Comfortable Ownership?

@RyanB - you are living the bachelor dream! You can afford an airplane.

The one thing I never considered until looking seriously this year (because renting was very restrictive with my schedule) - you'll usually get most of your initial investment back (maybe less if buying at the peak - but usually NOT a goose egg). That totally changed he math for me.

Now - how long will it take to realize that cash? That's the unknown.

The most eye opening data in this thread is how people have this much time to fly and maintain a plane, while earning enough to afford it. I need a new job!!!

I don't have the guilt free time to fly this much. Maybe when the kids are older.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@RyanB - you are living the bachelor dream! You can afford an airplane.

The one thing I never considered until looking seriously this year (because renting was very restrictive with my schedule) - you'll usually get most of your initial investment back (maybe less if buying at the peak - but usually NOT a goose egg). That totally changed he math for me.

Now - how long will it take to realize that cash? That's the unknown.

The most eye opening data in this thread is how people have this much time to fly and maintain a plane, while earning enough to afford it. I need a new job!!!

I don't have the guilt free time to fly this much. Maybe when the kids are older.
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I second that motion for @RyanB . As a fellow bachelor I can confirm this is a good time to own a plane if the budget allows it at all :).
Personally, I'll happily live in a shed and eat ramen noodles if it means I can have my plane. I imagine once a family comes along they might not share the same level of enthusiasm and be willing to make the same sacrifices... Carpe Diem.
 
That brings me to my next question, wife and kids vs. bachelor life and owning an airplane? Can’t have your cake and eat it too, right? ;)
 
eman1200 said:
Ok so you’re lumping in an engine (engines?) replacement into an annual expense, got it. Because everyone replaces engines as part for their annual, that’s right. So Ryan, every annual will be 75k when you replace your engine every year. Got it?
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You asked why I had a $75000 annual...but...You don't include engine costs in your yearly costs? Then why include oil, gas, hangar rent, etc? Oh, so that's how you guys have such low expenses...ok, then in that case, my M20R only costs $39.95 a year....no wait, it actually MAKES me $39.95 a year.
 
Country Flier said:
You don't include engine costs in your yearly costs? Then why include oil, gas, hangar rent, etc? Oh, so that's how you guys have such low expenses...ok, then in that case, my M20R only costs $39.95 a year.
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of course, an HOURLY rate based on TBO time. not the full engine rebuild costs every single year.
 
eman1200 said:
of course, an HOURLY rate based on TBO time. not the full engine rebuild costs every single year.
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I (you) need some help with my (your) reading comprehension...go back up, quote me, and highlight where I said every year my annual was $75000? Or even more than one annual...I must have typed that in my sleep...
 
Country Flier said:
I (you) need some help with my (your) reading comprehension...go back up, quote me, and highlight where I said every year my annual was $75000? Or even more than one annual...I must have typed that in my sleep...
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the guy is asking for typical yearly ownership costs. you gave some extreme high end # of when you had to overhaul engines he wasn't even asking about. you gave worthless information that I was simply pointing out how worthless it was. people have already mentioned he needs to budget for an engine overhaul. you pointing out your extreme example doesn't help him one bit.
 
eman1200 said:
the guy is asking for typical yearly ownership costs. you gave some extreme high end # of when you had to overhaul engines he wasn't even asking about. you gave worthless information that I was simply pointing out how worthless it was. people have already mentioned he needs to budget for an engine overhaul. you pointing out your extreme example doesn't help him one bit.
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Guess its just MY example that's extreme. But its my example, and I have no other, so...
But if you've gone 10 years, and never put in an engine, good for you, but that expense is looming, you just haven't spent it yet. So to say, "I only spend $15k a year" only tells what you've spent, not the cost.
 
Country Flier said:
Guess its just MY example that's extreme. But its my example, and I have no other, so...
But if you've gone 10 years, and never put in an engine, good for you, but that expense is looming, you just haven't spent it yet. So to say, "I only spend $15k a year" only tells what you've spent, not the cost.
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I gave a number for the same aircraft both with and without engine overhaul. You’re doing something wrong if you pay $75k to overhaul a m20c engine.
 
Country Flier said:
Guess its just MY example that's extreme. But its my example, and I have no other, so...
But if you've gone 10 years, and never put in an engine, good for you, but that expense is looming, you just haven't spent it yet. So to say, "I only spend $15k a year" only tells what you've spent, not the cost.
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if you've BUDGETED for it, as in actually put money aside per hour for the overhaul, then you HAVE built that cost into it. when it comes time for the overhaul, you have that money aside, you don't have to pay it again.
 
