Commercial pilot scenario's

david0tey

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Checkride approaching. Would like clarification on a few possible scenario questions...

1:

I own the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

2:

I rent the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

3:

I own a flight school business (Part 91); Do the exceptions in Part 119 still require that I get permission from the FAA to act as a commercial operator?



Thanks.
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

Checkride approaching. Would like clarification on a few possible scenario questions...

1:

I own the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

2:

I rent the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

3:

I own a flight school business (Part 91); Do the exceptions in Part 119 still require that I get permission from the FAA to act as a commercial operator?



Thanks.

My understanding is that 1 and 2 require at least an air taxi certificate in addition to the commercial pilot certificate. Scenario 2 will probably violate the FBO's rules and/or insurance requirements. I don't know what additional requirements the FAA might have to use a rental plane in an air taxi operation, and I don't know the answer to scenario 3.
 
Checkride approaching. Would like clarification on a few possible scenario questions...

1:

I own the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

2:

I rent the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

3:

I own a flight school business (Part 91); Do the exceptions in Part 119 still require that I get permission from the FAA to act as a commercial operator?



Thanks.

No, no, and no. (Assuming that you mean run the flight school, not an air taxi)
 
1 and 2. No. And don't talk about it after the flight.

3. Not for a flight school
 
As a general rule, a CPL doesn't let you charge for flying. It gives you the opportunity to get hired by an operation that charges for flying, then pays you.
 
Not a troll question, but say I went in 50/50 with a partner on a Malibu. I have a commercial, and he is a non-pilot. Could he pay me to fly him around in it on "his" flight time, using "his" 50% of the plane?
 
he rents the plane, he happens to ask you to fly... You're all set, as long as you didn't rent the plane to him... Or advertise as such..
 
Checkride approaching. Would like clarification on a few possible scenario questions...

1:

I own the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

2:

I rent the airplane; a friend offers to pay me to take him to an airport 100NM away. Can I do it?

3:

I own a flight school business (Part 91); Do the exceptions in Part 119 still require that I get permission from the FAA to act as a commercial operator?



Thanks.

1. Requires 135

2. Requires 135 *If your friend rents the plane on his card, he can hire you to fly it*

3. Yes, selling rides is different than selling instruction.
 
Not a troll question, but say I went in 50/50 with a partner on a Malibu. I have a commercial, and he is a non-pilot. Could he pay me to fly him around in it on "his" flight time, using "his" 50% of the plane?
Can't take my answer to the bank (or the FAA) but I would think the same analysis the FAA applies to 100 inspections for training aircraft might apply. In the co-ownership situation, the FAA has said that 100 hour inspections are not needed because the co-owner student is considered to have provided the airplane, even if another co-owner is the instructor.

In your scenario, the non-pilot owner has rights of operational control and might also be considered to have provided the airplane, and is just hiring a pilot.

The answer can also depend in part on the contents of whatever agreement there might be between the co-owners.
 
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Thanks for the responses.

Follow-up question:

Assume I have my cfi rating and own an airplane. If I allow an aspiring pilot to buy into my airplane, can I give him instruction in that airplane? If so, does my airplane now require the 100hr inspection? I'm sure the insurance rules vary by insurer but would this be legal by FAA standards?
 
Funny, funny. I have read and read, and came up with the exact same understanding. I was, of course, popped that question on the oral (last week). I answered with the standard, no way, I can't take my buddy. It's part 135 and I'm part 91. Big no no.

My examiner promptly corrected me... yes you can! Provided you're not holding out (advertising, signage, word of mouth, etc). If it's a buddy and he says, "Hey Joe, can you please fly me somewhere and I'll give you $500"... supposedly you can. In fact, she said that you can do it on a regular basis and have regular customers and contracts up to 19. Why 19? That is the rough range listed in the advisory circular.

She cited this advisory circular: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-12A.pdf

She also indicated by name an FAA investigator that said himself this was an OK thing to do. In the debrief, my 45 year-flying instructor was shocked to hear her response, as was I.

So, the book answer is "no and no"... but in real life there may be a shred of hope using this advisory circular. If you really want a challenge, you could always print it and bring it into your checkride... but I'm sure the answer your examiner would be looking for is the "no and no"... although that's the answer I thought mine was looking for.

