cost of overhaul of the 0-300

[ja_user]

People act like the "zero time" aspect from the factory is something special. It is zero time because after they piece it together from various pieces and parts (some new), and the used ones from unknown origins, how else would they do it other than start a new logbook?

 

[Tom-D]

People act like the "zero time" aspect from the factory is something special. It is zero time because after they piece it together from various pieces and parts (some new), and the used ones from unknown origins, how else would they do it other than start a new logbook?

The frustration factor goes way up when the A&P can buy all new after market parts and build an engine from them, and not be able to call it new zero timed engine. yet the factory can build an engine from all used parts and call it new.

 

[Tom-D]

How many hours of your labor for teardown, assembly and shipping are part of that quote ?

none, this is my engine, like Ron says I work for free.

at least for me.

add $956.68 for the case machining.

 

[bnt83]

Parts and machining services

$9235.53

That's 6 new cylinders, crank regrind and plated, 11 lifters reworked, 1 new. 12 hydraulic units reworked, 6 rods reworked, cases reworked, cam reground, set of main bearings, new thrust bearings, set of rod bearings, magna flux services, over haul gasket kit, Cadplating services, cleaning chemicals, and shipping.

I know of nothing more needed to put it together.

So anything over about 10k +-, when you get a quote is the shops overhead and profit.

Charley once told me "you get what you pay for, and you pay for what you get."

So if you want new accessories, add them to your total costs.

And Yes this engine is for me, So yes I work for free. other wise I charge $2500.00 for my labor.

The numbers quoted above are for what it stated.

To my engine I will be adding 2 new TCM mags and harness, an alternator upgrade, new controls, plus a Prop overhaul, but those are options I leave to the owner's choice.

When you send me an engine with 2 new mags that have few hours would you like the option of keeping them?

Or would you like to pay a set price that averages all the bad cores on the line in a mass produced engine?

Would you like to know that you got your good low time parts back or ?

none, this is my engine, like Ron says I work for free.

at least for me.

add $956.68 for the case machining.

So up to $10,192.10 with no A&P labor or accessories and $12,692 with labor no accessories?

 

[weilke]

none, this is my engine, like Ron says I work for free.

at least for me.

That's the point. For someone with a 'P' rating, overhauling an O300 can be done for 11k, that doesn't mean that an overhaul shop will net a 'profit' of 8k if they charge someone 20k for it.

 

[Tom-D]

So up to $10,192.10 with no A&P labor or accessories?

I posted this thread to illustrate the real costs of the 0-300, every one will pay these prices simply because most use the same machine shops and buy the parts from the same places.

The variance will come in the difference between the shop's labor rate, and if you buy new accessories or overhaul what you have.

Some shops will not give you this choice and set a price that will average the engines overhaul costs.

 

[Tom-D]

That's the point. For someone with a 'P' rating, overhauling an O300 can be done for 11k, that doesn't mean that an overhaul shop will net a 'profit' of 8k if they charge someone 20k for it.

Yes it pretty much does. Any cost beyond what they pay for services and overhead is profit.

When you hire your A&P to do the job you will not pay the insurance costs of the big shops, plus you wont pay the set rate for labor charges

 

[bnt83]

I posted this thread to illustrate the real costs of the 0-300, every one will pay these prices simply because most use the same machine shops and buy the parts from the same places.

The variance will come in the difference between the shop's labor rate, and if you buy new accessories or overhaul what you have.

Some shops will not give you this choice and set a price that will average the engines overhaul costs.

I get that the field OH gives you more flexibility, but to build an engine to the same level as an overhauler who does the accessories and service bulletins, you won't save all the much if any.

 

[Tom-D]

I get that the field OH gives you more flexibility, but to build an engine to the same level as an overhauler who does the accessories and service bulletins, you won't save all the much if any.

That simply isn't true, we all work from the same manual. and sign it off under the same FAR.

do you really believe the major shops can overhaul a generator/alternator/ carb as cheaply as a A&P?

no, the big shops will simply replace the accessories and hit your pocket for it.

 

[wabower]

And when the engine loses a cylinder 500 miles from home on the second trip and must be returned to the shop for re-work?

QUOTE=Tom-D;1098445]That simply isn't true, we all work from the same manual. and sign it off under the same FAR.

do you really believe the major shops can overhaul a generator/alternator/ carb as cheaply as a A&P?

no, the big shops will simply replace the accessories and hit your pocket for it.[/QUOTE]

 

[bnt83]

That simply isn't true, we all work from the same manual. and sign it off under the same FAR.

do you really believe the major shops can overhaul a generator/alternator/ carb as cheaply as a A&P?

no, the big shops will simply replace the accessories and hit your pocket for it.

Let me rephrase, if the overhauler left out the same things you do, then they would still be within a few thousand of your AT COST OH + Labor fee.

 

[wabower]

And the independent may or may not have the same capabilities and equipment, may or may not turn out the same consistency of work, may or may not have the same level of inspections as well as many other may/may not issues.

