Confusion about handbook

D

deaston

Pre-Flight
Joined
Sep 3, 2012
Messages
60
Display Name
Display name:
Dan
Below is from the Instrument Flying Handbook, talking about a turn and slip indicator. Is it me, or is this confusing:

The dial of these instruments is marked “2 MIN TURN.” Some turn-and-slip indicators used in faster aircraft are marked “4 MIN TURN.” In either instrument, a standard rate turn is being made whenever the needle aligns with a doghouse. A standard rate turn is 3° per second. In a 2 minute instrument, if the needle is one needle width either side of the center alignment mark, the turn is 3° per second and the turn takes 2 minutes to execute a 360° turn. In a 4 minute instrument, the same turn takes two widths deflection of the needle to achieve 3° per second.
Click to expand...

How is it that a standard rate turn is when the need lines up with the doghouse AND when it is deflected one needle width from the center alignment mark? :dunno:
 
Just to clarify, this is what I imagine "one needle width" of deflection looks like (more or less). Is that the wrong interpretation?
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    202.8 KB · Views: 64
They should have stopped at "doghouse".

They seem to have gone on rambling about "needle widths" which is generally useless information.

If it's lines up with the "doghouse" it's whatever is printed on the bottom.

Anything else is just a guess.

I don't think you'll see any questions about that strange second half of that paragraph on any tests.
 
Don't they go on to say "no one uses T&B anymore, get y'self one o' these"?
 

Attachments

  • turn-coordinator.jpg
    turn-coordinator.jpg
    34.9 KB · Views: 39
dtuuri said:
This is why y'all need me. :) They cut out a couple pictures, apparently:

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Yup...they don't make it clear that there is the "doghouse"-style and the "needle-width"-style.

Let'sgoflying! said:
Don't they go on to say "no one uses T&B anymore, get y'self one o' these"?
Click to expand...
Personally, I prefer the T&B if the TC isn't required to drive an autopilot.
 
i cant find that thing on my panel, help?

skyview405.png
 
dtuuri said:
This is why y'all need me. :) They cut out a couple pictures, apparently:

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Ah. That makes a lot more sense. I didn't know there was another type. Thanks!

Here is more on the subject. And here I thought the handbook author was just being obtuse about the definition of a needle width. Guess something just got lost in editing...

During and just after WWII most T&Bs were made more sensitive and little dog houses were added on each side of the previous single indicator to show a standard rate turn of three degrees per second. To get a standard rate turn on an instrument that only had the single indicator at the top, the aircraft was flown so that the side of the needle just touched the one and only "dog house". The new style was called a double needle width T&B.
Click to expand...

http://www.csobeech.com/turn-coordinator.html
 
deaston said:
Ah. That makes a lot more sense. I didn't know there was another type. Thanks!



Here is more on the subject. And here I thought the handbook author was just being obtuse about the definition of a needle width. Guess something just got lost in editing...







http://www.csobeech.com/turn-coordinator.html
Click to expand...


About 40 years got lost. LOL.

They only removed the old compass style RMI questions a couple of years ago. Haha. Dumbest questions in the world. "Which direction do you turn it?"

Their answer was convoluted. The real world answer was "If I have to use that thing I'm probably already in deep trouble, but if I turn it and it goes the wrong way, I'll just turn it the other direction." ;)
 
It just keeps getting better...

Page 6-2 has a section on "Performance Instruments", yet it omits the Heading Indicator. Later, on page 6-19 (the glass cockpit section), it includes the HI as a performance instrument. Which is it? I'm betting that glass -vs- analog has nothing to do with it, and hat it was omitted on page 6-2.

I'm making a genuine attempt to learn this crap rather than just study for the test, but I'm about to throw in the towel.

For those of you that know how the FAA thinks, I am under the impression that there is always a primary and one or more supporting instruments for pitch, bank, and power. If that is true, why are there multiple diagrams that only list two primary instruments (figures 7-25, 7-26, 7-31).

The sooner I get this test out of the way and on to practical training, the better...
 
deaston said:
It just keeps getting better...

Page 6-2 has a section on "Performance Instruments", yet it omits the Heading Indicator. Later, on page 6-19 (the glass cockpit section), it includes the HI as a performance instrument. Which is it? I'm betting that glass -vs- analog has nothing to do with it, and hat it was omitted on page 6-2.
Click to expand...
The second explanation is better. When they update these books they make mistakes. If you notify them others won't have to experience your frustration in the future.

deaston said:
I'm making a genuine attempt to learn this crap rather than just study for the test, but I'm about to throw in the towel.
Click to expand...
Take a break and go through these lessons, then pick it up again:

deaston said:
For those of you that know how the FAA thinks, I am under the impression that there is always a primary and one or more supporting instruments for pitch, bank, and power. If that is true, why are there multiple diagrams that only list two primary instruments (figures 7-25, 7-26, 7-31).
Click to expand...
They left them off the drawing, but it should be obvious by now. Here, start with this lesson:

dtuuri
 
denverpilot said:
About 40 years got lost. LOL.

They only removed the old compass style RMI questions a couple of years ago. Haha. Dumbest questions in the world. "Which direction do you turn it?"

Their answer was convoluted. The real world answer was "If I have to use that thing I'm probably already in deep trouble, but if I turn it and it goes the wrong way, I'll just turn it the other direction." ;)
Click to expand...

Is that for the DG slaved to an electronic compass stuff? If so, I have one of those and I have no idea which button to press. Never had to, and if I did, I'd just press one and if that didn't do what I want, I'd press the other one. Good to know they're gone..
 
Way too much "noise" on that glass panel.
 
aterpster said:
That stuff is supposed to be on two displays. Even then, it is a human-factors load for single pilot ops.
Click to expand...

Oh, I was just referring to the left third of that disaster.

Never understood the need for tapes in a piston GA.
 
On page 9-5, it says

NOTE: In Figure 9-7, for the aircraft closest to the station, the WCA is 10° left and the RB is 10° right.
Click to expand...

I'm looking at figure 9-7 and it sure looks to me like for the plane closest to the station, WCA is 15° and RB is 5°. Can somebody confirm?
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    520.6 KB · Views: 16
Last edited:
dtuuri said:
The second explanation is better. When they update these books they make mistakes. If you notify them others won't have to experience your frustration in the future.

They left them off the drawing, but it should be obvious by now. Here, start with this lesson:

dtuuri
Click to expand...

The issue is that the vast majority of people likely reading these books (at least closely enough to catch errors) are students like me. As a student, I don't have a lot of confidence that I can tell the difference between my error and the FAA's errors. I assume they are my errors, so I read and re-read multiple times trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I did find an email address and sent in the errors so far (confirmed by others here). No response....

I checked out your stuff. I like it! Still feel like I need to go through "the source" to make sure I'm ready for the test thought.

Thanks for the help.

Edit: I went through the Needlework slides. Makes much more sense than actually turning the plane to parrallel the desired course just to figure out the intercept angle. Also see that there wasn't just one error on the diagram in the handbook. Thanks again
 
Last edited:
deaston said:
On page 9-5, it says



I'm looking at figure 9-7 and it sure looks to me like for the plane closest to the station, WCA is 15° and RB is 5°. Can somebody confirm?
Click to expand...

You are correct, the accompanying text is wrong. Although this is an ADF tracking problem the principles are used the same way when reading bearing pointers on primary flight displays (PFDs).

Thank you for your patronage, btw. :)

dtuuri
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top