Comfortable Ownership?

RyanB said:
What are your average costs per year?
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When I first started looking your question was in the front of my brain. It still is there but much less so. Most of us will admit that we spend more than we can reasonably justify. I used to drive a 20 yr old Civic to pay for it. It is a commitment. Kinda like owning A horse.

If Steiger is selling, I would give his a serious lookie.
 
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Blatham489 said:
Most any plane, wholly owned, is going to cost you at least $25-30k to own annually. It goes up from there. Search is your friend.
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Wrong + 3.

One of a billion legacy 182 owners here. We average around $135/hr for 100hrs flown. That is all in everything including a owned hangar and full engine build reserves. So I'd be planning on $15k/yr at 100hrs flown unless your hangar starts costing more than about $250/month or you also financing the purchase.
 
Isn't "budget" and "plane ownership" in the same sentence sort of an oxymoron? I could have swore that's what the POA consortium told me a year ago when I was considering buying a plane :D. But I ignored all the advice and bought one anyway... have had a Cherokee Six since November of last year. There's lotsa variables to your question. I'm charging myself a dry rate of $125/hr (flying ~125hrs/yr) = $15,625. Fuel at $6/gal and 12gph for 125hrs = $9,000. So that's roughly $25k/yr as long as I don't have any major surprises. This (~$25k) allots a little over $6k/yr for maintenance and annual along with a $35-$40/hr for prop and MOH allowances and covers insurance, subscriptions, and ramp rental (working on purchasing a hangar). I think if I were flying a 4 seater smaller slower plane, I could probably get by in the $15k-$20k range. Admittedly I'm new to the game but this is how the 1st year is looking so far.
 
RyanB said:
I know this is a loaded question and one that comes with many variables - but - in a general sense, what is the minimum amount of dough one needs to have on hand or at least bring home, to comfortably afford ownership of something like an M20C or similar performing airplane?

I realize it’s going to depend on the other liabilities you have, but let’s assume those are covered, how much left over cabbage is needed?
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If you have to ask yourself (and/or others) if you can afford to buy an airplane, you can’t afford to buy that airplane.

It will always cost more money than you thought it would to buy, insure, house, maintain and operate.

It will also cost you more time and energy than you thought it would to maintain currency and recency.

But, you’ll end up buying something anyway. Because that’s what we do.

Remember, you get what you pay for, especially with airplanes.

Best of luck.
 
Blatham489 said:
Most any plane, wholly owned, is going to cost you at least $25-30k to own annually. It goes up from there. Search is your friend.
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My Cherokee flown 200 plus hours a year all in doesn't cost that much
 
Blatham489 said:
...at least $25-30k to own annually.
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This is right. Wish I lived in those areas people have chimed in with "WRONG." Single engine, high performance, 6 seater...

Hangar: $750/month, $9k/year
Insurance: ~$4k/year (6 seats)
Annual: ~$2k
Mx: it depends...
Fuel: 14g/h, 100h/year, $7/g or ~$9k/year

So $15k/year fixed and variable gets you everything else.
 
My experience has been it’s less about the money and more about priorities. We partner in a 172 that gives us 80% of what we want to do and costs us a fixed $2600/yr + gas. We could comfortable operate something like an M20C in a sole ownership operation, too.

That would probably impact other things in our budget, specifically our current trend of every three day weekend is really a four or five day ‘weekend’ vacation. That adds up considering there’s 11/year on the fed schedule now.
 
When I first started flying I kept a spread sheet of all costs for the airplane. Was an eye opener. I now don’t follow the costs as close. I average about 8-9 thousand a year.
 
When I did an engine overhaul that ended up being essentially a complete fire-forward overhaul, I stopped adding up the costs when it passed $23,000 (not including the A&P labor) - 2002 year dollars

but, the following years, the annual expenses were quite low...
 
wheaties said:
This is right. Wish I lived in those areas people have chimed in with "WRONG." Single engine, high performance, 6 seater...

Hangar: $750/month, $9k/year
Insurance: ~$4k/year (6 seats)
Annual: ~$2k
Mx: it depends...
Fuel: 14g/h, 100h/year, $7/g or ~$9k/year

So $15k/year fixed and variable gets you everything else.
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New Jersey. Self inflicted.

