Citation crash in Utah

One of us is upside down, Ben. I looked at the pic and I think the cabin top is toward us, which means the snack/beverage unit would be on the other side (forward of the main entrance). One of the windows on the co-pilots (up) side is an emergency exit. I think that may be what's open. That, or I'm completely upside down. In any event, RIP to both.

Jim

From the pic of the man and his wife in front of the plane it appears to be a CJ1, which would have the beverage center on the left side behind the pilot, and a sideways facing seat where that hole is. The escape door is aft, over the toilet.
 
I don't know this airplane but have a couple hundred hours in the C-500 series. My educated guess is the L and R hand sides are completely separate buses, so loss of one side shouldn't disable the other. There is also a standby instrument that isn't connected to either. There might even be two autopilots. Simple matter of pushing the right button or hitting the BRB (big red button) and god forbid fly it by hand and keep the wings level.

I looked at the pictures and based on my opinion is it looks like they but open the copilot side of airplane, based on relatively square looking cuts and the jagged edges.

Hate to trounce the dead, but it is a rich guy with ability to buy more airplane than he has experience with.
He had flown that AC for 13 years, hardly inexperienced.
 
RIP

My query is don't Citation's have seperate or double redundant systems? Do they have seperate vacuum and electrical steam instruments like a GA plane?

If the AI goes out, I would suspect vacuum and fly with the turn coordinator, airspeed, and DG/compass ordinarily if in IMC. I'm not second guessing the pilot, hell, I'm not even IR, just curious why an A/P malfunction or a partial panel could get so out of hand on such a sofisticated aircraft.

This jet does not have pneumatic gyros. Lol

FAA shows it was 525-0299 which would have all electric individual instruments. Also showing it should have had a J.E.T. standby attitude gyro with a separate emergency battery, which is charged by the aircraft in normal operation.
 
He only registered it 9 years ago. Where did you see 13 years?
Came from Beech Talk. I am not sure how they arrived at that, but a couple posters there had spoken with the accident pilot at the conference the day before.

Whether it was 9 years of 13, I don't think it matters that much. Bottom line, while he was certainly not as proficient as a 121 or 135 jet guy who does this stuff every day for a living, he was no novice as some folks want to quickly paint him as.

I think that kind of attitude is detrimental to the learning process. If you dismiss this as 'some rich guy over his head in a jet' you miss out on the fact that an accident like this could happen to almost any of us if caught off guard at the wrong moment.
 
Whether it was 9 years of 13, I don't think it matters that much.

If you dismiss this as 'some rich guy over his head in a jet' you miss out on the fact that an accident like this could happen to almost any of us if caught off guard at the wrong moment.
That's how I'm reading it.

The only thing I'm confident about after reading here and in BT is that I don't know enough about Citation systems or this accident to even have a WAG as to what happened. Waiting for some NTSB stuff.
 
I think that kind of attitude is detrimental to the learning process. If you dismiss this as 'some rich guy over his head in a jet' you miss out on the fact that an accident like this could happen to almost any of us if caught off guard at the wrong moment.

:yeahthat:
 
From the pic of the man and his wife in front of the plane it appears to be a CJ1, which would have the beverage center on the left side behind the pilot, and a sideways facing seat where that hole is. The escape door is aft, over the toilet.

So I was one for two....pretty par for the course. :rofl: I had finally figured out that It's the Bravo that has the emergency exit across from the main door. Thanks for the info!

Jim
 
The original posted article said he has been a registered pilot (whatever that is) since 2008. I am guessing that is when he got his pilots license which is only 8 years ago. That is a lot of flying as an individual to be moving up to a complex turbine aircraft in only 8 years.
 
"Getting from point a to point b isn't the only thing jets can do really fast..."

Love it....
 
I'm not saying the deceased is a novice, but there's a large canyon between "it can happen to anyone" and being unprepared to handle systems failure/alternate crosschecks in IMC behind single pilot turbines. A couple drills once a year at a sim won't do squat for a non-recent avocational flyer behind a de facto part 25 turbine. This accident is a glaring example of that to me, much to the grimace of the upper class peanut gallery.

Had this autopilot/electrics failure occurred in VMC, the deceased most likely would still be with us. I think his level of experience would have supported that outcome. I call it: "stay in your f--ng lane" ADM. I exercise it in my own recreational flying, even as a pro pilot. In my case, my equipment limits my options, so I respect that limitation and scale back my IMC incursions to those I can handle in the absence of an attitude indicator, which is very small since I have little tolerance for N-B-A in recreational flying, but cannot afford redundant AHRS based electric PFDs/AIs in my rat trap. If I was a well to do non-pro, and my livelihood did not afford me the time to pursue recurrent training and flying recency to the level of a professional, I'd accept that opportunity cost and scale back my flying below that of the capabilities of the aircraft. No ego, no harm no foul. There are people on this board who fly all their lives across the continent VFR-only. I think some extra-lite-IFR in turbine equipment is still a lot of capability in the aggregate, but with a lot less coffin corners. Just thinking out loud.

Let's stay humble out there folks, this isn't work, its supposed to be fun.
 
People who fly planes like these do so for the speed and the safety factor. It humbles a single driver to listen to a guy like that go through something like that. If that can happen to a stud jet like that, my single can have the same fate from far less issues.
That being said. Had he been flying a Cirrus, there is a greater chance this pilot would be alive right now. I don't like Cirrus all that much, but had he had a parachute at what point would he have pulled it.
 
