Crash at Reagan National Airport, DC. Helicopter crash into airliner.


A review of commercial operations at DCA (instrument flight rules departuresor arrivals) between October 2021 and December 2024 indicated a total of 944,179operations. During that time, there were 15,214 occurrences between commercial airplanes and helicopters in which there was a lateral separation distance of less than 1 nm and vertical separation of less than 400 ft. There were 85 recorded events that involved a lateral separation less than 1,500 ft and vertical separation less than 200 ft.

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Therefore, the NTSB recommends that the FAA prohibit operations on helicopter Route 4 between Hains Point and the Wilson Bridge when runways 15 and33 are being used for departures and arrivals, respectively, at DCA.
 
GilligansRodeo said:
Therefore, the NTSB recommends that the FAA prohibit operations on helicopter Route 4 between Hains Point and the Wilson Bridge when runways 15 and33 are being used for departures and arrivals, respectively, at DCA.
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In other news, grass is green...

Sad it took an accident of this magnitude to point out the obvious.
 
midwestpa24 said:
This is an interesting graphic from the NTSB, which answers what some of us were trying to calculate. At best there was 75 feet of separation from the Route 4 corridor and the glidepath to Runway 33.

View attachment 138951
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But that’s assuming the route is designed to go beneath 33 arrivals. They’re required 500 ft vert in this case so that wouldn’t make much sense.
 
Velocity173 said:
But that’s assuming the route is designed to go beneath 33 arrivals. They’re required 500 ft vert in this case so that wouldn’t make much sense.
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And yet both procedures were allowed to co-exist and be utilized simultaneously with minimal ATC intervention, as noted by numerous other close calls in the past. There is more control by the traffic signal at the highway intersection near my house.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And yet both procedures were allowed to co-exist and be utilized simultaneously with minimal ATC intervention, as noted by numerous other close calls in the past. There is more control by the traffic signal at the highway intersection near my house.
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Your traffic signal reference fits even better when you consider that most are put up after the death rate at the intersection gets too high. Seems the same weird logic is in play here ...
 
Daleandee said:
Your traffic signal reference fits even better when you consider that most are put up after the death rate at the intersection gets too high. Seems the same weird logic is in play here ...
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Hindsight is 20/20. The interesting part is it seems pilots that routinely flew into DCA knew of the risk, but it doesn't seem many outside of that did. The conclusion seems so obvious, but I would have never believed I was at risk of getting T-boned by a random helicopter on short final to a busy Class B airport in some of the most restricted airspace in the world. I know there are risks in aviation, but this one just blows my mind, and makes me wonder what other risks are just locally accepted at other airports that we haven't learned about yet. Maybe its like seeing the kitchen of your favorite restaurant, better if you just don't know.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I know there are risks in aviation, but this one just blows my mind, and makes me wonder what other risks are just locally accepted at other airports that we haven't learned about yet. Maybe its like seeing the kitchen of your favorite restaurant, better if you just don't know.
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Remember the smokestacks?
 
midwestpa24 said:
And yet both procedures were allowed to co-exist and be utilized simultaneously with minimal ATC intervention, as noted by numerous other close calls in the past. There is more control by the traffic signal at the highway intersection near my house.
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Were they allowed to be used simultaneously without the use of visual separation? If they did then each time would be an Operational Error on the part of the controller. All of these incidents of close calls don’t necessarily mean DCA is busting sep. Even the PAT11 vid, the controller had visual the whole time with the River Arrival but yet they were close enough to cause a RA.

Not saying these routes aren’t poorly designed. Just saying they may or may not be designed to have required separation in mind. From what I’ve seen, they have more to do with noise abatement than vertical deconfliction. Now, should they be allowed to use visual in such a cavalier manner? Probably not but that’s a whole other topic.
 
Oh look. Normalization of deviance again.

Bunch of dead people so Congress doesn't have to sit in traffic.
 
Most people are terrible at math, the statistics version anyway. Even a lot of engineers for some reason. I doubt if anything would have changed if someone ran the math before, without the accident. And I'm happy somebody ran the math now, looked at the stats, and came up with what sounds like a sensible plan. It was a horrible accident, but like a few others this will result in changes. I'd also bet that this event will be in the back of a lot of people's minds when doing other kind of intersecting route planning, if that occurs in other places with margins as low as this one.
 
