Cost of Annual: Total for both Inspection and Repairs

[GoFly]

My A&P says there is a loose nut holding the yoke

 

[Rene]

Not to come across as a know-it-all (which I certainly am not) or mean-spirited, but this question is illogical.

There is the cost (the A&P's time) to do the inspection. That should fall within a general perameter for a zip code and aircraft type.
THIS IS THE COST OF AN ANNUAL.

Then there is the cost to get the aircraft returned to service (or possibly upgraded).

I bought part of a Vagabond in 2024. When I was looking at potential airplanes there were $75,000 Cubs with logs back to the birth of C.G. Taylor's great grandfather, spares for consumables, and a pickled Franklin engine in a crate. It may have cost an extra $50.00 to get that airplane signed off as airworthy. And there was a $12,000 Ercoupe that, while less than 12-months from it's last annual, needed a prop, a nose wheel, and an engine teardown after a prop-strike. What do A-75s go for now-a-days?

 

[1SGBrokePilot]

I have been lucky and not had any annuals that were ultra shocking to my bank account. When I get numbers back from annual and the mechanic strongly recommends that I don't defer certain things, I take that recommendation seriously. He doesn't say it out loud, but its almost like he is saying "this isn't and airworthiness issue now, but could quickly become one" I like my guy, he is starting to get older and I really don't want to find a new one.. so if he is recommending maintenance, I go with it. Finding a good A&P/IA that only focuses on piston is getting more and more difficult. I look at the extra $ as an investment into keeping my plane safe, AND helping keep my maintenance guy in business. When I really need him, I want him to still be there to turn wrenches. I say all of that probably not having an annual ever cost me over 6K, and that is very rare. Most have been in the $2500 range which included some maint items. When the day comes that I have to overhaul my engine... I may change my tune.. but probably not.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Owner-assisted (impaired?) annual: $1500 flat rate

 

[Pinecone]

You know the answer to that all too well

Yeah, well.

 

[Pinecone]

Its all relative. I've found your average owner only wants the minimum used: 43 Appx D and 43.15. When you bring up the OEM checklist or review of pertinent bulletins its followed by how much more and no thanks. Then you have other owners who expect no less than using the OEM checklist and SIDs where applicable. So it really depends on what the owner wants whether its "cheap" or not.

Which is why first annuals for a new owner with a new IA can be eye opening.

 

[bkspero]

That sounds like maintenance beyond the inspection. The inspection is the inspection. Everything beyond that is maintenance items. What was the basic inspection. My Tiger runs $1100 from the P/Ia who has maintained me for 20 years now. To fix anything found start the meter running, to include any service items including oil/ filters/ brake pads, etc. it is important to understand what you are paying for under the “annual inspection” banner. Some AnPs include servicing, others don’t. One needs to ask.

Richard, that's what the OP was asking for in the thread's title: "Cost of Annual: Total for both Inspection and Repairs".

I'm familiar with the recommendation to separate the inspection from the repairs. Just wasn't relevant to this thread.

 

[Gary Ward]

Pinecone said:
How many of you have looked up the 100 hour/Annual inspection checklist from the manufacturer and seen how much there is to do?

I hear about these cheap annuals, then wonder whether things are actually being done.

You know the answer to that all too well

This is what I use, from the service manual. It takes me about 20-25 hours during the course of about 5 days after work. 4-5 hours a night. 4 pages long. Only inspecting, no repairs.

I make copy's that I put notes on that get's filed with my logs. Newer revised service manual.

Old original...

 

[Bell206]

Which is why first annuals for a new owner with a new IA can be eye opening.

Not necessarily. I’ve found the cause of that issue had more to do with a new owner not selecting their mechanic first and not using that specific mechanic during the pre-buy/purchase phase. Same with maintenance in general. The owner sets the tone how their aircraft is maintained, which in some cases those results are also not dependent on which inspection checklist is used.

 

[Gary Ward]

My first annual was paid for by the previous owner who was a friend of mine. I knew the AP/IA who had been doing the previous annuals with mainly a pen since my friend didn't fly it much. My friend and I had a agreement that I provide the labor and he would provide the parts needed excluding oil, filters, and fuel while he owned it and I flew it.
I remember the look on the IA face when he walked into my hangar for the first time. I had it all tore apart including the interior. He has never seen the interior before, or not for 30 years. He now knows I want a detailed inspection each year and it is mainly up to me how detailed we get.
Last year after flying it for about 1500 hours I found a crack in a bulkhead.

 

[Dan Thomas]

That's a common spot for cracking in the 172 and 182. When Cessna added that rear window, the fuselage was more free to flex through that area with yawing loads from the tail. If you see that crack, get someone to push sideways on the aft fuselage and watch that bulkhead flex right at that spot. The opposite side, next to the baggage door, also cracks.

