage-county-oshp/
You can barely see the wires in the photos.

The Geezer is old, and out of date on the magenta line guidance. Does it depict power lines across rivers? Paper charts did, and I avoided lows flight when they were present.

The crash you presented as an example of a crash that NVG's could have prevented was a student pilot, daytime, solo.

That seems to me to be failure to brief his route before departure, and flying too low for the route.
Remind me also, what is the price of good NVG's that can be used in daylight?

Good pilot technique cannot be created with technology, it starts on the ground before each flight.

Date and names intentionally not included here, a morning traffic helicopter landed after his initial flying report at Kelley's Midget Kitchen, for breakfast, as he did every morning. Bacon, egg sandwich, with large coffee, all finished in 10 minutes, and back in the air. Tight landing spot behind the carryout, concrete parking for the food delivery trucks, and next to the ancient local electric substation, all feeder wires overhead.
Wind was a little puffy, and on liftoff, drifted back, and rotor contacted multiple wires. Wires came down with them, fuel tanks ruptured, nearly full, and two men died.

People keep making risky choices, and for months, Kelley's was the "right" choice.

The funders of traffic reports all changed to fixed wing to assure that all landings were made at airports in the Washington DC area.

The previous miss conception of safety from that the ability of helicopters to land anywhere ignored the ability of the crew to use poor judgement.