Country Flier said:
You asked why I had a $75000 annual...but...You don't include engine costs in your yearly costs? Then why include oil, gas, hangar rent, etc? Oh, so that's how you guys have such low expenses...ok, then in that case, my M20R only costs $39.95 a year....no wait, it actually MAKES me $39.95 a year.
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An O-360-A1D field overhaul is 20 grand. This thread has turned into a roller coaster -- are we no longer talking about OP's scenario?

Frankly I'm not sure why we're throwing in these $800/mo Hangar Taj Mahals either since they're not needed for operation.
 
schmookeeg said:
An O-360-A1D field overhaul is 20 grand. This thread has turned into a roller coaster -- are we no longer talking about OP's scenario?

Frankly I'm not sure why we're throwing in these $800/mo Hangar Taj Mahals either since they're not needed for operation.
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or even things like garmin pilot/FF, which 1) you don't need and 2) you're probably paying for already if you're a renter and wouldn't be an additional expense if u bought.
 
schmookeeg said:
An O-360-A1D field overhaul is 20 grand. This thread has turned into a roller coaster -- are we no longer talking about OP's scenario?

Frankly I'm not sure why we're throwing in these $800/mo Hangar Taj Mahals either since they're not needed for operation.
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Taj Mahals??? Hangar rents are location-dependent...and I'd be willing to bet my $300 hangar in the country is better than that $800 "Taj Mahal". Its something most people have zero control over.
 
Country Flier said:
Taj Mahals??? Hangar rents are location-dependent...and I'd be willing to bet my $300 hangar in the country is better than that $800 "Taj Mahal". Its something most people have zero control over.
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Tiedowns are a thing, and suffer less regional variation IME.

Anyway you made me re-read the scenario. "minimum amount of dough one needs to have on hand -- to run a M20C or similar" is the question at hand.
 
RyanB said:
That brings me to my next question, wife and kids vs. bachelor life and owning an airplane? Can’t have your cake and eat it too, right? ;)
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That depends whom you marry. I woman I was seeing actually got angry at me for selling my plane. I don't think it contributed to the breakup, but I'm not the most objective source.
 
schmookeeg said:
Tiedowns are a thing, and suffer less regional variation IME.

Anyway you made me re-read the scenario. "minimum amount of dough one needs to have on hand -- to run a M20C or similar" is the question at hand.
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Ah, then whenever someone wants to know “how cheap”, my advice is simple…you can’t afford it.
 
Country Flier said:
Ah, then whenever someone wants to know “how cheap”, my advice is simple…you can’t afford it.
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This is terrible advice. It is financially responsible to understand the cost of something before committing to it. In addition, understanding the edge cases, and the risks involved in the edge cases helps to make informed choices about how to best manage the situation.
 
While I don't own a plane yet so can't contribute actual costs, I have gone throung this exercise recently. I actually found it surprisingly easy to get some real potential cost info. AOPA will quickly give you actual quotes on insurance and loans based on your actual information. Just find a plane that is close to what you are looking at and give them the N number.
Call around to the local fields you would want a hangar and see about their availability and cost. Fuel per flight hour is pretty easy to look up. The hardest variables are maintenance and annuals but at least you are guessing only a small portion of the overall cost at that point. Upgrades are something that you will have a lot of control over and will vary per person.

For me on the LSAs I'm looking at I come in a hair under $10,000/year assuming 100 hours and excluding the purchase or loan.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
The most eye opening data in this thread is how people have this much time to fly and maintain a plane, while earning enough to afford it. I need a new job!!!

I don't have the guilt free time to fly this much. Maybe when the kids are older.
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I'll tell my secret for finding the time...no kids! :D
 
@Jim K im envious whenever I see your posts and pics. I think you would accept your situation is the exception?

You run your own business/farm. You are a doer. My hunch is your wife loves for you to lead (most women actually do) and doesn't fight you on it (I don't think this is true of most).

Envious! Enjoy the blue skies with your crew.

ETA: she's likely used to you investing $$$ in equipment. My wife freaks out. That money is lost and only benefits me (she assumes sunk costs / lost costs with no exit value).
 
Here is my spread sheet on what a future plane would cost me in these parts.
  • Using Tie Down numbers because there are no hangers to be had
  • Using 1000 hours until Overhaul because I assume the plane I buy will have 1000 hours on it already.

upload_2022-9-6_15-34-50.png
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Jim K im envious whenever I see your posts and pics. I think you would accept your situation is the exception?

