Controllers...what are your pet peeves?

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by Chrisj13, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    7,294
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Oh yeah, if you're VFR, looking to pick up an IFR clearance for approaches, let the controller know.

    Had a guy one time call up and ask for a LOC into the local uncontrolled airport. He simply requested a "practice approach." After getting radar ID, I gave him the usual "maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided." Which he came back with an attitude "well...doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose?" After a couple more exchanges, I finally got it out of him that he wanted an IFR clearance. He could have eliminated all confusion to begin with by just saying "N12345, requesting local IFR to XYZ for a practice localizer approach."
     
    AKBill likes this.
  2. mulligan

    mulligan Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mulligan
    I guess it's kind of like marriage. Someone needs to do the dishes so you put up with a little bit of guff.
     
    TRocket likes this.
  3. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,643
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Although I have heard before that controllers understand "practice approach" to mean that it's conducted under VFR unless otherwise specified, the Pilot/Controller Glossary doesn't define it that way. That might have been the source of the confusion.

    "PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACH− An
    instrument approach procedure conducted by a VFR
    or an IFR aircraft for the purpose of pilot training or
    proficiency demonstrations."​
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  4. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    7,294
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Yes, and as the definition states, it can be done done either for a VFR or IFR aircraft. This was a VFR aircraft. This pilot incorrectly assumed that since he requested an IAP, that automatically means he's requesting an IFR clearance. Plenty of VFR only pilots conducting practice approaches. It's about making your intentions clearly known from the get go.
     
    timwinters likes this.
  5. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,643
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Good point. Since it's an "or," the person making the request should specify which is wanted.
     
  6. TRocket

    TRocket Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    320
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tony
    My instructor had to beat this one into my head. For whatever reason, I would change frequencies and almost immediately key the mic...once a 70 year old with twice as many years flying as you have living gets on your ass about it, it becomes ingrained pretty quickly
     
  7. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    37,995
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Hahahaha. I know that feeling. Not about the radio, but flying with a 75 year old 40,000 guy can be intimidating at times and glorious when nuggets of wisdom are offered.

    Today was the first day where we flew with me in the right seat of the Seminole. Me pretending to teach him something is pretty weird for me. He's incredibly gracious about it and helps with tips.

    Biggest tip today was, "I'm not saying to never trust your students, but... just keep from having stuff in your hands during critical times and slide your feet up onto the rudder pedals when you think you might need them there, but try not to be real obvious about it. Let them fly the plane, but don't trust them 100%..."

    Which of course, I knew. But hearing it calmly and carefully reiterated by someone who's got more time teaching than I'll probably hit in a lifetime, changes the message ever so slightly. ;)
     
    TRocket likes this.
  8. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    717
    Location:
    Sw florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bob
    One that gets me is when a controller working multiple freqs gets ****y and gives a snide "listen up guys you stepping all over each other" sorry, but I can't hear people calling you on some other Freq.

    Bob
     
    denverpilot and mulligan like this.
  9. Rhino

    Rhino Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Double oak Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ray
    Fantastic recommendation!
     
  10. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,416
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    As a controller, one of my pet peeves is when someone starts a thread called, "controllers...what are your pet peeves?" and it morphs into a bunch of pilots talking about their pet peeves.
     
    deonb, mscard88, jaybee and 5 others like this.
  11. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,643
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    I had the same thought, and I'm not even a controller!
     
  12. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    7,294
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    The controller in that case isn't complaining about multiple aircraft on different frequencies. Getting "stepped on," or "blocked" is when two or more aircraft transmit over the same frequency. That's what they're complaining about.
     
  13. Ravioli

    Ravioli Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,486
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    You're far too controlling. I bet you don't go to uncontrolled airports. :)
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  14. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,416
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    I like controlled airports especially when I know the first and last names of most of the people I'm talking to. I wouldn't exactly say that I get special privileges but, I get special privileges. :)
     
  15. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    5,802
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    your privilege is showing....:eek:
     
  16. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    13,667
    Location:
    west Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Taylor
    I am pretty sure atc is grateful and appreciative when pilots 'help' them with their arduous task of moving and spacing aircraft. You know, pilot has ads-b or tcas and can see the 'exact same thing' as on the controller's scope. So he notices a 'better way' of working the flow, eg: "Approach, why don't you let me turn in now, and go ahead of that slower twin on the 15mi final, it might be a lot more efficient". Thoughtful and helpful, right?
     
  17. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    13,667
    Location:
    west Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Taylor
    Oh, a flight following one. Set it up with atc; frequency, squawk code, type and destination blah blah. Then, turn the radio down low, or turn up the tunes and zone out, have a mini-nap or start an involved conversation. Center will clear a path for you, right? If they can't get you after 3 or 4 tries, you are still good - they will move everyone else. You know where the sector line is and can set your timer to wake you up and catch your handoff!