And the "any costs beyond what they pay for services and overhead" doesn't mean the company will make a profit, it just means any job may or may not contribute to the hoped-for financial outcome. The ongoing failures of overhaul businesses demonstrates that big shops aren't always profitable.

Yes it pretty much does. Any cost beyond what they pay for services and overhead is profit.

When you hire your A&P to do the job you will not pay the insurance costs of the big shops, plus you wont pay the set rate for labor charges

 

[Tom-D]

Let me rephrase, if the overhauler left out the same things you do, then they would still be within a few thousand of your AT COST OH + Labor fee.

Understand I do not criticize the major overhaulers, they have overhead myself and other self employed A&Ps do not.

I overhaul the accessories that are required, the generator for example takes less then $20 to overhaul, yet many of the big shops will just replace them.

When you have the major shops do your overhaul, you can be assured you will pay for every thing you pay me, plus a lot more.
When I build any engine I use the same products and services that any other builder does.

If they do their own machining they might be cheaper than the machine shops that I use, but not many shops have their own crank grinder or plating vats. they farm them out in most cases.

 

[bnt83]

Understand I do not criticize the major overhaulers, they have overhead myself and other self employed A&Ps do not.

I overhaul the accessories that are required, the generator for example takes less then $20 to overhaul, yet many of the big shops will just replace them.

When you have the major shops do your overhaul, you can be assured you will pay for every thing you pay me, plus a lot more.
When I build any engine I use the same products and services that any other builder does.

If they do their own machining they might be cheaper than the machine shops that I use, but not many shops have their own crank grinder or plating vats. they farm them out in most cases.

True, but I imagine the larger overhaulers also negotiate with those shops that DO have the said equipment and vats, X number of cranks this year for $$$ kinda contracts, that put the cost per part they farm out under the retail price of the service you can buy.

 

[Tom-D]

The ongoing failures of overhaul businesses demonstrates that big shops aren't always profitable.

That goes for the little guy too.. that's why many A&Ps will only do the removal and installation.

 

[Tom-D]

True, but I imagine the larger overhaulers also negotiate with those shops that DO have the said equipment and vats, X number of cranks this year for $$$ kinda contracts, that put the cost per part they farm out under the retail price of the service you can buy.

Maybe.. I wouldn't know that for a fact.

 

[Luvrv8]

Tom, wondering if you plan on doing the push rod STC from real gaskets? If so we have done several and many leaked until we found out a certain seal needs doubled up as per real gaskets after we called about it.

 

[bnt83]

Tom, wondering if you plan on doing the push rod STC from real gaskets? If so we have done several and many leaked until we found out a certain seal needs doubled up as per real gaskets after we called about it.

Had them on my O-200 and thought they were a good product.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, wondering if you plan on doing the push rod STC from real gaskets? If so we have done several and many leaked until we found out a certain seal needs doubled up as per real gaskets after we called about it.

No. They have more possibilities to leak than the OEM.

 

[tmyers]

I understand that the big shops have reputations and insurance and maybe better warranties. I also realize we the consumer are paying for the extras in the cost of the rebuild. This makes a field OH or a small shop OH less costly and possibly more desirable.

Here is my question;

How much OH training does the average A&P get in the course of their studies? How many engines would the local guy or gal need under their belt before you would have confidence in the outcome of the OH?

When I was looking at purchasing the Arrow I looked into the R&R and rebuild with a local shop here in Cincinnati and the quote I received was in the $26K range. How much could I expect to save with a local shop?

IO-360-C1C6

 

[somorris]

My Dad told me a long time ago that a warranty is only as good as the person standing behind it. I have found that to be true. Doesn't matter if that person is in a big corporation or a sole proprietor.

Thanks, Tom for posting that information. It is informative, especially for someone with an engine pushing the TBO (I know, I know, the TBO doesn't mean I have to overhaul).

 

[Skylane81E]

How much OH training does the average A&P get in the course of their studies?

More than the repairmen you will find at many shops, less than some. If you can read directions and have a basic working knowledge of tools and engines you can overhaul the standard Lyc/TCM with great success.

 

[tmyers]

G&N has some information on their website about additional machining they do with the Lycoming's by cutting a groove a groove where the case through bolt passes through and installing an o-ring to act as a seal. This is supposedly a recommendation from the gray people to help with oil leakage at the through bolts. I didn't know there was a problem there.

Is this propaganda (BS) or reality?

 

[Skylane81E]

G&N has some information on their website about additional machining they do with the Lycoming's by cutting a groove a groove where the case through bolt passes through and installing an o-ring to act as a seal. This is supposedly a recommendation from the gray people to help with oil leakage at the through bolts. I didn't know there was a problem there.

Is this propaganda (BS) or reality?

Only two I ever split had orings at each through bolt. I'll buy that its a good idea if not already there.

Thing is I am going to have to farm out all my machine work on any OHs I do, I don't do enough to purchase the equipment.

 

[tmyers]

That is obviously one of the big shop advantages, but if you can find a good machine shop that you trust it just becomes a matter of logistics and time.

