Cleared for takeoff at towered airport, when to turn on course?

trenton

trenton

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Trenton
I fly out of KPAE which has parallel runways (9000' 16R and 3000' 16L). Here's how it went:

Me: Paine Tower, Cessna 122MJ, full length 16L, request departure, VFR, on course 310.

Tower: Cessna 122MJ, cleared for takeoff, 16L.

There was no other traffic in the pattern, but KPAE has east and west tower frequencies, so you're never certain what's out there. I chose to fly left traffic (as is customary for 16L), continued to climb in the pattern, got to abeam 16R, at which point I was at about 2200', and turned onto 310.

This is my home field, so this all felt safe, but what is the general rule? I've heard things as simple as "if you request it and the tower doesn't give you any restrictions, do it however you like" But, taking off, then turning right and cutting across the departure end of 16R seems unexpected.

Thoughts?
 
My tower experience: "Cleared for takeoff Rxx. Left (or right) turnout approved."

I'm not sure if I've ever not gotten a direction to turn except when departing rwy heading.
 
My experience similar to Matthew's. If I have neglected to tell them what my direction of departure is, they will ask and approve the appropriate turn. If lots of traffic in the pattern, I might be told runway heading until I am above TPA and then instructed to turn.

If IFR, I frequently get an initial heading to tipirn too after passing the far end of the runway. This is designed to not only keep me clear of pattern traffic, but get me into the system flow that Departure is expecting from that airport.

Best advice here is of uncertain, just ask.
 
trenton said:
I fly out of KPAE which has parallel runways (9000' 16R and 3000' 16L). Here's how it went:

Me: Paine Tower, Cessna 122MJ, full length 16L, request departure, VFR, on course 310.

Tower: Cessna 122MJ, cleared for takeoff, 16L.

There was no other traffic in the pattern, but KPAE has east and west tower frequencies, so you're never certain what's out there. I chose to fly left traffic (as is customary for 16L), continued to climb in the pattern, got to abeam 16R, at which point I was at about 2200', and turned onto 310.

This is my home field, so this all felt safe, but what is the general rule? I've heard things as simple as "if you request it and the tower doesn't give you any restrictions, do it however you like" But, taking off, then turning right and cutting across the departure end of 16R seems unexpected.

Thoughts?
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my experience: cleared for take off ( right or left ) turn or (straight out) approved. i don't make turn until i've cleared the end of the runway and have achieved 500' agl.
 
jordane93 said:
What does the AIM recommend?
Click to expand...

This seems directly applicable

Fig 4-3-3 Traffic Pattern Operations Parallel Runways

(6) If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or
exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left−hand
traffic pattern; to the right when in a right−hand traffic
pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after
reaching pattern altitude.​

So, given the clearance I received, I should have flown the departure leg until reaching TPA, then turned on the 45 (flying 115), then turn northwesterly, once I knew my course wouldn't cause any problems for arriving traffic. The long way around, indeed.

Next time, departing 16L, I'll request a left downwind or a right crosswind departure. That will get me pointed in the right direction faster than what's recommended by the AIM (if I'm reading it correctly.0

Thanks for prompting me to go back to the book jordane.
 
trenton said:
This seems directly applicable

Fig 4-3-3 Traffic Pattern Operations Parallel Runways

(6) If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or
exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left−hand
traffic pattern; to the right when in a right−hand traffic
pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after
reaching pattern altitude.​

So, given the clearance I received, I should have flown the departure leg until reaching TPA, then turned on the 45 (flying 115), then turn northwesterly, once I knew my course wouldn't cause any problems for arriving traffic. The long way around, indeed.

Next time, departing 16L, I'll request a left downwind or a right crosswind departure. That will get me pointed in the right direction faster than what's recommended by the AIM (if I'm reading it correctly.0

Thanks for prompting me to go back to the book jordane.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup:
 
trenton said:
Paine Tower, Cessna 122MJ, full length 16L, request departure, VFR, on course 310.
Click to expand...

