Citation lost contact falcon field

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by edslau33, Feb 8, 2020.

  1. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Didn't appear that way to me, if you're talking about the one at BKL. I know the NTSB has a theory about negative transfer and idiot light placement, but geez, man, the guy had two big attitude indicators and probably a p-nut one too right in front of his face. Then there's the others at Indy, Atlanta, Utah (?) and ditched in the Pacific just off the West Coast. I know there's more too.
     
  2. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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    can you verify if he ever did sim training in 501SP?
     
  3. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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    Everything comes at a price. Underwriters have been short selling their product for the last 10 years with steady premium decreases warding off competition in hopes of maintaining market share. Eager for lower operating cost operators across the board snapped up below market rate insurance offerings with broad form coverages that literally protected every conceivable aviation risk. At the same time relaxed qualification criteria for insurance allowed many to run up the ladder quickly into very expensive high-performance aircraft in many cases with just a sign off and a sim session. After years of continuous underwriting red ink, the tide has turned with a vengeance, single pilot owner operators especially are making noises as they have seen their premium go from unrealistically low annual cost to intolerable premiums for basic cover with no logic in historical comparatives. Folks, Ray Charles (Stevie Wonder for you young folks) could see this crisis coming with sunglasses on.


    For many higher faster further was the lure, many stepping out of general aviation piston high performance platforms to the newest sleek ultra-high performs SP Jets and turbo props. Unfortunately for many this transition has proved to be disastrous further translating into massive losses for the insurers who were betting on smooth safe transitions and operations, instead they paid for smoking holes and bent aluminum. The industry witness this same cycle back in the late 50’s, eager to learn to fly from the plentiful phenom of surplus training aircraft post WW2, and a booming economy folks yearning to fly began snapping up J3 Cubs and 7AC Aeronica Champs, Taylor Craft’s all capable aircraft but with limited VNEs, now comes the Gleam in everyone’s eye.. the new V tail Beech Bonanza !!…. sleek, high flying and fast 200MPH …It did not take long for the losses to start mounting with quick transitions finding wings shedding from steep spirals out of the clouds and ultimately impacting terra firma. Soon everyone would joke and say the two most dangerous things in the world were a rich teenage driver in a new corvette/Ford Mustang or a Dr. in a Bonanza…


    These issues were no joking matter then and are certainly not now. It did not take long for the FAA to figure out the culprit was a pat on the back after a few hours of dual transition from a trainer to a high performance single retract that allowed 90Kts wonders to find themselves hurtling toward eternity in their new toys… fix, specified training and high performance training endorsements from qualified CFIs…the insurance industry stepped in and added a second tier of requirements in the form of minimum dual hours to transition into HP retracts before solo. In the latter case there is inconsistency between companies and no federal or state statutory requirement to even maintain insurance, so therein lies a chink in the armor.


    Contemporary to this evolution of reaction to safety issues the FAA will at some point require type ratings in all high-performance aircraft. Over kill probably but it is coming. The insurance companies eager to stay out of a pool of red ink as well will implement additional sanctions in form of mandatory Sim training every 12 months, without compromise of in aircraft training, plus for those transitioning , scrutiny will be closely monitored instead of hours to transition to no changes or approvals during 12 month policy periods before recognizing Single Pilot ops in most types sought for insurability.


    WE brought it on ourselves wanting to go faster , further and higher and now have to pay more than one pied piper for the experience of flight…seems like this is not a new reality, someone named Icarus met with the same complications and fate in his quest to fly as well, will we ever learn?

    Why get burned? perhaps we should all slow down and smell the burnt JP4 and evolve into our higher faster further transitions instead of dying and taking loved ones with us in our newer faster flying machines…close your eyes relax and think about it.. does this apply to you in any way.




    Lance Tōland
     
  4. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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  5. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Well written nice post, thanks

    I think you are right.. look at the MU2, although not a "type rating" per se, the enhanced training has done wonders for the "safety" of that plane. You could say similar about the Cirrus transition course.. although not a "type rating" the CSIP program did increase the overall "safety" of the Cirrus..