 

[Skylane81E]

Only so many places with approval, so odds are the machine work is being done by the guy

 

[Tom-D]

. How much could I expect to save with a local shop?

IO-360-C1C6

That's between you and your A&P.

We mostly are only doing the disassembly, inspection, and re-assembly, and the testing.

No matter what engine you are working with, the major costs are with the new parts, machining.

some engines will only need cylinders to be re-built, others will require new.

I have preached and preached that each engine is a study in its own right, you never know how it has been treated in the past, you never know what new parts you need until you get it open and inspected.

and finally you never know what the parts costs are until you get the bill.

 

[Tom-D]

Aircraft specialities did a nice job on the machine work for this engine, cleaned and inspected the crank, replaced the weight bushings, ground the seal area, renitrided the crank, and polished the journals. Plus they reground the lifters, and lapped the hydraulic units and push rod cups.

 

[Tom-D]

But, if I had a O-300 to over haul I would have Tom do it, that is a fair price for the work quoted.

charley has a very good point, you send me junk you get a big bill.

 

[Tom-D]

Only two I ever split had orings at each through bolt. I'll buy that its a good idea if not already there.

Thing is I am going to have to farm out all my machine work on any OHs I do, I don't do enough to purchase the equipment.

Advantage Continental, their thru bolts already have "O" rings installed on the thru bolts.

 

[Tom-D]

My Dad told me a long time ago that a warranty is only as good as the person standing behind it. I have found that to be true. Doesn't matter if that person is in a big corporation or a sole proprietor.

Thanks, Tom for posting that information. It is informative, especially for someone with an engine pushing the TBO (I know, I know, the TBO doesn't mean I have to overhaul).

which leads to the question, would you rather have the local A&P do your rebuild or the overhaul shop 3000 miles away.
Would you rather have the money controlled by you or the overhaul shop .

 

[wabower]

Well, it's not 3,000 miles, it's about 300. The rebuild shop has proven to be very reliable and flexible insofar as working with customer requirements and has met their time and cost estimates on each job. Their followup and warranty work has been good (although not much has been required) and they provide crating and other services to make it easy. Why would we go looking for some guy working out of his garage?

which leads to the question, would you rather have the local A&P do your rebuild or the overhaul shop 3000 miles away.
Would you rather have the money controlled by you or the overhaul shop .

 

[Tom-D]

Well, it's not 3,000 miles, it's about 300. The rebuild shop has proven to be very reliable and flexible insofar as working with customer requirements and has met their time and cost estimates on each job. Their followup and warranty work has been good (although not much has been required) and they provide crating and other services to make it easy. Why would we go looking for some guy working out of his garage?

He should be working out of your hangar.

 

[bluerooster]

Why izzit that some folks out there don't seem to understand that I can overhaul/rebuild my own engine for the cost of parts, and outsourced machine work, alone. Without having to pay for the labor cost, and overhead of a big name overhaul shop?
So, My guess is that Tom will end up with ~$13k in his overhauled O-300-D.
It would be close to $18k+ for a Carlus Gann, or $20k+ for a factory re-man.
And given the choice th' Factory re-man would be at the bottom of the list.
So He's saved $5k, (difference between himself, and Gann) which would be labor, and mabe a tad of markup.

 

[wabower]

Maybe because this ain't their first rodeo?

Why izzit that some folks out there don't seem to understand that I can overhaul/rebuild my own engine for the cost of parts, and outsourced machine work, alone. Without having to pay for the labor cost, and overhead of a big name overhaul shop?
So, My guess is that Tom will end up with ~$13k in his overhauled O-300-D.
It would be close to $18k+ for a Carlus Gann, or $20k+ for a factory re-man.
And given the choice th' Factory re-man would be at the bottom of the list.
So He's saved $5k, (difference between himself, and Gann) which would be labor, and mabe a tad of markup.

 

[Skylane81E]

Maybe because this ain't their first rodeo?

In fairness rodeo implies a level of difficulty I have not encountered when working on these rather simple engines. You need to know how to ride but it ain't a bronco either.

 

[Tom-D]

Some where along the thread some have shown they equate price with quality.

When this thread was about the cost of parts and machine work for the 0-300.

 

[wabower]

The phrase is generally used to indicate that the participant has previous experience in the field and understands some bullshlt may be scattered about here and there by those with a dog in the fight.

In fairness rodeo implies a level of difficulty I have not encountered when working on these rather simple engines. You need to know how to ride but it ain't a bronco either.

 

[Skylane81E]

The phrase is generally used to indicate that the participant has previous experience in the field and understands some bullshlt may be scattered about here and there by those with a dog in the fight.

I understand, I have no dog in, I have done a field overhaul, will do more but as I am not in the position to warranty work such as an overhaul it is not a service I offer to the public.

However I will tell you that it isn't hard to do, just requires attention to detail, lots of it.

 

[Tom-D]

IHowever I will tell you that it isn't hard to do, just requires attention to detail, lots of it.

Specially now that we are not doing any cylinder work, replacing valve seats, guides, or reworking rockers haft bushings. we simply replace the cylinder for less than we can overhaul them.