    Edited to include this is a post intended to be sarcastic humor. (I had read about this a few years ago and was impressed by the writer (controller's) angst over the event. )
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  18. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    37,995
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Depends. They have a plan for you from the outset and may be limited by LoA or other rules you can't see. And no, pilots do NOT always have the same view on their traffic system the controller sees. So your "helpful idea" may just be radio blather they don't need. Or it might actually be helpful.

    I definitely wouldn't add wording like "it might be more efficient" to an idea transmission like that. I'd just say, "we could accept a heading of XXX to intercept early if that helps" -- they already have the picture and know what will work and what won't, and have been doing their job a lot longer than I have!

    I'd be interested to see what controllers think of "helpful" pilots and how often it's really helpful and how often it's just extra noise.

    Stuff where it has "worked" or the controller seemed to like it was things like you mentioned, a quick "we can do it slightly non-standard to help you out" and stuff where it seemed not to be a big deal was stuff like ...

    "Cessna XXX radar contact lost, we'll pick you up again in about 30 minutes. Remain this frequency."

    "Okay thanks. We could accept higher if you like."

    "No need. Radar is spotty there at your altitude but it's not a problem."

    "Roger, Cessna XXX".

    The other time being "helpful" seems to work is if they forget a Bravo clearance or something and it's too busy to get a word in edgewise so you legally and properly descend...

    "Cessna XXX I see you now at 8500 descending, cleared into the Bravo airspace, maintain 8500." I knew they just forgot the request, no big deal.

    And the constant bane of the non-GPS driver given a direct clearance...

    "Unable to accept direct, we are slant alpha equipped but we can accept a vector until receiving YYY and heading 320 looks good."

    Never had a controller not take me up on that offer, yet. Haha. If it's quieter I'll change that to "but we are vector qualified!" for a chuckle.

    The one I've never ever had a TRACON controller take me up on is the offer to descend below a Bravo and continue on course when we've had to deviate a significant distance off course. You can offer to get out of their hair and below the controlled airspace all day long and they'll never take you up on it around here, anyway.

    If you were really way off course and being vectored all over hell and gone, you could honestly force the issue and just say you're doing it, but I usually don't. "We will descend to XXXX and then cancel flight following" isn't really necessary, but I sometimes want to when they've needed to give me a tour of some lovely place, 20 miles off course.

    "Negative, just stay with me and I'll have direct for you in X miles."

    LOL. Controllers want to control. I can't blame em. It's what they do. ;)
     
  19. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,580
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    I think you might have missed Let'sgoflying!'s sarcasm. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of 'helpful' pilots are doing more harm than good.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  20. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    13,667
    Location:
    west Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Taylor
    sorry. sarcasm. more harm than good, definitely. And I'll bet aggravating!
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  21. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,416
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2

    Um, no. You might get a "why don't you just fly your airplane let me worry about the pattern." answer.

    I've done a LOT of training over the past 23 years as a controller. When a pilot "controls" himself or the pattern with suggestions (some of them good ideas) the trainee gets told "you may as well unplug if you're going to let the pilots make their own sequence."
     
  22. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    13,667
    Location:
    west Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Taylor
    Post edited to include that it was sarcasm, sorry
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  23. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,416
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    Well....don't ever do that again! :mad:

    ;) <---closest smiley we have to indicate sarcasm. We need a straight-faced smiley.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  24. Ravioli

    Ravioli Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,486
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Straight-faced smiley? Is this another Oxymoron thread?
     
  25. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,416
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    They're ALL smilies as per the little red box. Even the mad guy is a smiley.
     
  26. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    Most of this applies to the big boys and not so much GA...

    -When you are rattling off clearances without any dead air on the frequency during a busy arrival push and someone takes 20 seconds to slowly read-back everything with pauses in between each word.
    -When the 30 previous planes in the same spot at the same altitude report the field in sight but this particular plane "is looking", and everyone after them reports it immediately.
    -When every other plane complies with the speed you're giving and everyone else on the freq realizes you are giving appropriate slowing to the marker in a line up and you get the one that takes time to ask to slow, "unable unless you need a vector off the final for re-sequencing"..."ah we're okay".

    With my minor rants over, 99+% of pilots do a great job in my opinion and those GA that are obviously struggling for whatever reason, I always slow things down and help out in any way possible.
     
    Let'sgoflying! likes this.
  27. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    10,434
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Heard a Comair pilot bitch about a speed assignment going into KATL once. Capt says to arrival "do you know what speed this plane stalls at?", controller comes right back and says "no but your FO probably does". Classic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
    Sam D and Tampico Trauma like this.
  28. Approach_controller

    Approach_controller Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    177
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Approach_controller
    I had a beauty a few years back. We'd just gotten rid of speed reductions in the STARS 2 weeks prior. traffic is just now starting to build so im busy....ish about to get very busy soon, just not yet.