    There is some value for standardized training

    This was always kind of scary to me, that you could go from being a 60 hr C172 pilot, get a complex endorsement from a CFI in an Arrow after a few hours, and then buy yourself something like a Mooney, or Bonanza.. or hell more
     
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  6. Tarheelpilot

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    The straight wing citations are ***** cats. Nothing difficult about them imc or vmc.
     
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  7. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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    I was one of the original founders of the Classic Jet Warbird Association. Our number one priority when we formed was how do we stop killing ourselves? in the first year of formation we lost 8 ember in surplus military jets..it was not hard to figure out that ego was a huge factor in these operation. soon levelheaded training started then type ratings.. it is one thing to be exposed to training for transition it is another to be seasoned in a particular make and model.. I speculate that the Citation crash in Georgia will reveal a 172 driver who ran up the ladder way to quick in my opinion..
     
  8. dtuuri

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    Are you talking about this Citation or the subject of this thread? https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20181220X31531&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
     
  9. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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  10. Lance F

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    Great to have a real aviation insurance pro on board. Thanks for your comments Lance.
     
  11. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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    we have to police ourselves or the Feds will implement draconian measures. thanks for your kind comment. i am truly concerned.
     
  12. Grum.Man

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    While it's not clear what ratings the PIC had, the co-pilot in the plane of which he owned and operated is also the President of Falcon Aviation Academy. A commercial pilot with C/CE-500 type rating. I would think he would be a pretty competent pilot.
     
  13. Flocker

    Flocker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Victims have been identified. It appears as if he had a co-pilot.
     
  14. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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    The point I tied to make in my earlier post, Everything comes at a cost, is that a ticket in your pocket makes not a seasoned airman. Pitot heat is first thing that comes to mind, two untrained CRM pilots also can be a confusing factor if you have no real coordination, second pilot can be more of a distraction..then there is the weather.. I can tell you this ATP would have delayed departure just looking out the window Saturday by PDK i though glad im not flying today.....I did two weeks earlier in my PC12 going to the LSU Clemson game, was disappointing to a full airplane but low viz at every station along the way from SSI to New Orleans was a factor as well as 1/8 mi reporting with terrible forecast.. sometimes you just say NO..
     
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  15. Fearless Tower

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    May be even worse.

    Word is training flight on an airplane that had been down for a while for avionics upgrade. First test flight in hard IMC with pax onboard.

    Not sure why anyone would think that was a good idea, but I once watched a retired airline pilot depart in LIFR from a non-towered field upon picking up his PA32 from a full panel job. That was his test flight.
     
  16. Tarheelpilot

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    That would be a level of risk I would not accept.
     
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  17. Lance Toland

    Lance Toland Filing Flight Plan

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    Identical loss of a Citation Super S2 last year out of avionics upgrade first flight in a month or so. Owner departed IMC made 5 miles..at least the one saturday did gain some altitude and few miles up stream.. see spread sheet i posted..it is in there..
     
  18. Tarheelpilot

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    It happens often. I watched a guy take off in a bird with a brand new engine installation. First flight straight home trying to complete a 500 mile cross country racing weather and sunset. He lived. The airplane was a total loss.
     
  19. Tantalum

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    Were the avionics actually faulty, or did the guy just not know how to use them right?

    So is the standard private jet owner just very laissez faire and presses the LNAV VNAV when they take off without really knowing how to actually fly?

    Are people that dependent on autopilot?
     
  20. Tarheelpilot

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    I don’t know. I’m just saying that the straight wing citations are about as honest and predictable as one could find to fly SP. easy systems. Easy to fly. Just nothing to hard about them and if you have a good skill set in something like a 421 a citation is REALLY easy.

    Anecdotally I see poor judgment being the biggest pilot error in these type of accidents. If it’s true that the pilot launched into IMC for the first flight after a major avionics upgrade then I think we are done talking about what happened... someone that reckless is capable of doing all grades of stupid stuff.

    I very seriously doubt it had anything to do with inherent faults or challenges with flying a straight wing citation.
     
