Cleared to a fix…now what?

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flybill

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Flybill
So I get cleared to a fix on an approach. “N12345 proceed direct LIGMA, descend maintain 2,000.” So I descend and maintain 2,000 and fly to the fix. As I approach the fix the controller is busy and forgets about me. No further clearance has been given. Beyond querying the controller, what should a pilot do? Proceed to the next fix on the approach? Keep flying on the current heading through the approach? Enter a hold?
 
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Was LIGMA on your previously cleared route?
 
LIGMA was not in the original clearance.
 
You should not get a clearance to a fix without an expected further clearance time. ASK.
 
flybill said:
So I get cleared to a fix on an approach. “N12345 proceed direct LIGMA, descend maintain 2,000.” So I descend and maintain 2,000 and fly to the fix. As I approach the fix the controller is busy and forgets about me. No further clearance has been given. Beyond querying the controller, what should a pilot do? Proceed to the next fix on the approach? Keep flying on the current heading through the approach? Enter a hold?
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Here's my answer...
 
flybill said:
LIGMA was not in the original clearance.
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The controller left out any connection to the previously cleared route. You should clarify by asking what to do next. Most likely the controller will tell you to expect a particular approach.
 
PastZTL said:
The controller left out any connection to the previously cleared route. You should clarify by asking what to do next. Most likely the controller will tell you to expect a particular approach.
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Presumably, he had a route cleared that took him to the airport. It was also quite possible he was told to expect a particular approach at some point prior to this.
 
flyingron said:
Presumably, he had a route cleared that took him to the airport. It was also quite possible he was told to expect a particular approach at some point prior to this.
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Yeah. Many posts of this type lack context but the first line was "So I get cleared to a fix on an approach." As you say, presumably, it was the approach to the destination with an expectation of flying it.
 
I can’t believe there’s a fix called LIGMA.
 
LIGMA was made up.

The name of the fix was irrelevant, but meant to give a laugh. The main point of the question was what do you do when directed to a fix on an approach, but not given further clearance and not cleared for the approach. And the radio is too busy to query ATC? You’re rapidly approaching the fix…and kind of left hanging by ATC. What should a pilot do?
 
LIGMA can be found on SkyVector ... pretty certain it's not one I will ever fly ...
 
flybill said:
So I get cleared to a fix on an approach. “N12345 proceed direct LIGMA, descend maintain 2,000.” So I descend and maintain 2,000 and fly to the fix. As I approach the fix the controller is busy and forgets about me.
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That isn't something that should happen. A controller working an approach is scanning from the approach out and should see you approaching the final in time to give you further instructions.

If you were on a radar vector you remain on the heading and continue through the final approach course. In this case, though, you're not on a vector.

A busy frequency is not lost comm. The controller should give you further instructions before you reach the fix. If there's a break, get in with something short like, "[callsign], request approach clearance". There is no book answer for this situation. The controller didn't send you direct to the fix so that he could take you somewhere else off of the approach so, what I'd do, is track the final approach course inbound and attempt the get an approach clearance before a descent would be required.

In general, be aware of the bigger picture of the situation and don't do anything that would break the controller's overall plan.

Pinecone said:
You should not get a clearance to a fix without an expected further clearance time. ASK.
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"Proceed direct [fix]" does not establish a new clearance limit. The phraseology for that would be something like, "Cleared to [fix] via direct" and should be followed by "expect no delay" or an EFC time.
 
This almost happened to me on one of my IR cross country flights. He gave me the IAF for the approach but hadn't cleared me for the approach. I was about at the fix and about to key the mic when he cleared me.

Haven't had that situation since. I'm pretty sure my CFII would've told me to proceed on the approach but we ended up not getting to that point.
 
The issue is, you could lose comms. So then what?

If they clear you to a fix that is not on your flight plan, they NEED to you what to do and when you may do it.

If that fix is an IAF, you are likely to get that approach. But without a defined expect further clearance time, WHEN do you start the approach.

So the bottom line is ASK. While you can.
 
Pinecone said:
The issue is, you could lose comms. So then what?

If they clear you to a fix that is not on your flight plan, they NEED to you what to do and when you may do it.
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Approach typically tells you what approach to expect on initial contact. In this example, they later clear you direct to a fix on that approach. They have you sequenced between other aircraft for the same approach.

What then? Fly the approach. Anything else will disrupt the flow of traffic that has already been established and will not be what the controller wanted nor expected.
 
Pinecone said:
You should not get a clearance to a fix without an expected further clearance time. ASK.
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We get box vectors often in ZDC prior to an approach clearance without an efc time. More than once I've thought to myself going NORDO now would be a problem, because sometimes you could be headed for P40 or other restricted airspace. I know, under ifr, but it still makes me a tetch nervy.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
We get box vectors often in ZDC prior to an approach clearance without an efc time. More than once I've thought to myself going NORDO now would be a problem, because sometimes you could be headed for P40 or other restricted airspace. I know, under ifr, but it still makes me a tetch nervy.
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The clearance limit is still the airport. You fly the approach until you get to the airport (land) and stop. That's the reg.