Caveat: While your plane may only be part 91, keep in mind it would still have to be within the 100 hour inspections since it's for hire.
 
Funny, funny. I have read and read, and came up with the exact same understanding. I was, of course, popped that question on the oral (last week). I answered with the standard, no way, I can't take my buddy. It's part 135 and I'm part 91. Big no no.

My examiner promptly corrected me... yes you can! Provided you're not holding out (advertising, signage, word of mouth, etc). If it's a buddy and he says, "Hey Joe, can you please fly me somewhere and I'll give you $500"... supposedly you can. In fact, she said that you can do it on a regular basis and have regular customers and contracts up to 19. Why 19? That is the rough range listed in the advisory circular.

She cited this advisory circular: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-12A.pdf

She also indicated by name an FAA investigator that said himself this was an OK thing to do. In the debrief, my 45 year-flying instructor was shocked to hear her response, as was I.

So, the book answer is "no and no"... but in real life there may be a shred of hope using this advisory circular. If you really want a challenge, you could always print it and bring it into your checkride... but I'm sure the answer your examiner would be looking for is the "no and no"... although that's the answer I thought mine was looking for.

Caveat: While your plane may only be part 91, keep in mind it would still have to be within the 100 hour inspections since it's for hire.

That AC is woefully out of date and very misleading. It talks about "private carriage" as though it were an answer to flying without an operating certificate.

FWIW, This is a copy/paste from a post I wrote more than 7 years ago:
Back to 119, take a look at 119.5 (e) and (h):

==============================
119.5(e): A person authorized to engage in noncommon or private carriage under part 125 or part 135 of this chapter, or both, shall be issued only one certificate authorizing such carriage, regardless of the kind of operation or the class or size of aircraft to be operated.
==============================

==============================
119.5(h) A person holding an Operating Certificate authorizing noncommon or private carriage operations shall not conduct any operations in common carriage.
==============================

Don't confuse the "public vs private carriage" issue with the need for an operating certificate (I used to - this stuff ain't easy). If you look at the typical Part 135 Operating Certificate, the first space after identifying the holder will describe the type of operations. For a 135 private carriage operation, it will say "Private Carriage Operations."

Take a look at http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v02 air op & agency cert/chapter 01/02_001_004.htm and scroll down to Figure 2 - you'll see a sample for a private carriage operating certificate.

Other than fractionals, a true Part 91 operation does not involve carriage or persons and property for hire at all, except for the specific activities excepted.

We all tend to confuse them because the differences are complicated and the lines fuzzy, but the issues surrounding these three things are all different:

  • Private or Commercial Pilot: is the pilot being paid to fly?
  • Private or Commercial Operator: Are people or cargo be carried for hire?
  • Public or Private:Is there a holding out of availability to the general public?

AC 120-12A sure sounds like it's authorizing Part 91 private carriage, which doesn't help the confusion (Personally, I think it's outdated and needs to be replaced; take a look at the Part 91 references in it). Bottom line is that I am unaware of even one case in which the issue of private or public was raised by the FAA where the NTSB found that carriage was private.​
 
That AC is woefully out of date and very misleading. It talks about "private carriage" as though it were an answer to flying without an operating certificate.

FWIW, This is a copy/paste from a post I wrote more than 7 years ago:
Back to 119, take a look at 119.5 (e) and (h):

==============================
119.5(e): A person authorized to engage in noncommon or private carriage under part 125 or part 135 of this chapter, or both, shall be issued only one certificate authorizing such carriage, regardless of the kind of operation or the class or size of aircraft to be operated.
==============================

==============================
119.5(h) A person holding an Operating Certificate authorizing noncommon or private carriage operations shall not conduct any operations in common carriage.
==============================

Don't confuse the "public vs private carriage" issue with the need for an operating certificate (I used to - this stuff ain't easy). If you look at the typical Part 135 Operating Certificate, the first space after identifying the holder will describe the type of operations. For a 135 private carriage operation, it will say "Private Carriage Operations."

Take a look at http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v02 air op & agency cert/chapter 01/02_001_004.htm and scroll down to Figure 2 - you'll see a sample for a private carriage operating certificate.

Other than fractionals, a true Part 91 operation does not involve carriage or persons and property for hire at all, except for the specific activities excepted.