You're overpaying on your hangar by $7000 a year. And you still have to live in New Jersey. It's not like thats a benefit.
 
EdFred said:
New Jersey. Self inflicted.

You're overpaying on your hangar by $7000 a year. And you still have to live in New Jersey. It's not like thats a benefit.
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and paying almost twice as much on insurance, which shouldn’t be tied to location. is it?
 
eman1200 said:
and paying almost twice as much on insurance, which shouldn’t be tied to location. is it?
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6 seats vs 4 seats, that can be a jump. Though, I'm at 1300 for HP 4 seats, so that is a bit of a premium, could be airframe and time in type. Though RyanB isn't probably looking at a 6 seater.
 
insurance is a location factor in some locales, NJ does not strike me as one of them. My native PR? Yes, to the point of not having any willing underwriters in some instances. cray cray rates, but then again, with so many cyclones and no hangar availability, plus inability to reliably/cheaply hurrivac, understandable.

But yes, the hangar premium piece of NJ is self-inflicted. In fairness, this hobby is not megalopolis-friendly. It's boondocks-leaning for affordability.
 
Jim K said:
It's at least a big as a 170, and @kaiser said he had one in there.... wait do you think he was lying to us about the extension cord?!
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I don't think so. Haven't spent much time in a 170, but my guess is the 170 has far more volume. Take the front seat out of a M20C and you might fit a tv in there, if there was a way to get it in the door - which there's not. You might be able to do it if you take out all the seats and remove the door. But then where are you going to sit? There's not much vertical in a mooney. You're not sitting in a chair, you're sitting on the floor.
 
As long as my wife never reads this: My hull value was at 180k and I'm in a light sport but for comparison

1st year (low time pilot insurance $5200 (dropped after Yr1 to $3200)
Hanger 3600/yr
Fuel for the 75 hrs I flew the first yr estimated roughly $2000-2500 gotta love Rotax for this single reason 5.5 GPH
Engine Reserve $2000
Annual $2000 (first year closer to $5k rebuilt gearbox) I bought w 700hrs on engine
General Main Items $1500 yr
So on an average year, I figure around $14,000-$15,000

I also have a newer plane, I'm told older aircraft can sometimes need more, but I would say always expect your first year to be higher to get things right!
 
The plane itself can be a significant factor rough estimates on my on my Yankee, I would say I spent $6k/yr on repairs and maintenance, $720/yr on tie down and $1000/yr on insurance. Plus fuel and oil.

I bought mine when I almost had enough to pay cash for it, then I financed it to keep the cash just in case something went wrong.

In my case, that was overkill, but I was never afraid of the cost of flying my plane (though I was concerned about it sitting a shop waiting for parts for months on end).

A significant chunk (25%) of my spending involved things that would have not been required without an electrical system, so if I could go back in time, I likely would have finished my tailwheel endorsement and bought a Champ, Chief or other classic without an engine driven electrical system instead. I would have saved a little on the initial purchase, saved on the ongoing maintenance, and spent a little more on insurance. Plus, taildraggers are cool.
 
EdFred said:
New Jersey. Self inflicted.
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yeah, yeah.

I like this state, however. Sure, the taxes are high and the cost of living is extraordinary but the school system in my town is also top 300 in the country. I'd move back to MA if I could stand the winter and had family up there.
 
Mine is about $700/mo before I start the engine for hangar, tax and insurance so that is $8400/yr. Figure $4-5k for annual and a couple oil changes, and maybe $1-2k for other maintenance.

I would say $15-18k plus flight time.
 
I was less than $10k a year with my Mooney if you don’t count avionics upgrades or engine overhaul. Even with the overhaul included I averaged <$17k/yr over 5 years if you don’t count optional upgrades.

However, I did the vast majority of the maintenance myself, pay no hangar fees, and my A&P gives heavy discounts if I treat him with a nice bottle of scotch on a regular basis.
 
When I moved my plane from New York to Michigan there was no change to my premium. Avemco told me if it had been Florida or Alaska I would have seen a big increase.
 