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  21. Fearless Tower

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    Very true. I found the Citation easier to fly than the 421. Only thing that can be more challenging if you aren’t used to it is pitch can feel very heavy at climb power if you aren’t actively working the trim. You adjust to it quickly, but that was the biggest thing that stood out to me first time I flew it. Sims don’t replicate that aspect (control stiffness in climb) very well in my opinion.
     
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  22. dtuuri

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    Yeah, well easy to handle. Depends what you mean by "fly". The initial type rating at FSI wasn't all that hard, other than they cram as much into every minute as they can. But every time you go back through recurrent training the sons of guns get more devious. The initial ride you get a failed current limiter on start and catch it with the checklist. Next time, it's failed after the checklist. Then eventually, they gives ya an inadvertent TR deployment on takeoff with a successful stow and 45 minutes later a low oil pressure on the other engine. So you shuts it down and, guess what, the stowed TR un-stows and down you go. Because the current limiter blew when you stowed the TR, unbeknownst to you, and the holding relay is hooked up to the engine with low oil pressure you just shut down out of an abundance of caution! And there you sit, 15 years after your initial training feeling as dumb as the day you were born. BTDT.

    Btw, how well could you remember all that after 20 years? :)
     
  23. Fearless Tower

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    Valid point. Lots of airplanes are easy to fly until things go wrong and they can quickly become a handful.

    Its like a T6: a very easy honest airplane that is a pleasure to fly....until it isn’t.
     
  24. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Good point.
     
  25. Tarheelpilot

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    Lol. I LOVE teaching recurrent.

    20 years... ha. I’m down to measuring my retention in months. I study a lot...
     
  26. Fearless Tower

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    I can’t link it because the one I heard is on another paid site, but if you can find the LiveATC feed for ATL Departure, it’s very interesting and very frustrating.

    The controller could tell that something wasn’t right and several times asked if they needed assistance and they kept down playing their issues.

    Downright maddening.
     
  27. Lfam

    Lfam Filing Flight Plan

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    I'm inclined to not believe that he was testing out the plane. He had a whole crew of maintenance people who should have done that and have done that for all of the other planes that he owned and have had issues with over the years, though, I suppose anything is possible. Again, this guy (owner of the plane) wasn't a stranger to flying in weather, so I don't see that being a deterrent for him. I did not know the person acting as PIC, but I'm confident in the plane owner's skills as I've personally flown with him with my own family on board. I would have trusted him without a doubt. Before we get all cocky, the pilot I knew on board flew nearly every single day. He trained many many people on that particular aircraft, the king air, and others. It should serve as a lesson that everyone is capable of making catastrophic mistakes and we can only learn from it and try to not make the same mistakes.
     
  28. Lance Toland

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    The FAA will find the cause as wreckage is surprisingly intact
    No one is getting cocky here just an observation that the weather was really awful for any type of GA flying. Saying no is not a shame game it is a product of risk assessment.
    And to your point he flew a lot of training aircraft and will be interested to see if any real full motion sim training was under his belt.
    Put this in the bank I am disgusted with the carnage of the last few years in SP jets and turboprops it has to stop
    Too many innocent people are losing their life’s at the hands of gross incompetence. Sorry it is that simple think about it
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  29. Lfam

    Lfam Filing Flight Plan

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    When we know what happened, then we can comment. They do have a few simulators at Falcon, and I know he has used and trained people in them but nothing on the level of a full-motion sim . I have no idea if he had training on a full-motion, but I wouldn't put that past him, he definitely had the resources to do that. He has had that plane for around 6 years and been flying and training on it. Incompetent, he was not. Poor decision making, well any pilot can be capable of that, and as I said, we don't know exactly what happened. Seasoned pilots could be guilty of taking certain problems for granted. Complacency is usually the culprit in pilot error.
     
  30. Lance Toland

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    Let’s cap it for now and let the Feds do their work. If owner was doing a Post maintenance flight in Hard IFR and Ice that alone reveals a lot to this ATP
    We have to stop the Kumbaya and get serious about these accidents gang
     
  31. Fearless Tower

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    Regardless of what the purpose of the flight was, the inescapable fact is that they clearly were having a serious issue and yet never declared an emergency even after ATC asked them if they needed help....several times.

    Why do people keep doing this to themselves?
     