We all tend to confuse them because the differences are complicated and the lines fuzzy, but the issues surrounding these three things are all different:

  • Private or Commercial Pilot: is the pilot being paid to fly?
  • Private or Commercial Operator: Are people or cargo be carried for hire?
  • Public or Private:Is there a holding out of availability to the general public?

AC 120-12A sure sounds like it's authorizing Part 91 private carriage, which doesn't help the confusion (Personally, I think it's outdated and needs to be replaced; take a look at the Part 91 references in it). Bottom line is that I am unaware of even one case in which the issue of private or public was raised by the FAA where the NTSB found that carriage was private.​

Thanks, Mark. My DPE got the same look from my CFI that she got from me. She was very convicted to this AC... I am with you though, all of my reading (including some of your posts from many years ago) pointed the other direction.

All of that said, from a practical matter, are you aware of any enforcement actions that have occurred because of "Bob is flying is buddy for hire" part 91 scenarios? If it's that ambiguous from the FAA, how can they properly enforce it considering there is so much confusion on the ground... and evidently... within the FAA's own enforcement division?
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

...AC 120-12A sure sounds like it's authorizing Part 91 private carriage, which doesn't help the confusion (Personally, I think it's outdated and needs to be replaced; take a look at the Part 91 references in it). Bottom line is that I am unaware of even one case in which the issue of private or public was raised by the FAA where the NTSB found that carriage was private.[/INDENT]

Is the fact that the AC isn't marked as superseded on the FAA Web site likely to be a successful defense in the event of an enforcement action?
 
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Is the fact that the AC isn't marked as superseded on the FAA Web site likely to be a successful defense in the event of an enforcement action?

Nope. Because the FAA is allowed to make up or change their interpretation of the regulations on the, um, fly.

Not only do we have to know the regs, we have to know what they think the regs might really mean at some point in the future.
 
Yeah, but still begs the question:

Are there any known enforcement actions against "Bob flying an acquaintance for cash"? or any successful enforcement actions against someone who unsuccessfully argued the referenced AC in a similar scenario?

The only enforcement actions that I could find were much larger scale ones... more like ABC Corporation was flying passengers on a part 91 ticket and should have been 135.

This was one of the arguments my DPE threw up when we both challenged her on it. Her comments were not only that she had an actual FAA enforcement guy tell her that it was permissible, but also challenged us to go try and find real enforcement actions... they aren't there (according to her). In fact, she went as far as saying this was as big a myth as the "oversquare" myth.
 
Can't take my answer to the bank (or the FAA) but I would think the same analysis the FAA applies to 100 inspections for training aircraft might apply. In the co-ownership situation, the FAA has said that 100 hour inspections are not needed because the co-owner student is considered to have provided the airplane, even if another co-owner is the instructor.

In your scenario, the non-pilot owner has rights of operational control and might also be considered to have provided the airplane, and is just hiring a pilot.

The answer can also depend in part on the contents of whatever agreement there might be between the co-owners.

I wonder how the Chief Counsel opinion regarding flying club's and members providing other members with instruction plays into this? Essentially, the Chief Counsel said that Club's have to do 100hr inspections for members to provide other members with instruction, unless outside instructors are also allowed to instruct in the planes.

See Letter to Forest Reid, August 20, 2004 (doesn't seem to be online via FAA, though). Here's the text:

Your letter of May 3, 2004, requests an interpretation of 14 C.F.R. § 91.409(b) which requires a 100-hour inspection to be performed on aircraft that is engaged in the carriage of persons for hire, or that is used by the owner to provide flight instruction. Specifically, you asked if a 100-hour inspection is required for an aircraft that is owned by a flying club and rented to club members. As you explained in your letter, the flying club is a non-profit corporation that owns the aircraft. Members of the club are required to pay a nominal monthly fee and allowed to rent the aircraft on an hourly basis for personal travel and flight instruction. In light of the arrangement described above, you asked the following questions:
1. Does the FAA consider the non-profit corporate entity to be a
"person" for the purpose of applying the Federal Aviation Regulations .
(FARs)?
2. Would the aircraft be exempt from the 100-hour inspection requirement
if a member received flying lessons in the aircraft from a flight.
instructor who was also a member of the club?