    Airliner x (airbus) was slowed to 250 at 11,000 at the boundary by center. Normal check in except pilot requests centers and my number. Get back to you sir. Make some transmissions then airliner x reduced speed to 210. CA erupts. What are we following? A TBM 8 ahead. Pause....


    CA we can beat him in
    Me (im losing my normal relaxed attitude) ok fine maintain 10,000 and 550 knots and expect that till a 5 mile final.
    CA I can't do that
    Me Roger expect to follow the TBM.
    CA turn him out
    Me hes a medevac turn right (away from the airport) x degrees right youre going to be following a 737 now advise when ready to copy the numbers as requested
    CA Its ok. Why is there so much traffic here anyway?
    Me world series game 7...
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  29. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,580
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    This just happened at LGA last night, and I immediately thought of your post from awhile back. LGA ground was getting busy with both inbounds and outbounds, and Endeavor gummed up the works by having to do a cross bleed start. There were several of us waiting on him to taxi out of the way once he was done. And sure enough, some whiny ass pilot had to make himself heard (he only gave his flight number, so I dunno what airline). In typical New Yorker fashion, the ground controller had a great response. You can hear it here:

    http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klga/KLGA-Gnd-Dec-14-2016-2200Z.mp3

    Scroll to 15:20 to hear the good stuff (although the situation had been brewing for a bit). In the long pause after the first exchange, I wanted to key up with a "Waaaaaaaah!", but decided against it. After the second pilot chimed in the controller finally had enough. Friggin' Awesome. :)
     
  30. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    10,434
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    There's always one. ;)
     
  31. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    6,812
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    Methinks you meant 250.
     
  32. Approach_controller

    Approach_controller Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    177
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Approach_controller
    Methinks you don't understand not so subtle hints.

    Try not being super pedantic. Allow me to elaborate further. 550 may not have been the speed required to build a hole in front of the LN and fit the slot in front, however any speed required to do so would have been unachievable to fly to a 5 mile final. Maybe 323 knots was required, the end result is the same and no im not type rated in an a319, but I didn't have the time or will to produce the POH or place a phone call to Toulouse.

    Dont let the meaning and intent get in the way of factiods to nit pick. I'll help you out with another pedantic nit pick, 550 in the bravo is a violation of the FARS that im not authorised to wave.

    I imagine you don't deal well with sarcasm either.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
    denverpilot likes this.
  33. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    37,995
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    I've seen conditions in haze and/or low sun angles where folks are just flat lying to you guys that they see jack... haha...

    They're just keeping your flow going and following the magenta line until they DO see the airport. Haha. They'll lie through their teeth not to annoy you. :)
     
    TheGolfPilot likes this.
  34. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kevin
    I know they do sometimes (and I'm thankful). ;)

    I'm also cognizant of the setting sun and/or changing wx conditions. There, for whatever reason, happens to be a certain group that can't quite see an airport as well as all the others but I'm not going to blast anyone on here. Unfortunately the rules required to make airports with multiple parallel runways legal require the out boards to be on visual's to run efficiently at max capacity. Triple simultaneous ILS's have long downwinds and the final controller has to switch frequencies to a final monitor early so fine tuning the final is lost.

    Blah, blah, blah, more than you guys care to hear I'm sure. Your point is valid.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  35. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,643
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    On the contrary, hearing the inside ATC stuff is interesting!
     
    mcdewey likes this.
  36. AKBill

    AKBill Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    793
    Location:
    Juneau, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKBill
    In the past I would ask the controller if they wanted me to extend my down wind to let a faster plane land. I don't do that know, I figure they (the controller) have a plan and no sense cluttering the radio. In the summer when Juneau is real busy I will ask for a "short approach / long landing" to get on and off the runway as soon as possible...
     
  37. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,643
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    After twenty-five years of flying out of a small urban airport that's hard to see from a distance even when it's severe clear, I've finally come to the conclusion that I might as well call it in sight as soon as I can positively identify its immediate neighborhood.
     
  38. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    6,812
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    I get it now, you were being unprofessional.
     
  39. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    13,168
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    Spotting the airfield is tough from across the bay at twilight, but spotting several distinctive nearby landmarks, especially the amphitheater, is considerably easier. I'll call the field in sight if I can positively identify landmarks around it under VFR. IFR, the field is much easier to spot from the IAP, especially if the REIL and beacon are lit.

    For Reid, it's a lot easier to spot the lake than the field, but most of us just follow highways in, as they form the SJC Class C boundary.
     
  40. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    10,434
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Hmm thought this was supposed to be controller's pet peeves....