Citation lost contact falcon field

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by edslau33, Feb 8, 2020.

  1. edslau33

    edslau33 Filing Flight Plan

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  2. edslau33

    edslau33 Filing Flight Plan

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  3. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Sad RIP
     
  4. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Quite an unusual track for a jet as well. Wonder what happened with this one?

    I’m about 30nm NE of where this went down. Was LIFR with light snow around the time of the accident.

    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N501RG
     
  5. edslau33

    edslau33 Filing Flight Plan

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    I am about the same distance southwest. It was snowing but very calm. I don’t know that is a strange track and the Altitude was odd also. Varying a lot thousands of feet.


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  6. dbahn

    dbahn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Seems to have had a lot of airspeed variation.

    Clipboard01.jpg
     
  7. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    That little bird was pushing 40 years old (81 or 82 model). One of those 'affordable' jets, until you have to fix it. Likely six-pack type panel (I don't think many have upgraded those to any sort of glass.)
     
  8. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And altitude. Look at the altitude fluctuations when they level off at 10,000.

    Anyone seen an ATC feed?
     
  9. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Very interesting track for a Citation.

    Looks entirely hand flown.
     
  10. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    EFA9F242-6AE0-4E6B-988A-37EF0EE2667F.jpeg Thats the next county over from me. Snow day this AM.
     
  11. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    The Gordon/Cherokee county border is a pretty undeveloped area. Scott Crossfield had his bad day near there a bunch of years ago.
     
  12. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    What does that have to do with the situation?
     
  13. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe a lot, maybe nothing. Too soon to tell.

    But regardless, it won’t help any single pilot operators get insurance.
     
  14. DrPappy

    DrPappy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Does anyone know why contact would be lost at 12,325 feet? Other than in-flight breakup or power loss? Not speculating, just want to understand the data.
     
  15. Dave Theisen

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    I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.
     
  16. edslau33

    edslau33 Filing Flight Plan

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    There was a bit of a thing a few years ago upgrading these and diamond jets if I remember with glass panels and Williams engines. So it may not be totally a 40 year old plane with steam gauges. Which there is nothing wrong with I have flown many hours in Incase with them.


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  17. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    That type of flight track in a plane like that would make sense if IMC getting hand flown. I imagine they are a handful. Especially if you are flying off the right side instruments as mentioned above.
     
  18. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Oh man... :(
     
  19. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That would explain the track.

    Sounds eerily similar to the Citation crash in Utah a few years ago.
     
  20. geezer

    geezer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Dave Theisen said:
    I don’t have the link right now, but a friend sent me the Live ATC clip where he says he lost the left side AI, and that the autopilot disconnected and he was flying off the right side instruments.


    I think that I would rather fly partial panel on my side than try to have a scan that went to the other side. Too easy to fix on the difficult to see, but primary instrument, and let heading and altitude get out of control.

    A good scan of the remaining instruments on your side, with T&B as primary for heading, airspeed and ROC guiding altitude, would be easier than the twisting and turning to clearly see the horizon on the other side. A 180 away from the mountains would be good insurance, to, as the turbulence should have been less to the south east.

    I certainly do not envy being in that much mess without all the instruments. If he customarily flew on autopilot, even tougher to keep the right side up. I wonder if his autopilot was controlled by the horizon that failed?

    Sad when things go so wrong.
     
  21. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Wonder if he tested his pitot heat during preflight.
     
  22. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Okay, a question for you jet pilots...if partial panel IFR skills are problematic wouldn't it have been easiest to climb up out of the murk on a constant heading and get on top?
     
  23. Lfam

    Lfam Filing Flight Plan

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    Does anyone have the link to that atc clip?
     
  24. Dave Theisen

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  25. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you can. That’s what the guy in Utah was trying to do when he lost control (single pilot).

    Single pilot in a jet is not to be trifled with. A lot of single pilot companies right now are finding insurance companies won’t write them SP policies any more. That’s part of the shakeup going on in the aviation insurance industry this year.
     
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  26. Larry Sturm

    Larry Sturm Filing Flight Plan

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    I have to disagree with you on the insurance issue. I have been flying Citations Single Pilot under a Single Pilot Exemption since 1982, with over 10,000 hours single pilot in Citations. I have never had a problem with insurance. Last month we just renewed the policy on our Citation Bravo. No issue at all. As a matter of fact my single pilot premium is the same premium if I was insuring a two pilot crew.
     
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  27. Larry Sturm

    Larry Sturm Filing Flight Plan

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    When you loose any of the instruments on the pilots side, you do not scan back and forth from the pilots side to the co pilots side. You have a full panel of instruments on the co pilots side. You are taught to just look across the cockpit to fly. No difference than a 172 instructor in the right seat looking at the students instruments on the left side of the aircraft. I have over 10,000 hours single pilot in varies Citations. I have lost flight instruments on the pilots side several times over the last 40 years. It is not a big deal if you are properly trained and current in the aircraft.
     
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  28. Rein Hart

    Rein Hart Pre-Flight

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    Lots of assumptions here that 501RG was flying single pilot.
     
  29. Kenny Phillips

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    Yeah, I was gonna make the point that even in an old Citation, the likelihood of a true partial panel is low. A displaced panel, to be sure. Of course, one must first identify that there is a problem with the instruments in front of them.
     
  30. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    I seem to recall all Citations had standby attitude indicators. Or am I thinking of a different instrument?
     
  31. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    They should. At least every CE-500 I’ve flown had one.

    This is going to be an interesting one. I’ll wait before posting anything further on it until the rumors are confirmed. It’s all hearsay at this point.
     
  32. N747JB

    N747JB Final Approach

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    Mine did, it was a small one in the center stack.
    I had the primary IA fail in my 441 many years ago, it takes out the autopilot and the radar, it isn’t a fun time, but it’s doable. RIP
     
  33. Geosync

    Geosync Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well if you’re a pro pilot with 10k plus hours, that’s one thing. But the single pilot business owner for whom flying is ancillary to the business is the real problem.
     
  34. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Who is your underwriter?

    I obviously don’t pay your bills, but all I can say is that as a CE-500 SIC, the market is picking up right now because some are not getting renewed as SP.

    If your premium didn’t increase, did the owner lower the hull value?

    This is part of the greater insurance shakeup that AOPA and a lot of corporate groups are crying about. GA losses in the past two years have kicked the underwriters in the nuts and almost everyone is seeing some kind of premium increase.

    If you truly renewed in the last month and didn’t see an increase while carrying the same hull value, you should consider yourself very lucky.
     
  35. Dave Theisen

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    yeah, I’m hearing that there was a second pilot.
     
  36. Rein Hart

    Rein Hart Pre-Flight

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    Yes.
     
  37. Larry Sturm

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  38. Larry Sturm

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  39. Larry Sturm

    Larry Sturm Filing Flight Plan

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    SIC is someone most people just but in the right seat. Means nothing.
     
  40. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

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    Question coming from a VRF guy. In something like a Citation, if you loose AI and auto pilot, how hard is it to trim for best climb in IFR conditions?