You fly runway heading in the absence of vectors or other instruction. If you get a heading on the ground you are expected to clear the end of the runway and turn to that heading. You fly the last heading assigned and do not deviate unless given a new heading or turn instruction.
 
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What do the controllers here say?
Our Delta tower ALWAYS gives departure instructions (for airplanes not staying in the pattern), usually "proceed on course", "left/right turn on course approved" or a limitation "fly rwy heading" or "turn right hdg 240".
So from controllers' perspective, what are they trained to give in takeoff clearance?
 
If the controller cares what you do after takeoff he'll give you restrictions. If he doesn't give any restrictions then do something reasonably predictable based on what you originally asked for.
 
Maybe it's worth saying out loud that at least in VFR one should ever assume to make any maneuver other than to fly straight out if no vector or turn permission is given. And one should especially not fly across a parallel runways departure course or turn on a downwind and turn across another runways approach course without specific clearance or instruction from ATC.
 
citizen5000 said:
Maybe it's worth saying out loud that at least in VFR one should ever assume to make any maneuver other than to fly straight out if no vector or turn permission is given. And one should especially not fly across a parallel runways departure course or turn on a downwind and turn across another runways approach course without specific clearance or instruction from ATC.
Click to expand...

If you're IFR, you WILL have an instruction in your clearance.

You are generally expected to climb to 400 AGL first.

Examples:
PAO: After departure, turn right heading 060 within 1 mile
RHV: After departure, turn left heading 270
SQL: Fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120 within two miles of the airport .... Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1100 until crossing the oakland 165 radial. [I wish I was kidding]
 
AIM Figure 4-3-3, Traffic Pattern Operations Parallel Runways

1. Enter pattern in level flight, abeam the midpoint of the runway, at pattern altitude. (1,000’ AGL is recommended pattern altitude unless established otherwise. . .)
2. Maintain pattern altitude until abeam approach end of the landing runway on downwind leg.
3. Complete turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the runway.
4. Continue straight ahead until beyond departure end of runway.
5. If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.
6. If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left−hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right−hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.
7. Do not overshoot final or continue on a track which will penetrate the final approach of the parallel runway.
8. Do not continue on a track which will penetrate the departure path of the parallel runway.
Click to expand...
 
citizen5000 said:
You fly runway heading in the absence of vectors or other instruction. If you get a heading on the ground you are expected to clear the end of the runway and turn to that heading. You fly the last heading assigned and do not deviate unless given a new heading or turn instruction.
Click to expand...

Or you exit the tower's airspace.
 
What about the people I see who turn on course as soon as their wheels leave the ground?
 
Clark1961 said:
What about them?
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I'm just pointing out the fact that a lot of people it seem to just do what ever to get on their way quicker, not saying anything bad about them it's there choice.
 
Rebel Lord said:
I'm just pointing out the fact that a lot of people it seem to just do what ever to get on their way quicker, not saying anything bad about them it's there choice.
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At towered fields? I've seen crop dusters do it but I just assumed that was their pattern altitude.
 
trenton said:
I fly out of KPAE which has parallel runways (9000' 16R and 3000' 16L). Here's how it went:

Me: Paine Tower, Cessna 122MJ, full length 16L, request departure, VFR, on course 310.

Tower: Cessna 122MJ, cleared for takeoff, 16L.

There was no other traffic in the pattern, but KPAE has east and west tower frequencies, so you're never certain what's out there. I chose to fly left traffic (as is customary for 16L), continued to climb in the pattern, got to abeam 16R, at which point I was at about 2200', and turned onto 310.

This is my home field, so this all felt safe, but what is the general rule? I've heard things as simple as "if you request it and the tower doesn't give you any restrictions, do it however you like" But, taking off, then turning right and cutting across the departure end of 16R seems unexpected.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
You told them your direction of departure, you chose a reasonable route for getting on that course, and they didn't complain. Sounds good to me.

If you're in doubt about whether what you're planning to do is acceptable to ATC, you can always ask. For example, if I planned to make a right turnout from the left runway, I would request that before takeoff.
 