Another bad spot is the forward spar in the horizontal stab, around the lightening hole in the spar. People push down on the tail to turn the airplane and that spar flexes there and cracks. The loads when doing that are far beyond the design flight loads. Just look at the difference in spar construction between the forward and aft spars, and also how far forward the CG is ahead of the mains compared to the CL in flight.



You can see stopdrillings by previous mechanics. Cessna says you can do that until the crack reaches the bend in the flange, then the stab must be removed and repaired with a doubler kit and other parts. I just took them off and sent them to a structures shop and had them rebuilt and reinforced properly. And prohibited anyone from pushing that stab down. Towbars are the safe thing to use.

 

[Daleandee]

Some of you are making me feel better ... not only that my experimental costs much less for me as the inspector, but even more so the time involved. It takes me a few days to do my inspection/repairs and my little plane is not that complicated. Of course if a part fails (or is about to) during the year it gets immediately replaced.

I wonder at how some can get an annual done in a few hours. I guess those that do them all the time on various planes will know all the tricks to getting it done faster. A major time saver would be the owner that has all the panels off, the cowling removed, tires off, and the interior removed as that would save a lot of time ...

 

[Magman]

The Owner can do just about everything an Annual consists of;

except signing as such. This does not relieve the IA of the responsibility

to actually perform the inspection though.

A bud has what I consider to be one of the best 172’s in existence.

The challenge is for me to find something he missed.

 

[Pinecone]

This is what I use, from the service manual. It takes me about 20-25 hours during the course of about 5 days after work. 4-5 hours a night. 4 pages long. Only inspecting, no repairs.

I make copy's that I put notes on that get's filed with my logs. Newer revised service manual.

Old original...

So, at a shop rate of $100 per hour, that is $2000 - $2500. For a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop, simple airplane.

The 34 hours is for my Mooney, with retractable (must put plane on jacks and swing gear) and constant speed prop, and in my case a turbo system.

So what is being skipped for a $1500 annual on a C-172?????

 

[Gary Ward]

So, at a shop rate of $100 per hour, that is $2000 - $2500. For a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop, simple airplane.

The 34 hours is for my Mooney, with retractable (must put plane on jacks and swing gear) and constant speed prop, and in my case a turbo system.

So what is being skipped for a $1500 annual on a C-172?????

Pulling the interior out is one I would guess?

 

[Dan Thomas]

So what is being skipped for a $1500 annual on a C-172?????

They aren't pulling the interior out to get a look at the structure, the wires, cables and fluid lines in the wing roots and under the floor and in the tailcone, and so on. They're not pulling the seats out and getting under the instrument panel to check stuff under there. All of that takes time, especially the interior stuff. I have found plenty of evidence that these things are not being done.

 

[Bell206]

So what is being skipped for a $1500 annual on a C-172?????

Nothing. But you cant compare the inspections using different checklists. The same areas are inspected but the difference is in number of line items and specifics that adds to the time involved.

For example, for a basic single, fixed gear, high wing I would flat rate an annual/100hr using 43.15/ 43 Appdx D checklist at 15 hours which included disassembly, clean, inspection, reassembly. If the owner agreed to my recommended add-ons it would usually add another 2 hours.

Bring the same plane but the owner wanted to use all OEM checklists my flat rate went up to 20-25 hours depending on model. The added time was in the increased detail of the checklists.

But what really affects the inspection times is the basic condition of the aircraft. Well maintained aircraft are simply "easier" to inspect than aircraft which is only maintained once a year at annual time.

 

[Gary Ward]

The picture I posted above was not the finished product. I hemmed and hawed if I should put more rivets in especially on the flange. My IA came by and took a close look and agreed I should add 2 more on the flange and one on the patch. He originally made me pattern out of thin cardboard and showed me where to put the rivets. This is what finished with. Dan you helped me know where to look at all the front and aft bulkheads for cracks. Then I found 2 more allerion pulleys that were dry down in the floor right behind the door openings that only can be seen with all the plastic out.

 

[robin ardoin]

One more data point.. 1981 T210N Inspection flat rate $2,200

 

[Rcmutz]

Nothing. But you cant compare the inspections using different checklists. The same areas are inspected but the difference is in number of line items and specifics that adds to the time involved.

For example, for a basic single, fixed gear, high wing I would flat rate an annual/100hr using 43.15/ 43 Appdx D checklist at 15 hours which included disassembly, clean, inspection, reassembly. If the owner agreed to my recommended add-ons it would usually add another 2 hours.

Bring the same plane but the owner wanted to use all OEM checklists my flat rate went up to 20-25 hours depending on model. The added time was in the increased detail of the checklists.