You run your own business/farm. You are a doer. My hunch is your wife loves for you to lead (most women actually do) and doesn't fight you on it (I don't think this is true of most).

Envious! Enjoy the blue skies with your crew.
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I'll admit that I have a massive advantage with regards to making my own schedule during the summer and winter. This makes things like flying for proficiency and IFR currency much easier. That said planning ahead is very hard. I don't know if I'll make fly ins until a few days before, which made it VERY hard to schedule in a club environment. Having my own plane means that if I wake up and want to go flying, I can. I often wish I had a 9-5 job so I could plan things ahead. We planned our big western trip for mid June....by the first week of June I was convinced we'd have to cancel; a couple weeks of LONG days and I got things to a place I could leave. I'm still trying to catch up.

WRT Mrs. K, I'll tell you....she was very resentful when I first learned to fly. Our youngest was a newborn, and she was pretty angry that I was going flying three days a week while she was changing diapers hourly. Once I finally got my ticket, I took her on a couple date weekends...time away with no kids, which is what she desperately wants. Our first trip was to Louisville, and we had one of the most memorable trips of our marriage. That turned the page for her. She could SEE what aviation could do for HER. Not long after we took our two oldest to Florida, and again had an amazing time that wouldn't have been possible without GA. We got stuck by IMC on the way home, and starting my instrument was her suggestion....

Resistance to buying the Lance was minimal...once she was convinced I wasn't ruining our financial future for a toy, she was on board. I had already shown her what was possible. My advice to anyone with a hesitant spouse is to take them on a trip, just the two of you. Somewhere commercial aviation doesn't reach. Take an Uber. Stay in a nice hotel...something historic and beautiful. Show them what's possible when you don't have to arrive two hours early for your pat-down.
 
WDD said:
Here is my spread sheet on what a future plane would cost me in these parts.

Using Tie Down numbers because there are no hangers to be had
Using 1000 hours until Overhaul because I assume the plane I buy will have 1000 hours on it already.

View attachment 110321
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A couple suggestions:
  • Assuming the engine has 1000 hours at the time you buy the plane, shove $20k into the reserves right away and then pay $20/hr for the overhaul fund. That way if the engine takes a lunch 10 hours after you buy, you don't have to recalculate the overhaul fund.
  • Cost of fuel is highly variable. Could come down from $8/gal, could stay same, could go up. I'd try to use a historical rolling average.
 
@WDD i was working with a group to set up a partnership to buy a Skylane this year. Never really came together but . . .

One point of diversion was OH fund. Part of the group wanted to contribute cash with the buy-in to fund the OH fund. A few wanted no initial reserve and a higher hourly and 1 wanted to just finance the OH with plane equity when the time comes.

Even though it didn't work out, it was fun to learn different views on how to make a purchase like that work.

Some wanted fuel injected and glass. Many just wanted good airframe and engine and steam gauges. Most were actually ok with mid to late time engine so we could control the OH which, split 5-ways, wasn't as daunting.

1 airline guy had a Lake house 4-hrs by car and 1 by Skylane. He wanted the plane every other or 3rd weekend or something and was going to buy 2-shares for it (he'd own 2/6 and the other 4 guys owned 4/6 but then he'd get more priority weeks).

I can't fly on weekends anyway because that's my family time so that worked for me but not the other 3.

Still interesting to hash that stuff out especially when prices skyrocketed and then it was just fun for me (I knew it wouldn't happen).

ETA: airline guy bought a Bonanza and hangars it at PWK. Turns out he wasn't that interested in sharing to begin with.
 
mandm said:
How many do you have?
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Zero. I have lost many friends and relatives to the permanent zombie-state that is childrearing, and I mourn them daily. Often while out flying my plane in a well-rested fashion. I don't need any little narcissists running around trashing my house while wearing my face and eating my food.

(I write this snark while in Oregon visiting my nephew, though, who I can wind up, sugar up, and dump back on my sister while I jet back home -- lil nephew eats her joy, not mine :D -- although the 3 year old miscreant has a bad habit of waking me up at 6am, far, far before my proper time to rise)
 
Kids are awesome and a true blessing. I wish we had alot more when we were young.

Back to OP, my engine rebuilder just called and said crank is no good. There goes another 10amu.
 
texasclouds said:
Kids are awesome and a true blessing. I wish we had alot more when we were young.

Back to OP, my engine rebuilder just called and said crank is no good. There goes another 10amu.
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I was going to give a thumbs up after reading about the blessing kids are - then I read about your crank.

So both up and down?
 
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