Maybe I look at it differently. I believe the best value in aviation is a good used bird with 400-1000 hours on a rebuilt engine. My first bird was a 68 Cherokee 140 with a fresh 2nd rebuild and new interior. I bought it with a loan, flew it for 14 years and put over 500 hours on it. I sold it in 2018 in good shape for $8000 less then I paid for it in 2004. Hangar was $220-250 per month, insurance started at $1200 per year and dropped down to about $900 near the end. My note was $340 per month. Annuals ran about $1200-1800 each year depending on repairs, one year was about $800. I did a few upgrades for less than $1200 each. It helps that I could put my hands on a couple AMUs when I needed to. My largest single repair was a cylinder failure one year.

I have used the same methodology with my Mooney. I bought it with 800 hours on its 1st rebuild. Over the last 3 years I have done several upgrades during annuals for $6-8000 each Including l the annual. I am hoping I'll be done with that for now and I expect this annual to be about $1500. Hangar is $265 per month, insurance $1700 per year, my note is about $300 but I am paying $400 to knock it down faster. I expect to sell it at about 1600 hours, or do an overhaul but I haven't decided which. That is a few years away as I have only put about 160 hours on it so far. I like this bird alot and it will likely be my last airplane. We'll see.
 
bradg33 said:
If you want aircraft ownership to be as economical as possible, things that can make a meaningful difference including: (1) find a practical and cooperative A&P/shop (if it has "jet center" in the name, you're probably f*'d), (2) learn to work on it yourself as much as possible (owner assisted annuals, do some of your own troubleshooting, etc.), (3) learn to read the maintenance manual and parts catalog, and (4) learn to parts hunt. If you read the various forums and FB, many of the biggest complaints come from folks with no mechanical inclination who just toss the keys to their A&P whenever something breaks, then complain about $20k annuals. You've got to get involved and get your hands dirty. In addition to saving money, you'll learn a LOT about your airplane in the process.
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Listen to this advice. This is the best there is.
I am in a flying club where 1 guy became an A&P, and will soon get IA signature athority. We have a great relationship with another A&P/IA on the field, and spend time at his shop talking and learning (and he will talk...)
Also we are all working twards A&P, and we are also all looking to get IR/Commercial/CFII ratings as time permits (takes time/rome wasn't built in a day...)

Also there is nothing cheaper than a club.
 
IDK how some are able to maintain lower expense numbers.

For me in a 72 Arrow II...
Hangar (heated cuz I live in Chicago): $690/month... $8280/yr
Plane (financing): $450/month... $5400/yr
Maintenance/Annual/Overhaul Fund (ignoring super expensive year 1): $6000/yr (there's always something I want to touch up)
Fuel: I fly 175h/yr, burning 10gph... assuming gas at 6$ gal (ignores recent spike): $10,500
Insurance: $2300/yr
Upgrades: Not included. But everything in aviation-land is expensive AF.

Total annual cash expense: ~$32,500 without many upgrades. So $2750 a month.
I'm sure there are ways I could save money (tie downs instead of hangar - or just a less expensive airport overall, or perhaps deferring some things on an annual, or flying less - ya right...), but none of those are going to happen.
The only thing I find painful about those expenses are that the plane itself (and my equity in it) is ironically where the least money goes...

In short, my plane expenses made my boat ownership look like a thrifty bargain hobby.
 
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Tom Wells said:
IDK how some are able to maintain lower expense numbers.

For me in a 72 Arrow II...
Hangar (heated cuz I live in Chicago): $690/month... $8280/yr
Plane (financing): $450/month... $5400/yr
Maintenance/Annual/Overhaul Fund (ignoring super expensive year 1): $6000/yr (there's always something I want to touch up)
Fuel: I fly 175h/yr, burning 10gph... assuming gas at 6$ gal (ignores recent spike): $10,500
Insurance: $2300/yr
Upgrades: Not included. But everything in aviation-land is expensive AF.

Total annual cash expense: ~$32,500 without many upgrades. So $2750 a month.
I'm sure there are ways I could save money (tie downs instead of hangar - or just a less expensive airport overall, or perhaps deferring some things on an annual, or flying less - ya right...), but none of those are going to happen.
The only thing I find painful about those expenses are that the plane itself (and my equity in it) is ironically where the least money goes...

