Cool Video!

That is unreal.
Quick thinking by the PIC
 
Wow. That's bad luck. Nice job by the guy flying, though.

Question: He obviously has to go missed there, but if he's beyond the MAP does he need to do some maneuvering to be sure he's clear of obstacles? I'd be hesitant to use my lift for anything but altitude in that situation, but seems like he's not guaranteed obstacle clearance if he starts the climb after the MAP (or possibly below DA/MDA since he had the runway in sight).
 
I could be wrong but I believe he was able to land. He reached minimums and had the lighting in sight so he could have dropped to 100ft above touchdown zone elevation which looked like it would have been clear. (91.175)
 
Interesting video.

I'm not really sure why you guys give such high credit to the pilot. He didn't do anything wrong but there wasn't anything special in what he did either. He flew an approach, something went wrong, so we went missed.
What did you expect him to do? Panic and do a barrel roll?
 
MachFly said:
Interesting video.

I'm not really sure why you guys give such high credit to the pilot. He didn't do anything wrong but there wasn't anything special in what he did either. He flew an approach, something went wrong, so we went missed.
What did you expect him to do? Panic and do a barrel roll?
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Well, not being instrument rated myself, I have never encountered this situation. No hesitation on his part, no moment of pause or anything.
I did that once because the runway was filled with geese and afterwards I remember thinking "Cool, I handled that well"

I tip well when the service is good. I don't expect someone to see me tipping and say "Well what did you expect, her to throw a tray of food at you?"

This pilot did a good job.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Well, not being instrument rated myself, I have never encountered this situation. No hesitation on his part, no moment of pause or anything.
I did that once because the runway was filled with geese and afterwards I remember thinking "Cool, I handled that well"

I tip well when the service is good. I don't expect someone to see me tipping and say "Well what did you expect, her to throw a tray of food at you?"

This pilot did a good job.
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Okay gotcha, I certainly don't disagree that he did a good job.

The reason I'm giving this guy so little credit is because he's flying a 737 that has been outfitted to carry millionaires, to get that job he had to have a $h!t load of experience.
 
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What is special about that plane versus other 737s?
I know nothing about commercial jets by the way. To me those things still use magic to get around.
 
Thanks for the video.

I think it's a good example of the "siren song" a runway can exude in an instrument approach.

We all KNOW never to go below minimums without set criteria met, but, darn, the runway was JUST there and if I press on regardless it will probably work out. And pulling back up into those clouds will just lead to more work and aggravation.

I think most instrument pilots know that feeling, and how hard it is to break off when you're so close. It takes both training and discipline to do the right thing. Too many pilots lack in one of those two areas, often with tragic results.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
What is special about that plane versus other 737s?
I know nothing about commercial jets by the way. To me those things still use magic to get around.
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He was flying a Boeing Business Jet. It's basically a private 737 and I believe it has a longer range than a normal commercial airline 737
 
So, could anyone identify the type of ALS? Apparently the captain watched my tutorial all the way through slide #31 and knew just what to do. Good work! :D

dtuuri
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What is special about that plane versus other 737s?
I know nothing about commercial jets by the way. To me those things still use magic to get around.
Click to expand...

The BBJ is 737 which had a cargo section replaced with an extra fuel tank and a private jet interior installed. The reason why it's "special" is because that whole airplane is just for one guy to be transported in luxury, for that it's Captain is probably getting around $250-300K per year. To get that job the guy had to know what he was doing.

Large corporations don't even operate those things, they are probably carrying the prince of UAE or something.
 
I do not know the approach he was flying but when you go Missed at that elevation I would think your first move would be to pull back on the yoke instead of turning left. As I said, I do not know the approach. Just my 2 cents.
 
Catalo said:
I could be wrong but I believe he was able to land. He reached minimums and had the lighting in sight so he could have dropped to 100ft above touchdown zone elevation which looked like it would have been clear. (91.175)
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Why risk it? Either go in a holding and wait or go to another airport. I will never get 100 ft above a runway on a guess that I'll be able to see it then.
 
I have no idea what y'all are talking about.
Here is the interior of our new plane.