But what really affects the inspection times is the basic condition of the aircraft. Well maintained aircraft are simply "easier" to inspect than aircraft which is only maintained once a year at annual time.

I would agree. The OEM inspection checklist is much more detailed than what the FAA requires of an annual inspection. Also, some annual flat rates include servicing per the OEM service manual which may or may not be required by the FAA. In the end it is up to the relationship one develops with their AnP/IA. For example, no annual checklist requires a boroscope inspection of the cylinders, but I have my AnP do one at each annual, and I gladly pay the additional hours worth of labor for my 4 cylinder Lycoming. YMMV.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Then I found 2 more allerion pulleys that were dry down in the floor right behind the door openings that only can be seen with all the plastic out.

Next time you have those doorpost covers off, look for cracking at the bottom of those aft doorposts. Hard to see. Seems to be a result of taxiing over rough ground, or landing in a crab.


https://www.cessnaflyer.org/media/kunena/attachments/53/Cessna97-1.pdf

No fun fixing it, either.

 

[Magman]

Note that Part 147 Aircraft Maintenance Technician Schools do not go deep

into the peculiarities of varying aircraft types. Hence the A&P Cert is often

described as a “ License to Learn”. Since there are so many paths a

career may take it is impossible for one person to have insight into the

difficulties with Airbus, WACO, Navions and Schweizer’s . So there are folks

that are knowledgeable than others with detecting the issues. Traditional

Service info from the mfg is helpful with gaining experience but Type Clubs

and YouTube can play a role also.

It should be noted that a Cessna fuselage hangs by the Doorposts. Obviously

this means the repairs are critical in that area. As Dan pointed out; the

repair is not easy. Note that Structural Adhesive is also used in the process.

On 172’s with no external Door Stops I’ve found cracks near the lower

hinge. Another time consuming joy to repair!

 

[JackL-3J]

My A&P says there is a loose nut holding the yoke

I don't even have a yoke.

But my main nut has been loose for quite some time.

 

[Pinecone]

They aren't pulling the interior out to get a look at the structure, the wires, cables and fluid lines in the wing roots and under the floor and in the tailcone, and so on. They're not pulling the seats out and getting under the instrument panel to check stuff under there. All of that takes time, especially the interior stuff. I have found plenty of evidence that these things are not being done.

I even know of a shop that did the second annual on a brand new 172, and most of the inspection plates had not ever been removed.

Hmmmm

 

[Pinecone]

Nothing. But you cant compare the inspections using different checklists. The same areas are inspected but the difference is in number of line items and specifics that adds to the time involved.

For example, for a basic single, fixed gear, high wing I would flat rate an annual/100hr using 43.15/ 43 Appdx D checklist at 15 hours which included disassembly, clean, inspection, reassembly. If the owner agreed to my recommended add-ons it would usually add another 2 hours.

Bring the same plane but the owner wanted to use all OEM checklists my flat rate went up to 20-25 hours depending on model. The added time was in the increased detail of the checklists.

But what really affects the inspection times is the basic condition of the aircraft. Well maintained aircraft are simply "easier" to inspect than aircraft which is only maintained once a year at annual time.

But that means for your "standard" annual, things that the manufacturer felt needed to be inspected every year is not being inspected.

To the tune of 5 - 10 hours of inspecting additional things.

 

[Bell206]

But that means for your "standard" annual, things that the manufacturer felt needed to be inspected every year is not being inspected.

But thats not my decision to make. Strictly the owner's. Now where I did have some "pull" with my owner-assist clients I required them to review all OEM inspection programs, bulletins, etc. and to come up with their own inspection program. I think a good program is a mix of Appdx D and the OEM program. Do I think all OEM recommendations should be followed? No. Some are over reaching like Cessna's SIDs. And some I do not believe give the best bang for buck like engine OH recommendations.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I even know of a shop that did the second annual on a brand new 172, and most of the inspection plates had not ever been removed.

Hmmmm

I get the sarcasm. But I did an inspection on a Cessna 170 in which the screws in almost every inspection cover were solidly rusted into the anchor nuts. That didn't take a year; it took many years, probably 20 or 30. After having to drill out a lot of those screws, I found things like seized control cable pulleys, chafed cables, corroded hardware and fittings. Even easy-to-get-at stuff like the fuel strainer had not been inspected and cleaned in a very long time. It was a pitiful mess.

 

[Randomskylane]

If you can add another poll to the op…probably better to have hours for the inspection (182 range of 18-22 hours over last 20 years) and then a value for typical extras. I have no idea where people are getting sub $100 hour rates, which seem likely between comments and current poll results

 

[luvflyin]

How much do you usually pay for an Annual (Fixed gear 4 seater - Skylane, Skyhawk, Archer, Tiger, etc.) for inspection and repairs? How big of a check do you usually write once a year?

