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Joffreyyy

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Joffreyyy
I've read the AC on private carriage vs common carriage and holding out but what is an easy way to explain it maybe a few examples ? Thanks.
 
From an opinion of the General Counsel:

A person is considered to be engaged in "common carriage" when "holding out" to the general public or to a segment of the public as willing to furnish transportation within the limits of its facilities to any person who wants it. Advertising through telephone yellow pages, billboard, television, radio, and individual ticketing are examples that have been legally found to be holding out.

Bob
 
...and using ride sharing websites/apps as far as the FAA is concerned (and this hasn't been overruled in the courts).
 
Joffreyyy said:
I've read the AC on private carriage vs common carriage and holding out but what is an easy way to explain it maybe a few examples ? Thanks.
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Why do you want to know?
 
The AC discussing public vs private carriage is woefully ou of date. For one thing, there is a Part 135 certificate for private carriage.
 
Just because such a thing exists, doesn't change the fact that none is required. I suspect your reference to the latter is for things like NetJets that allow the substitution of non-owned airplanes on certain flights.
 
Clip4 said:
If it is really private carriage, they don't need a 135.
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I use to think so too. Then I started looking at references like:119.5(e): A person authorized to engage in noncommon or private carriage under part 125 or part 135 of this chapter, or both, shall be issued only one certificate authorizing such carriage, regardless of the kind of operation or the class or size of aircraft to be operated.

119.5(h) A person holding an Operating Certificate authorizing noncommon or private carriage operations shall not conduct any operations in common carriage.​

FSIMS Scroll down to see a sample private carriage Part 135 certificate.​

The references you are looking at? I'd love to be wrong on this.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I use to think so too. Then I started looking at references like:119.5(e): A person authorized to engage in noncommon or private carriage under part 125 or part 135 of this chapter, or both, shall be issued only one certificate authorizing such carriage, regardless of the kind of operation or the class or size of aircraft to be operated.

119.5(h) A person holding an Operating Certificate authorizing noncommon or private carriage operations shall not conduct any operations in common carriage.​

FSIMS Scroll down to see a sample private carriage Part 135 certificate.​

The references you are looking at? I'd love to be wrong on this.
Click to expand...

119.5(h) A person holding an Operating Certificate authorizing noncommon or private carriage operations shall not conduct any operations in common carriage.

Part 125 prescribes rules governing the operations of U.S.-registered civil airplanes which have a seating configuration of 20 or more passengers or a maximum payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more when common carriage is not involved. The FAA issues Part 125 cerificates. 119.5(h) is the prohibition on 125 common carriage.

Part 135 prescribes rules governing the commuter or on-demand operations of each person who holds or is required to hold an Air Carrier Certificate or Operating Certificate under part 119.


119.5(e): A person authorized to engage in noncommon or private carriage under part 125 or part 135 of this chapter, or both, shall be issued only one certificate authorizing such carriage, regardless of the kind of operation or the class or size of aircraft to be operated.

What they are saying here is you cannot hold a 135 cert and a 125 cert. If you have both operations, you can't split your operations and you get a 135 cert for all of it.
 
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I will stuck with my response based on 119.23
(b) Each person who conducts noncommon carriage (except as provided in § 91.501(b) of this chapter) or private carriage operations for compensation or hire with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of less than 20 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of less than 6,000 pounds shall—
(1) Comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements in subpart C of this part;
(2) Conduct those operations in accordance with the requirements of part 135 of this chapter, except for those requirements applicable only to commuter operations; and
(3) Be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.​
And cases like FAA v Gorman, involving the revocation of the pilot certificates of a guy who insisted he didn't need an operating certificate for private carriage.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I will stuck with my response based on 119.23
(b) Each person who conducts noncommon carriage (except as provided in § 91.501(b) of this chapter) or private carriage operations for compensation or hire with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of less than 20 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of less than 6,000 pounds shall—
(1) Comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements in subpart C of this part;
(2) Conduct those operations in accordance with the requirements of part 135 of this chapter, except for those requirements applicable only to commuter operations; and
(3) Be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.​
And cases like FAA v Gorman, involving the revocation of the pilot certificates of a guy who insisted he didn't need an operating certificate for private carriage.
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Gorman was both holding out (had a sign on his plane) and was carrying checks for hire in his aircraf. That carriage was in no way private. You are not going to provide an aircraft and pilot services for a third party without a 135.

Check this out https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-84.pdf
 
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Didn't an examiner who used to write a column for one of the magazines get crossways with the Feds about this stuff?
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Didn't an examiner who used to write a column for one of the magazines get crossways with the Feds about this stuff?
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Has there been an examiner who decided to write for a column for a magazine that didn't get crossways with the FAA over something?
 
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