In short, my plane expenses made my boat ownership look like a thrifty bargain hobby.
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Paid cash for plane
2200/yr for a t hangar with full concrete floor, electricity, bi fold.
1300 insurance
3000 mx/annual (though 1500 higher this year because of mag)
600 databases
8000 fuel though this year it will be a lot less due to outside issues and less flying.

I just have cash reserves for catastrophes.
 
eman1200 said:
hol up...............

if I'm reading this right, you said ONE annual cost $75k??????? man I wanna be your mechanic.
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If you got a mechanic that replaces / installs new TIO-540s cheaper, I'm all ears.
 
Country Flier said:
If you got a mechanic that replaces / installs new TIO-540s cheaper, I'm all ears.
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Ok so you’re lumping in an engine (engines?) replacement into an annual expense, got it. Because everyone replaces engines as part for their annual, that’s right. So Ryan, every annual will be 75k when you replace your engine every year. Got it?
 
Country Flier said:
If you got a mechanic that replaces / installs new TIO-540s cheaper, I'm all ears.
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Grand Rapids area has more than one - if talking 1 engine. Also Ryan isn't looking at that sort of plane.
 
Tom Wells said:
IDK how some are able to maintain lower expense numbers.

For me in a 72 Arrow II...
Hangar (heated cuz I live in Chicago): $690/month... $8280/yr
Plane (financing): $450/month... $5400/yr
Maintenance/Annual/Overhaul Fund (ignoring super expensive year 1): $6000/yr (there's always something I want to touch up)
Fuel: I fly 175h/yr, burning 10gph... assuming gas at 6$ gal (ignores recent spike): $10,500
Insurance: $2300/yr
Upgrades: Not included. But everything in aviation-land is expensive AF.

Total annual cash expense: ~$32,500 without many upgrades. So $2750 a month.
I'm sure there are ways I could save money (tie downs instead of hangar - or just a less expensive airport overall, or perhaps deferring some things on an annual, or flying less - ya right...), but none of those are going to happen.
The only thing I find painful about those expenses are that the plane itself (and my equity in it) is ironically where the least money goes...

In short, my plane expenses made my boat ownership look like a thrifty bargain hobby.
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Insurance and hangar seem to be the biggest variables, especially for we younger pilots in retracts. Also some maintain the plane with an open checkbook at an expensive shop, while others do the minimum. Some include capital costs and engine reserves, others don't. It's pretty easy to make a good guess on what a piston single is going to cost, although it's highly dependent on your area and experience.

My hangar runs 2300
Insurance (down this year because I finally have some hours) 4000
Annual 2500
Subscriptions 600

Whether I fly her or not I'm out 9400. I don't include capital cost as I own the plane and I expect to be able to recoup that money when I sell. The plane had been my best performing asset over the last two years...I should've bought more :)

Hourly costs
Fuel 15gph*$6=80
Engine reserves/mx 60

So 14000 for 100hrs, add the fixed costs and I get 23500. My 30k number is due to the fact I'm making up for some unusually high mx costs, and I want to have a budget for upgrades. I could spend 150amu in my plane easily if I did all my "wants" at one time.

If I had an older 4cyl mooney, my insurance would maybe be less, and the hourly costs would be 1/2-2/3. Call it $100/hr and you're down to 18k.
 
Some budget for repairs, others do not. You will get an idea of how things are performing in your airplane, and there is always a list of what needs to be fixed later on and you’ll have an idea of what might break next. So factor in a few thousand and tackle a little each year, if something broke then fix it, if nothing broke then address what’s next to stay on top of it.

Even if you have the money to spend, getting parts and scheduling time for a shop to address it is a challenge itself!
 
I'll give you one data point as far as "comfortable" goes... I always said I'd wait until we paid off the mortgage before I left the club and bought my own plane. So I waited and bought a well cared for (it was owned by the state of Illinois for all but the last 5 years) '78 182, with 350 SMOH. It needed new avionics, but I included that in the purchase budget. A prop overhaul has been the only extra maintenance this first year.

So, between that and having $50K in an mx fund dedicated to the airplane, I've felt very comfortable with the financial side of ownership so far.
 