In answering these questions, it is helpful to restate the FAA's position regarding the 100-hour inspection requirement. 'File FAA has previously stated that. the 100-hour inspection is required only when the aircraft is carrying a person for hire, or when a person is providing flight instruction for hire in his or her own aircraft. (See Interpretation 1984-10). A later FAA interpretation clarified that the 100-hour inspection requirement is not dependent on who owns or possesses the aircraft, but rather on how the aircraft is operated. (See Interpretation 2000-2). In that interpretation, the FAA stated that the 100-hour inspection is required if you operate an aircraft to carry a person (other than a crewmember) for hire, or when you provide flight instruction for hire and you are providing the aircraft. Id.

The FAA defines a person as an individual, firm, partnership, corporation,
company, association, joint-stock association, or governmental entity. See 14 C.F.R. 1.1 (2001). Thus, the non-profit corporation would be considered a
person under the FAA's rules.

According to your letter, the flying club members contract with an independent flight instructor for flying lessons. In some cases, the flight instructor is also a member of the flying club, hut instructors who are not members are permitted to provide instruction in the aircraft as well. Under these circumstances, it appears that the flying club merely rents the aircraft to its members, and therefore, would not be required to perform the 100-hour inspection. Based on your description,
the flight instructors are not provided by the corporation as part of
the aircraft rental, the flight instructors are not paid by the corporation to
provide flight instruction and there is nothing prohibiting members from hiring a flight instructor who is not a member of the club. Therefore, § 91.409(b) would be inapplicable.

If, however, the arrangement changed such that the flying club provided both the aircraft and the instructor, then a 100-hour inspection would be required; and it is important to note that the FAA will interpret "providing the flight instructor" very broadly. For example, if the flying club contracted with independent flight instructors to provide lessons for its members, and the members paid an hourly rate to the club for the use of the aircraft, and a separate fee directly to the instructor for the flying lessons, the FAA would likely find that the aircraft and the instructor are provided by the same entity, even though the instructor is an independent contractor who is paid separately. In the FAA's view, the contractual relationship between the instructor and the flying club for flight instruction services would he a sufficient nexus to find that the club is "providing" the aircraft and the instructor. On the other hand, if the independent contractor is truly independent and bears no flight training connection to the flying club. then § 91.409(h) would not apply.

Finally, with respect to instructors who are members of the flying club, the FAA position is that a member-instructor providing lessons to other members would not implicate § 91.409(b) as long as: 1) there is no contractual relationship between the member-instructor and the flying club for the provision of flight instruction services, 2) the member-instructor is not recommended or given a preference by the flying club, and 3) the members are free to choose instructors who are not members of the flying club. The FAA considers these conditions to be sufficient to ensure that the flying club does not circumvent the regulations by using its members as instructors.

We trust that this satisfactorily responds to your request. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
 
Yeah, but still begs the question:

Are there any known enforcement actions against "Bob flying an acquaintance for cash"? or any successful enforcement actions against someone who unsuccessfully argued the referenced AC in a similar scenario?

The only enforcement actions that I could find were much larger scale ones... more like ABC Corporation was flying passengers on a part 91 ticket and should have been 135.

This was one of the arguments my DPE threw up when we both challenged her on it. Her comments were not only that she had an actual FAA enforcement guy tell her that it was permissible, but also challenged us to go try and find real enforcement actions... they aren't there (according to her). In fact, she went as far as saying this was as big a myth as the "oversquare" myth.

I don't know about enforcement, but I'm not sure how your DPE would have argued that its not a part 135 operation under 119.23.

§ 119.23 Operators engaged in passenger-carrying operations, cargo operations, or both with airplanes when common carriage is not involved.
(a) Each person who conducts operations when common carriage is not involved with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20 seats or more, excluding each crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, shall, unless deviation authority is issued—
(1) Comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements ofpart 125 of this chapter;
(2) Conduct its operations with those airplanes in accordance with the requirements ofpart 125 of this chapter; and
(3) Be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.
(b) Each person who conducts noncommon carriage (except as provided in§ 91.501(b) of this chapter) or private carriage operations for compensation or hire with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of less than 20 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of less than 6,000 pounds shall—
(1) Comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements in subpart C of this part;
(2) Conduct those operations in accordance with the requirements of part 135 of this chapter, except for those requirements applicable only to commuter operations; and
(3) Be issued operations specifications in accordance with those requirements.
[Doc. No. 28154, 60 FR 65913, Dec. 20, 1995, as amended by Amdt. 119-2, 61 FR 30434, June 14, 1996]
 
Is the fact that the AC isn't marked as superseded on the FAA Web site likely to be a successful defense in the event of an enforcement action?
It wasn't in this one. Gorman v NTSB.