Albany Tom said:
Most people are terrible at math, the statistics version anyway. Even a lot of engineers for some reason. I doubt if anything would have changed if someone ran the math before, without the accident. And I'm happy somebody ran the math now, looked at the stats, and came up with what sounds like a sensible plan. It was a horrible accident, but like a few others this will result in changes. I'd also bet that this event will be in the back of a lot of people's minds when doing other kind of intersecting route planning, if that occurs in other places with margins as low as this one.
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Why are we such slow learners that we have such obvious problems but everybody ignores them until we kill a bunch of people? :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Why are we such slow learners that we have such obvious problems but everybody ignores them until we kill a bunch of people? :dunno:
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Because there are a bunch of people that think every freakin thing out there will kill us and we must be protected from ourselves.

Because people don't understand that just because something was ok once or twice (or we survived it in our childhood) then must be ok forever.

Because people have different levels of risk acceptance.

Because oh so many people don't understand how to evaluate risk and establish an acceptable level of risk.
 
GilligansRodeo said:

A review of commercial operations at DCA (instrument flight rules departuresor arrivals) between October 2021 and December 2024 indicated a total of 944,179operations. During that time, there were 15,214 occurrences between commercial airplanes and helicopters in which there was a lateral separation distance of less than 1 nm and vertical separation of less than 400 ft. There were 85 recorded events that involved a lateral separation less than 1,500 ft and vertical separation less than 200 ft.

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Therefore, the NTSB recommends that the FAA prohibit operations on helicopter Route 4 between Hains Point and the Wilson Bridge when runways 15 and33 are being used for departures and arrivals, respectively, at DCA.
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Indeed

Seems they agreed with my initial thoughts in this thread

www.flyingmag.com

NTSB Urges ‘Immediate Action’ at D.C. Airport Following Fatal Midair

Preliminary report into the collision assesses that the airport’s approved traffic flow creates the potential for collisions.
www.flyingmag.com www.flyingmag.com

Based on the politicians reasons for the need of those helicopter shuttles, I think they all should be relocated to military bases in “fly over country”, with complementary on base housing of course.
For their safety and rapid deployment
 
Roller said:
Indeed

Seems they agreed with my initial thoughts in this thread

www.flyingmag.com

NTSB Urges ‘Immediate Action’ at D.C. Airport Following Fatal Midair

Preliminary report into the collision assesses that the airport’s approved traffic flow creates the potential for collisions.
www.flyingmag.com www.flyingmag.com

Based on the politicians reasons for the need of those helicopter shuttles, I think they all should be relocated to military bases in “fly over country”, with complementary on base housing of course.
For their safety and rapid deployment
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Just make DC “flyover country.”
 
Bob Noel said:
. . . . Because oh so many people don't understand how to evaluate risk and establish an acceptable level of risk.
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My parents are like that. They live in a small town, on a two-lane highway, and have flown in big commercial airplanes. So, by fiat, all of those things are perfectly safe. They have never flown in a small general aviation airplane, lived in a big city, or traveled regularly on an interstate highway. So, again by fiat, all of those things are insanely dangerous.
 
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I think the NTSB is painting an incorrect picture in that this route goes beneath arrivals to rwy 33. Yes, if a pilot flys along the route with a simultaneous arrival, it’ll be approximately 75 ft vert sep. But, pilots are allowed to deviate from these helo routes if given permission by ATC. That means visual separation. They deviate as necessary in order to maintain visual sep. Could be below but could be behind, in front, above, whatever is required in order to maintain visual. That’s the inherent problem with visual separation though. There isn’t any specified distance criteria and there’s no way of knowing if the pilots involved are looking at the correct aircraft. Same thing if they were sharing the pattern at DCA.

Yep having a route that’s in possible conflict with another one is bound to create issues. But, there are “hot spots” all over the country in which ATC relies upon pilots seeing the correct aircraft or correct runway for that matter. Centennial (Cirrus) and LAS Vegas (PA-46) midairs come to mind. It’s a flawed system in that everyone must be on their game for it to work.
 
Relying on strict adherence to a corridor that only had a 200 foot vertical window, which even when adhered to offered ~100ft of vertical separation as a single point of failure is purely and simply, not safe, given the context of airspace THIS busy surrounded by planes full of innocent people.