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Rebel Lord said:
Ya at my local class D
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It's not common around here unless on course heading is aligned with the runway. :)

Edit: I was once told to: "turn on course as soon as it is safe" by the tower controller. I think their idea of safe and my idea had just a little distance between them and they have never issued the instruction since then. Hey, I always had runway, taxiway, or plowed field under me or ahead of me within gliding range.
 
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I'm not instrument rated, and fly out of a Class D airport. Holding short of Runway 17 for takeoff a few days ago, I received by 'cleared for takeoff' instruction for the first time WITHOUT an explicit left/right turnout instruction for my on course heading of 030. In 2+ years of flying out of that airport, I don't think I've ever not been given an instruction on that, so it immediately stuck out. I responded back 'R 17, cleared for takeoff, will make left turnout on course, [callsign]', then took the runway.

I was also trained to make the on course turn after 700 ft AGL and on the odd occasion the tower needs me to do something different, they instruct me accordingly.
 
Given the course, your selection of runway and turns make sense. So, you did good there.

All in all, what you requested is legitimate. I would change the phraseology a bit, though: "request take-off, left turn, heading 310". Sounds like tower understood you, though, so no problems. BUT... doesn't sound like it is what you did!

trenton said:
Next time, departing 16L, I'll request a left downwind or a right crosswind departure. That will get me pointed in the right direction faster than what's recommended by the AIM
Click to expand...

THIS is what it sounds like you actually flew! It does make the most sense in GA flying, however. I can't think of any situation where a "pattern" departure (crosswind, downwind, straight-out) can't work.
 
MAKG1 said:
If you're IFR, you WILL have an instruction in your clearance.
Click to expand...
That's true at a lot of airports but it is not universally true. There are airports where an IFR will get nothing more than "Cleared for Takeoff" and will be expected to fly his IFR clearance.

There was a thread some years ago on the Red Board where an IFR Bonanza departure from GCN (Grand Canyon) and flew straight out through the flight-free zone in the SFAR while waiting for some additional ATC instructions other than the "Cleared as filed..." he had received prior to taxi.
 
noahfong said:
THIS is what it sounds like you actually flew! It does make the most sense in GA flying, however. I can't think of any situation where a "pattern" departure (crosswind, downwind, straight-out) can't work.
Click to expand...

Yes, for better or worse, it's what I flew and it was the desire I was trying to communicate to the tower.... but probably not exactly what they expected (see AIM 4-3-3).
 
BigBadLou said:
What do the controllers here say?
Our Delta tower ALWAYS gives departure instructions (for airplanes not staying in the pattern), usually "proceed on course", "left/right turn on course approved" or a limitation "fly rwy heading" or "turn right hdg 240".
So from controllers' perspective, what are they trained to give in takeoff clearance?
Click to expand...


When I clear you for takeoff, I always say "on course approved". Once speed and altitude permit, you can make your turn. In my experience, that usually means right around the departure end of the runway. If l need you to fly runway heading so I can get you clear of my pattern, then I'll tell you with the clearance, then turn you when you're clear :).
 
ATC_av8er said:
When I clear you for takeoff, I always say "on course approved". Once speed and altitude permit, you can make your turn. In my experience, that usually means right around the departure end of the runway. If l need you to fly runway heading so I can get you clear of my pattern, then I'll tell you with the clearance, then turn you when you're clear :).
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Thank you, sir.
Are you required to do so by regulations or just a personal preference?
What is the procedure taught to class D controllers? (is what I'm after)
 
what's the ODP say? Sure, you might be VFR - but. . . .
 
BigBadLou said:
Thank you, sir.
Are you required to do so by regulations or just a personal preference?
What is the procedure taught to class D controllers? (is what I'm after)
Click to expand...


You know, honestly I don't think there is a particular regulation, as each Class D tower is different. Some are more proceduralized, others are more "seat-of-your-pants" type of operation. My tower falls into the latter description. I was trained to resolve conflicts then issue them a turn on course as soon as traffic allows.
 
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