It's a US Court of Appeals decision upholding an enforcement action revoking a pilot's commercial certificate for engaging in a cargo operation.

The case is interesting from two perspectives. One is the FAA position the case that AC126-12A "had not been revised since 1986 and therefore did not take into account FAR Part 119, which 'was issued and became effective later in time' and therefore 'better represents the FAA's position with respect to private carriage.'" Don't ask me why 126-12A hasn't been updated or trashed. I think it should have been years ago.

The second is the insight into what happens when these types of situations occur (at least in the absence of an accident). If you go through the brain damage of reading the case, you'll see that the ASI bent over backwards to get voluntary compliance.
 
Nope. Because the FAA is allowed to make up or change their interpretation of the regulations on the, um, fly.

Not only do we have to know the regs, we have to know what they think the regs might really mean at some point in the future.
Actually there are cases where an AC has been used successfully in defense of an enforcement action. My favorite is the Cannavo "duct tape" case.
While the circular may be “advisory,” it purports to inform the industry of practices that are acceptable to the Administrator. Pilots and mechanics should not be subject to enforcement action because their paths cross with an inspector who does not find the Administrator’s published advice to be controlling.
 
Yeah, but still begs the question:

Are there any known enforcement actions against "Bob flying an acquaintance for cash"? or any successful enforcement actions against someone who unsuccessfully argued the referenced AC in a similar scenario?

The only enforcement actions that I could find were much larger scale ones... more like ABC Corporation was flying passengers on a part 91 ticket and should have been 135.

This was one of the arguments my DPE threw up when we both challenged her on it. Her comments were not only that she had an actual FAA enforcement guy tell her that it was permissible, but also challenged us to go try and find real enforcement actions... they aren't there (according to her). In fact, she went as far as saying this was as big a myth as the "oversquare" myth.


No, there aren't, because nobody cares about that. 135 was written as a response to the outcry from The Day the Music Died crash.

Even if you are doing things that are questionable or straight up illegal the first thing that happens is they tell you to stop. No enforcement action. In fact, as you likely notice, the FSDO will issue many warnings for several years before actually creating an enforcement action.

The FAA is a lazy tiger whose teeth hurt. Pet him and toss him some ground meat and he'll be good to you.
 
........
The FAA defines a person as an individual, firm, partnership, corporation,
company, association, joint-stock association, or governmental entity. See 14 C.F.R. 1.1 (2001). Thus, the non-profit corporation would be considered a
person under the FAA's rules.
.......

Hmmm... Glad to see that at least the FAA agreed with Mitt Romney... "Corporations are people, my friend!"

Henning said:
No, there aren't, because nobody cares about that. 135 was written as a response to the outcry from The Day the Music Died crash.

Even if you are doing things that are questionable or straight up illegal the first thing that happens is they tell you to stop. No enforcement action. In fact, as you likely notice, the FSDO will issue many warnings for several years before actually creating an enforcement action.

The FAA is a lazy tiger whose teeth hurt. Pet him and toss him some ground meat and he'll be good to you.

Interesting. That said, there are a handful of FAA ladies that I've met over the past few years that I'd love to toss some err... meat... if ya know what I mean.

In all seriousness, this is a very interesting discussion. At face value looks like 119.23 is the catch-all. I'll have to look deeper into that...
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

It wasn't in this one. Gorman v NTSB.

It's a US Court of Appeals decision upholding an enforcement action revoking a pilot's commercial certificate for engaging in a cargo operation.

The case is interesting from two perspectives. One is the FAA position the case that AC126-12A "had not been revised since 1986 and therefore did not take into account FAR Part 119, which 'was issued and became effective later in time' and therefore 'better represents the FAA's position with respect to private carriage.'" Don't ask me why 126-12A hasn't been updated or trashed. I think it should have been years ago.