Pretty standard I think on the Gen2 models :)

boeing-interior.jpg
 
I parked next to two BBJ's out in Vegas. I sure didn't feel cool being in a PC-12 anymore.

I'd give my third nut to get a BBJ gig.
 
Catalo said:
I could be wrong but I believe he was able to land. He reached minimums and had the lighting in sight so he could have dropped to 100ft above touchdown zone elevation which looked like it would have been clear. (91.175)
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That's what he did. They continued the approach below DA (you hear "minimums") and then he called a missed when viz went to shyte.
 
MachFly said:
Interesting video.

I'm not really sure why you guys give such high credit to the pilot. He didn't do anything wrong but there wasn't anything special in what he did either. He flew an approach, something went wrong, so we went missed.
What did you expect him to do? Panic and do a barrel roll?
Click to expand...

I don't read it as them giving him high credit, but he did make the right decision. That's a good job in my book.
 
mjburian said:
Question: He obviously has to go missed there, but if he's beyond the MAP does he need to do some maneuvering to be sure he's clear of obstacles? I'd be hesitant to use my lift for anything but altitude in that situation, but seems like he's not guaranteed obstacle clearance if he starts the climb after the MAP (or possibly below DA/MDA since he had the runway in sight).
Click to expand...

No! He does have obstacle clearance - he's over a runway on a precision (or LPV which is technically non-precision) approach with pretty low minima. He just needs to fly the published missed procedure. Not a big deal unless you go off script. :)
 
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petrolero said:
No! He does have obstacle clearance - he's over a runway on a precision (or LPV which is technically non-precision) approach with pretty low minima. He just needs to fly the published missed procedure. Not a big deal unless you go off script. :)
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Let's take this to the extreme and say that he's just a foot or so off the deck when he loses visibility. Is he STILL covered then? I understand you're clear of obstacles if you start the missed procedure at the missed approach point and can maintain the necessary climb gradient. But if you're beyond the MAP and/or below the DA/MDA when you start the missed procedures how can you be certain of obstacle clearance?
 
mjburian said:
Wow. That's bad luck. Nice job by the guy flying, though.

Question: He obviously has to go missed there, but if he's beyond the MAP does he need to do some maneuvering to be sure he's clear of obstacles? I'd be hesitant to use my lift for anything but altitude in that situation, but seems like he's not guaranteed obstacle clearance if he starts the climb after the MAP (or possibly below DA/MDA since he had the runway in sight).
Click to expand...

I know he probably has +7,000 ft. of obstacle free space directly in front of him. The missed approach should be initiated at the DA for an ILS(which is what he was flying). But you have to remember, on an ILS you are in a descent, you aren't straight and level like you are if you are flying a non-precision approach. It is expected that you will dip below the DA altitude a tad when transitioning from landing to the go-around(yeah, obviously not as much as he did, I know). The standard climb gradient for the missed approach is 200 ft/nm(unless it is stated otherwise). And reasonable buffers are provided for normal maneuvers.

mjburian said:
Let's take this to the extreme and say that he's just a foot or so off the deck when he loses visibility. Is he STILL covered then? I understand you're clear of obstacles if you start the missed procedure at the missed approach point and can maintain the necessary climb gradient. But if you're beyond the MAP and/or below the DA/MDA when you start the missed procedures how can you be certain of obstacle clearance?
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No he isn't. He should have planned for this before executing the approach. Stuff happens and missed approaches like this do happen a lot. Would you rather continue moving towards solid earth and not see it or try to get away from it? Given the visibility he had, I'll take my chances climbing away from it.

dtuuri said:
So, could anyone identify the type of ALS?
Click to expand...

ALSF-1

Catalo said:
I could be wrong but I believe he was able to land. He reached minimums and had the lighting in sight so he could have dropped to 100ft above touchdown zone elevation which looked like it would have been clear. (91.175)
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He did drop 100 below DH. You think what you want, but when he said Go-Around, all I saw was a white windshield. Therefore, I lost visual reference with runway. I'm looking at 91.175 and I see:

(d) Landing. No pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, may land that aircraft when—

(1) For operations conducted under paragraph (l) of this section, the requirements of (l)(4) of this section are not met; or

(2) For all other part 91 operations and parts 121, 125, 129, and 135 operations, the flight visibility is less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used.
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Paragraph(l) refers to Enhanced Flight Vision Systems which the standard HUD on the BBJ doesn't count.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have no idea what y'all are talking about.
Here is the interior of our new plane.