  32. Lance Toland

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    Same thing helo pilot did in S76 out west he was afraid of being guilty of something and we shall see if he was in violation of His ops specs
    Just declare and emergency no big deal ATC is the best and will do all they can to assist if you listen to the Bryant tapes ATC was very professional and trying to help same in this case ATC was frustrated wanting to help
     
  33. kyleb

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    It appears they were struggling to maintain altitude (dunno about track), and I can't imagine what ATC would have done that would have helped them. In that situation, I would declare just as soon as I thought it would be beneficial to *me*. I don't want to be playing 20 questions when I need to fully concentrate on flying the airplane.

    What am I overlooking?
     
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  34. Lance Toland

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    ATC would have cleared the air space give them unlimited clearance to climb if it were a Peto static issue he could’ve flown to AOA which is totally separate from that system climbed VFR on top and figured it out from there don’t want to be a Monday morning quarterback but again let the FAA do their job they know what they’re doing And will sort it out so that we can all learn
     
  35. Fearless Tower

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    If I was in a jet and having trouble with the avionics and A/P, I’d want to get climbing up to the nearest clear skies to continue to trouble shoot.

    Declaring an emergency allows ATC to clear the airspace around you. The tops were around 20-22K. The idea is to simplify things as much as possible. Much easier to manage Pitch and power and let the airplane climb than trying to fly a bunch of vectors while maintaining an assigned altitude.

    But you have to tell the controller what you need.

    As far as playing 20 questions, that is where you have to remember you are still the PIC. Sometimes you have to do a Sully and say ‘unable’
     
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  36. dtuuri

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    The pitot heat switch also controls the AOA probe heat, IIRC. I think kyleb said it well, "I would declare just as soon as I thought it would be beneficial to *me*." Picture yourself trying to figure out what's wrong and being interrogated for the nature of your emergency, the number of souls on board, your fuel supply in minutes and finally the kind of assistance you need. All the while you're pushing or pulling on the yoke trying to out muscle a recalcitrant autopilot or trim system, hunting for a circuit breaker and having a life or death conversation with your copilot about the emergency checklist. Aviate, navigate, communicate (last).
     
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  37. N747JB

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    IIRC it’s been 13 years since I sold my 551, but the pitot heat off was on the annunciater panel as a yellow light. Before takeoff checklist includes panel clear. It certainly could have malfunctioned, but it’s not likely they forgot.
     
  38. Tarheelpilot

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    If the pilot of that airplane took off into actual IMC on the first flight after a major avionics upgrade that is a level of risk I am not willing to take.

    Take a deep breath and read that again. You are drawing conclusions about what I think that are not accurate regarding the PIC.
     
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  39. Fearless Tower

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    I understand what you are trying to say, but we have teach it a different way. That stuff should never be a factor in whether or not to declare.

    “Emergency”. It’s one word that changes The whole equation. It instantly makes you the priority. The question and answer session can come later (the Aviate, Navigate, Communicate thing). That’s where pilots need to understand when and how to use the word ‘unable’.

    But until you tell them you have an emergency, you are still obliged to maintain altitude and heading which is a lot more work than saying unable, in my experience, and yes, I’ve declared before.

    That said, as we now know, there were apparently two pilots up front which makes avoiding ‘20 questions’ really silly. Unless this was some unique situation (like 737 Max with both pilots fighting the controls) PIC should have been flying the airplane and letting the other pilot handle the questions and answers.

    In my opinion it’s one of the downsides of guys who do the SP training. When they have do have to fly with a copilot (like going international) some of them forget how to utilize the second pilot and try to do everything themselves.
     
  40. dtuuri

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    That's a good point. Likewise, within the cockpit, saying "Help me" to the other crewmembers alerts them even when you can't get the proper words out describing your problem. If you feel ATC needs to know, sure, say so. Me? I do what I need to do and don't care about saying "Emergency". If holding altitude was a problem, like during a loss of pressurization or smoke in the cockpit, I'd let them know I'm descending. Might even remember to say "Emergency". Either way, I'm heading for fresh air.

    In my experience it works better if the PIC takes over the radio and speaks directly with ATC while the SIC navigates the emergency checklist.