The second is the insight into what happens when these types of situations occur (at least in the absence of an accident). If you go through the brain damage of reading the case, you'll see that the ASI bent over backwards to get voluntary compliance.

If the ASI went to that much trouble to educate him, at least he was warned. In cases where that doesn't happen, sanctioning someone for following the FAA's published guidance would be fundamentally unjust, IMO.
 
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Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

Hmmm... Glad to see that at least the FAA agreed with Mitt Romney... "Corporations are people, my friend!"

Why do people always say "my friend" when they mean the opposite? :rofl:

When I heard him make that statement, I would have loved to see the look on his face if someone had shouted out "So are unions!"
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

Why do people always say "my friend" when they mean the opposite? :rofl:

When I heard him make that statement, I would have loved to see the look on his face if someone had shouted out "So are unions!"

I never understood why people got so bent up over that statement. I think it ultimately is 1 of 2 things that led to his defeat. In the eyes of the law (FAA, IRS, etc), corporations are, indeed, "people".
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

Why do people always say "my friend" when they mean the opposite? :rofl:

When I heard him make that statement, I would have loved to see the look on his face if someone had shouted out "So are unions!"

Because it sounds so much nicer than "You dumb assed mother ****ers."
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

I never understood why people got so bent up over that statement. I think it ultimately is 1 of 2 things that led to his defeat. In the eyes of the law (FAA, IRS, etc), corporations are, indeed, "people".

Because it's morally indefensible. Corporations are not people, and should never be treated with equal or greater regard. He lost Mormons over that. That we have that mindset is why America is failing and falling to China.
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

I never understood why people got so bent up over that statement. I think it ultimately is 1 of 2 things that led to his defeat. In the eyes of the law (FAA, IRS, etc), corporations are, indeed, "people".

I think other issues were more important factors in his defeat, but I think the concept needs to be applied even-handedly. I also think there are limits to how far the concept should be carried. For example, it wouldn't make sense to prosecute someone for murder for dissolving a corporation.
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

Because it's morally indefensible. Corporations are not people, and should never be treated with equal or greater regard. He lost Mormons over that. That we have that mindset is why America is failing and falling to China.

I think the concept is useful to a degree, but doesn't make sense when treated as an absolute.
 
Yeah, they certainly should not be dissolved in there is any impending action against them, and there should also be a many year (10?) clawback rule.
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

When I heard him make that statement, I would have loved to see the look on his face if someone had shouted out "So are unions!"

I must be smarter than the average union member, since I knew what he meant. In fact, it was all the shouting (interrupting) from the unruly Democrats in attendance that led to the smear job by Debbie Wasserman Schultz:

DES MOINES — Mitt Romney’s visit to the Iowa State Fair on Thursday might have been the best debate prep session he could have hoped for.

Romney’s appearance at the fair’s soapbox grew unusually testy when a few angry people heckled the Republican presidential candidate over his declaration not to raise taxes. They urged the campaign front-runner to increase taxes on the wealthy to help fund such entitlement programs as Social Security and Medicare.

Romney explained that one way to fulfill promises on entitlement programs is to “raise taxes on people,” but before he could articulate his position on not raising taxes, someone interrupted.

“Corporations!” a protester shouted, apparently urging Romney to raise taxes on corporations that have benefited from loopholes in the tax code. “Corporations!”

“Corporations are people, my friend,” Romney said.

Some people in the front of the audience shouted, “No, they’re not!”

“Of course they are,” Romney said. “Everything corporations earn ultimately goes to people. Where do you think it goes?”

The heated exchange prompted an attack from Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.​

Shouting, "So are unions!" Would have been a non sequitur because it would place them in the same company as the evil corporations the mob meant to tarnish.

dtuuri
 
This is correct, the MONEY goes to people, which means that if the corporation is a person as well, the people who run that person can steal the money from that person who gets it first.

Now what about the fact that every dollar of profit earned is added to the national debt? That's the real scam of capitalism and how those who control the capital production get a piece of even deal that ever turns a profit. That is the reality of an economy based on fiat currency. Every dollar of profit s a dollar the Fed creates. Every time the Fed creates a dollar, a fee is charged and added to the national debt, and interest starts accruing on it. Look at a 20-50 year graph of the national debt and look what happened to it at the beginning of Quantitative Easing. We're over 20 trillion now, that is the cost of our money, and our lifestyle, that we have borrowed from the rest of the world, and the note is due and about to be called.
 