ATC: Hey, don't hit that plane.

Helo Crew: Okay

*Helo hits plane*
 
FlightmechH3 said:
ATC: Hey, don't hit that plane.

Helo Crew: Okay

*Helo hits plane*
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It’s even worse it’s basically

ATC: hey do you see that plane?

Helo: sure do! can we keep going if we promise not to hit it?

ATC: okay sounds good

ATC: wait you sure you see that plane?

Helo: yup we sure do! We promise not to hit it, can we keep going?

ATC: okay if you’re sure…

*helo hits plane*

PAT25 was the one requesting visual separation both times in response to the traffic callout (which ATC approved both times). Seemed like a very practiced thing for PAT to request visual separation
 
Evidently visual separation at DCA cannot be relied on by low flying helicopter pilots at night who happen to be using the new NVGs. LED landing lights are not seen as prominently as with the older generation goggles, and the visual background clutter had to be overwhelming in that particular incident. How the 12th Bn got away with it this long is surprising. Glad there’s a fix in place now.
 
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AKiss20 said:
It’s even worse it’s basically

ATC: hey do you see that plane?

Helo: sure do! can we keep going if we promise not to hit it?

ATC: okay sounds good

ATC: wait you sure you see that plane?

Helo: yup we sure do! We promise not to hit it, can we keep going?

ATC: okay if you’re sure…

*helo hits plane*

PAT25 was the one requesting visual separation both times in response to the traffic callout (which ATC approved both times). Seemed like a very practiced thing for PAT to request visual separation
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.gov will trip over itself to not blame fellow .gov
 
Piperonca said:
Evidently visual separation at DCA cannot be relied on by low flying helicopter pilots at night who happen to be using the new NVGs. LED landing lights are not seen as prominently as with the older generation goggles, and the visual background clutter had to be overwhelming in that particular incident. How the 12th Bn got away with it this long is surprising. Glad there’s a fix in place now.
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NTSB did note that "none of the airplane's lights used LED technology."
 
AquaLand said:
NTSB did note that "none of the airplane's lights used LED technology."
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And even if so, flying through an approach corridor they couldn’t flip up their NVGs and go straight visual?

Where they stuck?

Or were the US citizens lives flying in and out of a busy airport worth less then completing their politician chauffeur training?
 
Most folks know there were many young figure skaters onboard the doomed flight, along with their coaches and some parents I believe. There was a recent ice skating show that included a tribute to the husband and wife coaching team performed by their newly orphaned son. My wife watched it and was in tears afterward. The young man skated flawlessly, and when kneeling at the conclusion was overcome with emotion. He had great difficulty standing after that.
 
Piperonca said:
Most folks know there were many young figure skaters onboard the doomed flight, along with their coaches and some parents I believe. There was a recent ice skating show that included a tribute to the husband and wife coaching team performed by their newly orphaned son. My wife watched it and was in tears afterward. The young man skated flawlessly, and when kneeling at the conclusion was overcome with emotion. He had great difficulty standing after that.
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I know better camera work exists of this, but it seems to only show the last 30 seconds and be on crappy "news" shows that are exploiting it for clicks.

So here's the whole performance, even though it seems to have been taken on a cell phone it's worth a watch. Don't miss the second half when three additional skaters join him.


Oh, I should also mention that when I was looking for this I found a thread on Reddit that said it was his father's favorite song, and the lyrics are roughly translated as follows:

The night and the silence given forever
It's raining, or maybe snow is falling
Anyway, I'm endlessly warmed by hope.
I see a city in the distance that doesn't exist.

Where is it easy to find shelter for a traveler
Where they surely remember and wait
Day after day, now losing, now confusing the trail
I'm going to this city that doesn't exist.

There's a hearth burning for me.
As an eternal sign of forgotten truths
I'm one last step away from him.
And this step is longer than life.

Who will answer me what fate has given?
Don't let anyone know about it.
Maybe beyond the threshold of wasted years
I'll find this city that doesn't exist.

There's a hearth burning for me.
As an eternal sign of forgotten truths
I'm one last step away from him.
And this step is longer than life.