Pretty standard I think on the Gen2 models :)

boeing-interior.jpg
Click to expand...


Which goes against the old saying that the captains (pilot) seat is the best seat in the plane
 
mjburian said:
Let's take this to the extreme and say that he's just a foot or so off the deck when he loses visibility. Is he STILL covered then? I understand you're clear of obstacles if you start the missed procedure at the missed approach point and can maintain the necessary climb gradient. But if you're beyond the MAP and/or below the DA/MDA when you start the missed procedures how can you be certain of obstacle clearance?
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Because runways are flat.

I can see a theoretical question of whether, at minimum performance, an airplane beginning a missed procedure from so low and, if one foot off the runway, so far down the runway would have obstacle protection all the way through the missed procedure. I don't know without consulting the Instrument Procedures Handbook and knowing the airplane's performance. Now you're in more of a zero zero takeoff situation than a missed approach.

All I am saying is that he certainly shouldn't be maneuvering off script in the clouds. There are no obstacles over the runway so hold the centerline and climb. If he has normal takeoff climb capability he'll be just fine - other than maybe having to explain to the FAA why he went missed so late.
 
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petrolero said:
Because runways are flat.

I can see a theoretical question of whether, at minimum performance, an airplane beginning a missed procedure from so low and, if one foot off the runway, so far down the runway would have obstacle protection all the way through the missed procedure. I don't know without consulting the Instrument Procedures Handbook and knowing the airplane's performance. Now you're in more of a zero zero takeoff situation than a missed approach.

All I am saying is that he certainly shouldn't be maneuvering off script in the clouds. There are no obstacles over the runway so hold the centerline and climb. If he has normal takeoff climb capability he'll be just fine - other than maybe having to explain to the FAA why he went missed so late.
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The zero zero takeoff analogy is a good one. And, for the record, I completely agree that I'd climb the centerline over any other options. I was just wondering how assured obstacle clearance was in that scenario. Sounds like, as is guessed, it could be iffy. But climbing centerline is still the best bet.
 
mjburian said:
The zero zero takeoff analogy is a good one. And, for the record, I completely agree that I'd climb the centerline over any other options. I was just wondering how assured obstacle clearance was in that scenario. Sounds like, as is guessed, it could be iffy. But climbing centerline is still the best bet.
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If you're really concerned about it you can theoretically fly the ODP instead of the missed.
 
MachFly said:
If you're really concerned about it you can theoretically fly the ODP instead of the missed.
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Probably too much going on at that point to look up the ODP, but it makes me wonder if that should be part of the approach briefing.
 
This video is a few years old and was posted before on POA. Its funny you posted it though. I was thinking about this video yesterday. It really is a great video and good lesson.
 
mjburian said:
Probably too much going on at that point to look up the ODP, but it makes me wonder if that should be part of the approach briefing.
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At that point yeah.
But say you're flying an aircraft that climbs like crap as it is, it's a very hot day, and you're in the mountains. In that scenario I'd want to overlay the whole missed approach on a terrain chart and see what it looks like, and perhaps prepare the ODP.
I've never had to do it, but that's just because such scenario is very rare.
 
MachFly said:
At that point yeah.
But say you're flying an aircraft that climbs like crap as it is, it's a very hot day, and you're in the mountains. In that scenario I'd want to overlay the whole missed approach on a terrain chart and see what it looks like, and perhaps prepare the ODP.
I've never had to do it, but that's just because such scenario is very rare.
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That scenario sounds pretty rare, but I may include at least a glance at the ODP any time I think I might be flying an approach down to mins. If nothing else, it'll be in the back of my head and help me to understand where the pointy things are should I need to go missed late in the approach (ie, after the MAP and below DA). Something I hadn't considered before this thread, so thanks!
 
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