I never got a chance to write a second one. The first one fell into the PTSD category. The plane was turned into parts after that one.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My A&P says there is a loose nut holding the yoke

That's OK. The nut that attaches the yoke to the left seat is the cheapest part in the entire airplane.

 

[JackL-3J]

I even know of a shop that did the second annual on a brand new 172, and most of the inspection plates had not ever been removed.

Hmmmm

Probably A&Ps from Krypton. Hard to compete with them. They save so many hours with thier x-ray vision.

 

[WDD]

I never got a chance to write a second one. The first one fell into the PTSD category. The plane was turned into parts after that one.

Was that the Cherokee with the internal corrosion? Yikes - you win the prize (not something you wanted to win).

 

[luvflyin]

Was that the Cherokee with the internal corrosion? Yikes - you win the prize (not something you wanted to win).

No. A Cardinal with cracks in door posts.

 

[Pinecone]

But thats not my decision to make. Strictly the owner's. Now where I did have some "pull" with my owner-assist clients I required them to review all OEM inspection programs, bulletins, etc. and to come up with their own inspection program. I think a good program is a mix of Appdx D and the OEM program. Do I think all OEM recommendations should be followed? No. Some are over reaching like Cessna's SIDs. And some I do not believe give the best bang for buck like engine OH recommendations.

But also part of that is educating the owner as to the difference.

Where in the flight training syllabus covers ANYTHING about aircraft ownership? Owners just don't know.

 

[Bell206]

But also part of that is educating the owner as to the difference. Where in the flight training syllabus covers ANYTHING about aircraft ownership? Owners just don't know.

Last I checked, the PPC certification standards required knowledge and understanding of the airworthiness requirements for aircraft to include inspection requirements. And since the FAA puts an aircraft owner on top of the food chain, its their regulatory responsibility to educate themselves on aircraft ownership which as a matter of fact the FAA does provide a number of guidance documents about.

So its not really a mechanic requirement to teach them those differences. Now for me personally, I’m always paying forward knowledge to any person who asks or wants to listen just as I do here on PoA. Unfortunately, I find more than less of owner/pilots tend not to be “receptive” to such education for whatever reason which is supported by the repetitive ownership posts here as well. As the saying goes, when you point a finger at something, there’s always 3 fingers pointing back at you.

 

[Magman]

Some of the worst words a Tech hears are “ Do whatever you think is best”.

Often that is not what they really mean though.

 

[Rene]

But also part of that is educating the owner as to the difference.

Where in the flight training syllabus covers ANYTHING about aircraft ownership? Owners just don't know.

Growing up lots of folks told me "that it wasn't what you know, it's who you know". That never sat well because I wanted to know. Then I discovered to a great extent what you know is because of who you know (or read).

Flight training isn't ownership training. You can rent airplanes and leave all of the maintenance and (hopefully few) repairs up to the owner.

One of the best things that I have experienced in my aviation journey was finding someone who had the same aviation goals that I do, but who has been around a whole lot longer and knows his way around. Owning an airplane is a whole separate 40-hour course. We've discussed his vision of where the airplane and our partnership is going. What we will and won't do in the future, and how to make sure that all of the pieces are in place so that that vision becomes a reality.


Why aren't there "flying cars"? Well . . . just look at the way the average person takes care of a non-flying car.

 

[schmookeeg]

They aren't pulling the interior out to get a look at the structure, the wires, cables and fluid lines in the wing roots and under the floor and in the tailcone, and so on. They're not pulling the seats out and getting under the instrument panel to check stuff under there. All of that takes time, especially the interior stuff. I have found plenty of evidence that these things are not being done.

I always wonder if GA, particularly the old fleet, would benefit from some sort of ABCD check system. Do the basic 43/D annual, but every 5 years, it's a longform inspection and a deep dive is taken to effect a minor restoration of structures, controls, and critical parts where necessary.

Then I remember those will just get pencil-whipped as well. :/

 

[Magman]

The Tech must perform the inspections to determine if the aircraft meets

at least the MINIMUM standards for Airworthiness.

The Owner can insist on more in- depth checks at any time and schedule.

There is plenty of guidance available to do this if desired.

Some do and some don’t.

 

[MIFlyer]

I always wonder if GA, particularly the old fleet, would benefit from some sort of ABCD check system. Do the basic 43/D annual, but every 5 years, it's a longform inspection and a deep dive is taken to effect a minor restoration of structures, controls, and critical parts where necessary.

Then I remember those will just get pencil-whipped as well. :/

Or do we give people a break and it's 2 and 4. do an "annual" every 2 years, and do a deeper look every 4. For hangared planes flying 40 hours a year...