Now what about the fact that every dollar of profit earned is added to the national debt?...

OK Henning. I'll bite. Let's try a little thought experiment. Two people live on an island -- person A and person B. They'd like to trade with each other but want to use a currency -- so they pick out 10 shells each and create their own fiat currency.

On day 1, A wants to fish but he has no supplies. B agrees to make a hook for him and charges him 1 shell for it. A fishes and catches a nice big fish by using the hook (let's say its a one-use hook). He sells the fish to B for 2 shells (thereby making a 1 shell profit). Later that day, B decides he wants to pick coconuts but he can't reach them. A fashions a long pole and sells it to B for 1 shell. B gets a coconut and sells it to A for 2 shells (also making a one shell profit). So, at the end of day 1, both A and B have made a 1 shell profit (not counting the additional profit from hook and stick making for simplicity) and both have 10 shells -- just like at the start of the day.

This goes on every day for 10 years. Both A and B have made 3,650 shells in profit and both miraculously end the 10 years with 10 shells each.
 
Re: Commercial pilot scenarios

I must be smarter than the average union member, since I knew what he meant. In fact, it was all the shouting (interrupting) from the unruly Democrats in attendance that led to the smear job by Debbie Wasserman Schultz:

DES MOINES — Mitt Romney’s visit to the Iowa State Fair on Thursday might have been the best debate prep session he could have hoped for.

Romney’s appearance at the fair’s soapbox grew unusually testy when a few angry people heckled the Republican presidential candidate over his declaration not to raise taxes. They urged the campaign front-runner to increase taxes on the wealthy to help fund such entitlement programs as Social Security and Medicare.

Romney explained that one way to fulfill promises on entitlement programs is to “raise taxes on people,” but before he could articulate his position on not raising taxes, someone interrupted.

“Corporations!” a protester shouted, apparently urging Romney to raise taxes on corporations that have benefited from loopholes in the tax code. “Corporations!”

“Corporations are people, my friend,” Romney said.

Some people in the front of the audience shouted, “No, they’re not!”

“Of course they are,” Romney said. “Everything corporations earn ultimately goes to people. Where do you think it goes?”

The heated exchange prompted an attack from Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.​

Shouting, "So are unions!" Would have been a non sequitur because it would place them in the same company as the evil corporations the mob meant to tarnish.

The point of my comment was that a lot of people in Romney's party are anti-union, and some of them want to impose restrictions on unions that don't apply to corporations.
 
But you can't eat shells, so you actually made absolutely nothing. However, here we have more players involved, and the profits generated get represented by real resources through the spread of the promissory notes representing those profits in the abstract. Now these promises are never filled, so the people we took the resources from and gave them promises for are coming to collect, welcome illegal immigration.

Now the Chinese, they weren't like Arabs who turned around and played wealthy playboys with the money, no. They took our own capital and used it to build their infrastructure by never saving our money that we trade them for all our landfill, but spending it all over the world buying up real resources, agricultural, mineral, industrial... as well as the western industrial and infrastructure technology and its construction. Our economic prosperity has centered around building China into the power that it is now. They even took the left over cash we handed them and bought Treasury Bonds with them to support our economic and political illusion until they had all the puzzle pieces for global resource domination in their hands. The other day they got the final piece of the puzzle, years sooner than I was thinking they would, they got Reserve Currency status.

WWII is about to replay, all the lead ins are present, and this time the stakes are much higher, because all that the western economy has left to support t s the fact that every time a barrel of oil comes out of a well in any non enemy nation, the Federal Reserve gets to create those dollars to sell to anyone in the world that wants to buy that barrel of oil. They have no choice in the matter, it is a CLOSED MARKET, protected by our military forces. What is at stake right now is the further viability of the entire western capital market system when the control of the Middle East, SE Asian, and Nigerian oil fields start pumping in PetroYuan instead of PetroDollars.

We have no more industrial or agricultural strength. Most of the world won't even accept much of our export food anymore thanks to Monsanto.
 
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