There's a hearth burning for me.
As an eternal sign of forgotten truths
I'm one last step away from him.
And this step is longer than life.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Relying on strict adherence to a corridor that only had a 200 foot vertical window, which even when adhered to offered ~100ft of vertical separation as a single point of failure is purely and simply, not safe
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There is no expectation that aircraft on Final to Rwy 33 and helicopters on Route 4 will be separated vertically. The crossing altitude might as well be identical. Altitude is never relied on to provide separation in this situation.

If the helicopter had not reported the CRJ in sight and agreed to provide visual separation then they would not have been allowed to continue southbound. The only form of separation being applied to those two aircraft was visual separation. The helicopter was expected to maintain safe separation from the CRJ by whatever means was necessary.
 
The obvious conclusion is that visual separation is not reliable in this environment at night, so procedural separation is required. Since vertical separation is impossible, some sort of lateral separation must be imposed to continue using the routes together.
 
Larry in TN said:
There is no expectation that aircraft on Final to Rwy 33 and helicopters on Route 4 will be separated vertically. The crossing altitude might as well be identical. Altitude is never relied on to provide separation in this situation.

If the helicopter had not reported the CRJ in sight and agreed to provide visual separation then they would not have been allowed to continue southbound. The only form of separation being applied to those two aircraft was visual separation. The helicopter was expected to maintain safe separation from the CRJ by whatever means was necessary.
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1000025111.jpg
The helicopter pilots failed and needlessly killed a bunch of innocent people. This boils down to who allowed this (Army brass, FAA, and politicians). Again, this is insanity and anyone who supports the CoG flights should be thinking long and hard about their priorities in life.
 
Ed Haywood said:
The obvious conclusion is that visual separation is not reliable in this environment at night, so procedural separation is required. Since vertical separation is impossible, some sort of lateral separation must be imposed to continue using the routes together.
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I think there's an important distinction between not reliable and not perfect. We have very few procedures which are perfect.

The NTSB's recommendation would seem to cover it. No helicopter traffic on Route 4 between Hains Point and Wilson Bridge while an airplane is operating from 15 or to 33.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
The helicopter pilots failed and needlessly killed a bunch of innocent people. This boils down to who allowed this (Army brass, FAA, and politicians). Again, this is insanity and anyone who supports the CoG flights should be thinking long and hard about their priorities in life.
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Almost every fatal accident involves someone making a mistake.

The answer is improving procedures to allow airplane and helicopter flights to operate more safely, not to prohibiting helicopter flights.
 
What am I not getting about this?

If the helo does not see the arrival, they are instructed to hold until the conflict is resolved. They are procedurally separated.

If the helo does see the arrival, they are instructed to maintain visual separation from the aircraft. The position of the CRJ was given, the type, and the intended route of flight.

Visual separation is used hundreds of times (or more) throughout the NAS daily. I read phrases like, "the normalization of deviance," and, "an accident waiting to happen." I've seen a cross-section map showing 75' of vertical separation, as if the procedure was being used to vertically separate the aircraft, but it was not, and cannot.

Our system constantly compresses a lot of airplanes into a small space when the demand exists. Large airports rely on visual separation (when conditions permit) to increase the arrival rate vs IFR procedures. Why are those not, "an accident waiting to happen," but this operation was?
 
PastZTL said:
What am I not getting about this?

If the helo does not see the arrival, they are instructed to hold until the conflict is resolved. They are procedurally separated.

If the helo does see the arrival, they are instructed to maintain visual separation from the aircraft. The position of the CRJ was given, the type, and the intended route of flight.

Visual separation is used hundreds of times (or more) throughout the NAS daily. I read phrases like, "the normalization of deviance," and, "an accident waiting to happen." I've seen a cross-section map showing 75' of vertical separation, as if the procedure was being used to vertically separate the aircraft, but it was not, and cannot.

Our system constantly compresses a lot of airplanes into a small space when the demand exists. Large airports rely on visual separation (when conditions permit) to increase the arrival rate vs IFR procedures. Why are those not, "an accident waiting to happen," but this operation was?
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The fact that this accident happened and 70 people are dead is kind of proof. Short final to a busy Class B airport is not the place for this kind of operation, and the concept that a controller can pass off control to "visual separation" and wash their hands of keeping the blips separated at 300 feet AGL within a mile of the airport is absolutely ludicrous, even if accepted.
 
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