Now for practical matters. There's two situations. EITHER they have terminal radar there so they can watch you all the way in and keep you away from others *OR* it's a one-at-a-time operation and they'll not put you on the approach if someone else is still on it somewhere. In the latter case, they'll likely have to hold you or otherwise give you the EFC.
 
Clip4 said:
Is direct present location to a fix a clearance limit?
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No. A clearance limit is established with the phraseology of, "Cleared to [clearance limit] via [routing]".

Most of the time we hear that as "Cleared to the [airport name] airport via [routing]"

If you are given direct to a fix that isn't in your flight plan, ask for continued routing to your clearance limit.
 
flyingron said:
The clearance limit is still the airport. You fly the approach until you get to the airport (land) and stop. That's the reg.

Now for practical matters. There's two situations. EITHER they have terminal radar there so they can watch you all the way in and keep you away from others *OR* it's a one-at-a-time operation and they'll not put you on the approach if someone else is still on it somewhere. In the latter case, they'll likely have to hold you or otherwise give you the EFC.
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Ok, you are with the approach controller, but have not yet been cleared for the approach. Uncontrolled airport. You receive vectors for spacing that direct you away from the IAF. After the second vector, which heads you toward a restricted area, and further from the IAf you go NORDO. How long do you wait before you turn toward the IAF and shoot the approach? If you wait too long, you bust the restricted area. Not long enough, you risk creating a conflict. What's s the choice?
 
You're changing the scenario.

They aren't vectoring you without radar contact however. You go to the IAF and start the approach unless they've given you some limitation. What else would you do?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Ok, you are with the approach controller, but have not yet been cleared for the approach. Uncontrolled airport. You receive vectors for spacing that direct you away from the IAF. After the second vector, which heads you toward a restricted area, and further from the IAf you go NORDO. How long do you wait before you turn toward the IAF and shoot the approach? If you wait too long, you bust the restricted area. Not long enough, you risk creating a conflict. What's s the choice?
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If you are being vectored, then you are on radar. Squawk 7600, turn before penetrating the restricted area, go direct to the IAF and fly the approach.
 
flyingron said:
You're changing the scenario.

They aren't vectoring you without radar contact however. You go to the IAF and start the approach unless they've given you some limitation. What else would you do?
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Agreed. But I'm just pointing out the increased uncertainty to the pilot from having been given box vectors of indeterminate length vs. a hold with an efc time. In the hold you know definitively when to turn inbound.
 
91.185 doesn't say continue on a vector into oblivion, it says go from the point of communication loss to where they said they were vectoring you for, or what you were told to expect (like Expect the RNAV 12 Approach), or by your planned route. Since you don't have a clearance limit short of your destination, I'd just go to the IAF, fly the approach, and land.
 
flybill said:
So I get cleared to a fix on an approach. “N12345 proceed direct LIGMA, descend maintain 2,000.”
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Let's focus on the specifics. "On an approach" - Let's assume it's an IAF. Likely have already gotten the ATIS, or ASOS and have an idea of which approach, or ATC gave an "Expect RNAV XX". Descend and Maintain 2000 seems like they're setting you up to join. Assuming it's an IAF or other fix on an approach, if you can't get through, would you not just continue the approach?

For the OP, I would have said 1 mile (or whatever) from LIGMA, cleared for the approach?
 
First callup with approach, they normally will tell you what approach to expect, that’s the “Expected”.
(Or, the ATIS says runway in use; one might argue that constitutes “expected”.)

Another important tip someone gave me is, atc is that flowing everyone onto one runway, at most airports. Usually, you are going to be doing the same. So if in doubt (and you cant get an answer) avoid deviating from his predictable plan.
 
flybill said:
the controller is busy and forgets about me. No further clearance has been given. Beyond querying the controller, what should a pilot do?
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So you are not lost coms...Query ATC and speak up to clarify IS the only thing to do. There are countless procedures on what to do in a coms failure but fear of keying up mic is not one of those taught by any CFIs or in the AIM otherwise not sure how one would have gotten their IFR ticket in the first place...

And a busy frequency is not lost coms.

While neither of the above warrant deviation from a clearance, or warrant flying something else, the next step is to fly expected route. If that is even a question, there would have been a massive failure in training.

This is where some pilots on a busy frequency need to learn how to make the call "Need Clearance 5-9-8" and not "Nor---Cal Approach, uhhh...I have a fix and 2miles out....uhhh...need to know what to do next...would like RNVV...uhhhhh....7 if available, and we have information Kilo, field in sight, any traffic in pattern please advise...Skylane 123-----5-9-8....derp"
 
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I have heard people describe poking IDENT as a way of raising their hand and waiting for teacher to call on them.

I've come close in NorCal but luckily haven't needed to test that oddball procedure. It does seem better than just assuming incorrectly. You can plausibly deny intending to hit ident a lot easier than you can explain away an invented vector that you just cruised along. :D

But yeah, AVEF should be at top of mind as that fix approaches.
 
...and remember kids..."NorCal, 5-9-8, Field in sight"...or "[X] miles from [FIX}" is the polite "HEY DUMBARSE, did you forget about me? Need handoff or further instructions" call to make to ATC.
 
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