My data point when I have my K35 Bo-
Insurance was ~200 a month
Hangar was ~450 a month (some years lower, some higher)
Annuals/maintenance/oil changes/tires ~9000 a year on 80 hours average
Fuel was ~12gph
Foreflight was ~200 a year
 
RyanB said:
Wait, NJ and MA practically border each other, how different of a winter do they actually get? :confused:
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Most of NJ is within 50 miles of the coast. Most of MA is more than 50 miles from the coast. That has a large impact on temps in the winter.

Also, where in each state makes a difference. While between their closest points, there's only about 75 miles separating them, from their furthest point, it's almost 300 miles.
 
RyanB said:
Wait, NJ and MA practically border each other, how different of a winter do they actually get? :confused:
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a little googling (not being snarky, just saying where this is generally found) - a few different links for MA and NJ each...

bottomline upfront: MA is a little colder and gets more snow than NJ.

Massachusetts

Unsurprisingly, the eighth-snowiest state in the U.S. is the fourth New England state: Massachusetts. On average, Massachusetts receives 51.05 inches of snow per year. Massachusetts averages about five snow events each winter month, with its northeastern and central parts getting hit the hardest.

Average Temperatures for Boston
Month Low High
Jan 22.1°F 36.5°F
Feb 24.2°F 38.7°F
Mar 31.5°F 46.3°F
Apr 40.5°F 56.1°F


Jersey City

Average Jan Dec
High 40°F 45°F
Temp. 33°F 38°F
Low 28°F 33°F


How much snow does New Jersey get annually?
Annual snowfall averages 40 to 50 inches in the northern zone as compared with an average of 10-15 inches in the extreme south. A storm track extending from the heart of the Mississippi Valley, over the Great Lakes, and along the St. Lawrence Valley is a major source of precipitation for this region.
 
Bob Noel said:
a little googling (not being snarky, just saying where this is generally found) - a few different links for MA and NJ each...

bottomline upfront: MA is a little colder and gets more snow than NJ.

Massachusetts

Unsurprisingly, the eighth-snowiest state in the U.S. is the fourth New England state: Massachusetts. On average, Massachusetts receives 51.05 inches of snow per year. Massachusetts averages about five snow events each winter month, with its northeastern and central parts getting hit the hardest.

Average Temperatures for Boston
Month Low High
Jan 22.1°F 36.5°F
Feb 24.2°F 38.7°F
Mar 31.5°F 46.3°F
Apr 40.5°F 56.1°F


Jersey City

Average Jan Dec
High 40°F 45°F
Temp. 33°F 38°F
Low 28°F 33°F


How much snow does New Jersey get annually?
Annual snowfall averages 40 to 50 inches in the northern zone as compared with an average of 10-15 inches in the extreme south. A storm track extending from the heart of the Mississippi Valley, over the Great Lakes, and along the St. Lawrence Valley is a major source of precipitation for this region.
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As Michigan extends quite a bit N/S and has lake effect and non lake effect areas, I looked up what we get to experience:

Adrian (SE) - 26" (non LE)
Grand Rapids (W) - 78" (LE)
Traverse City (NW Lower) - 101" (LE)
Escanaba (Mid Upper) - 47" (non LE)
Ironwood - (W Upper) 186" (LE)
 
Blatham489 said:
Most any plane, wholly owned, is going to cost you at least $25-30k to own annually. It goes up from there. Search is your friend.
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Like said there is no wrong number here, IMO.
So many variables.
I fly a 172, so pretty cheap plane to own, right?
Doesn't it depend on how much you fly it?
I spend average $1000. a month on fuel, so that is approx $12000. a year on fuel alone. This was when fuel was 5 bucks a gallon.
Add up all the rest and it is a easy 18-20K a year for me.
That is not counting the 58K panel upgrade as soon as I bought the plane.
30K engine install a couple years later.
Lots of upgrades and maintenance since I owned it. Fly it a lot and then there is more maintenance cost also.
Luckily I do all the work myself, it would be much higher if I was paying a mechanic to do it all for me.

I don't want to know what I have spent on it since 2018...But last time I checked I am not "under water" yet on it. That is the amazing part about 172s here lately.
 
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