The original posted article said he has been a registered pilot (whatever that is) since 2008. I am guessing that is when he got his pilots license which is only 8 years ago. That is a lot of flying as an individual to be moving up to a complex turbine aircraft in only 8 years.

My PPL says "Issued 2010", but I passed my checkride in 2001.

Don't believe anything you read in the popular press, particularly concerning aviation.
 
People who fly planes like these do so for the speed and the safety factor. It humbles a single driver to listen to a guy like that go through something like that. If that can happen to a stud jet like that, my single can have the same fate from far less issues.
That being said. Had he been flying a Cirrus, there is a greater chance this pilot would be alive right now. I don't like Cirrus all that much, but had he had a parachute at what point would he have pulled it.

They are safer when operated by a crew that studies and knows the systems.
In reality there is a lot more stuff that can go wrong and a kill you.

Have you seen the size of the flight manuals on these aircraft? They typically have a flight manual that covers several aircraft configurations, meaning they are loaded with crap that doesn't apply and the pilots are the ones that are supposed to know that Service Bulletins A, B & C are installed and now these systems operate differently, and yes it still has the OLD data too! Its semi insanity IMHO. The manual is so big & heavy that if you need to retrieve it from behind your seat you probably couldn't do it without both hands.

Kinda moot if critical stuff fails and can't quickly recognize and take appropriate actions tho.

A pylon overheat warning? What do you do? AC inverter failure?
 
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One thing to consider is that the more complex the aircraft is, the more complex the failure modes can be. You can also have what is referred to as cascading casualties, where one larger issue (like an electrical fire or short circuit in a critical piece of equipment) can result in multiple follow on failures that may not seem related if it catches you off guard. That is what makes single pilot jets a challenge IMO. When things start to not work properly, it puts you on the spot. You don't have a second pilot to help while you try to figure it all out.

...

+1

I've never piloted a jet. The fastest airplane I've ever flown is right seat in a Cheyenne IV. Sometimes things are happening pretty fast even in my Aztec compared to the lowly Cessna 150 I started in. Single pilot IFR in a jet must be pretty demanding at times even when everything is working properly.

Before we get too critical about the pilot, maybe we should recall there were three professional pilots in AF 447...and they never figured out what was going on even though most of their panel was still functioning.
 
This jet does not have pneumatic gyros. Lol

FAA shows it was 525-0299 which would have all electric individual instruments. Also showing it should have had a J.E.T. standby attitude gyro with a separate emergency battery, which is charged by the aircraft in normal operation.



Goes to show what I know. :rolleyes:

You say Citation and my eyes glaze over with all the systems.

It will be interesting to hear what the final opinions are on this accident.
 
Have you seen the size of the flight manuals on these aircraft?

CJ Flight Manual 1166 pages, about 4" thick and 45mB.
CJ Operating Manual 474 pages, maybe 3" and 28mB.
FS Pilot Training Manual about 800p
 
From what I understand, the man had been a pilot for over 20 years.
 
They are safer when operated by a crew that studies and knows the systems.
In reality there is a lot more stuff that can go wrong and a kill you.

Have you seen the size of the flight manuals on these aircraft? They typically have a flight manual that covers several aircraft configurations, meaning they are loaded with crap that doesn't apply and the pilots are the ones that are supposed to know that Service Bulletins A, B & C are installed and now these systems operate differently, and yes it still has the OLD data too! Its semi insanity IMHO. The manual is so big & heavy that if you need to retrieve it from behind your seat you probably couldn't do it without both hands.

Kinda moot if critical stuff fails and can't quickly recognize and take appropriate actions tho.

A pylon overheat warning? What do you do? AC inverter failure?
A good operator will weed out the non serial number information. In all honesty, it's not usually all that much.
Source: Typed in most Citations ever built.
 
It's also kinda strange to me when people say "Citation" as if they are talking only about one type of airplane or a group of very similar ones. They aren't, other than being business jets.
 
A good operator will weed out the non serial number information. In all honesty, it's not usually all that much.
Source: Typed in most Citations ever built.

What amazes me is how many "professional" pilots don't bother taking the time to crack open the AFM..."everything I need to know, they taught me at initial.":mad2:
 
What amazes me is how many "professional" pilots don't bother taking the time to crack open the AFM..."everything I need to know, they taught me at initial.":mad2:

True to a point.... It honestly depends on your training department. Ours dictated to FSI the exact SOP's and procedures that were to be followed. The FSI instructors needed to be specially trained for our company specs. Ground school at FSI was limited to our company only. Other companies not allowed as we didn't want to mix policies/procedures.

Bottom line... If proper training is received every six months, you are good to go.
 
True to a point.... It honestly depends on your training department. Ours dictated to FSI the exact SOP's and procedures that were to be followed. The FSI instructors needed to be specially trained for our company specs. Ground school at FSI was limited to our company only. Other companies not allowed as we didn't want to mix policies/procedures.

Bottom line... If proper training is received every six months, you are good to go.

No matter what your company dictates, no training operator is going to spoon feed every word of every page in the AFM. Nor is every checklist going to be trained, even over a period of several years. It's still up to the individual pilot to make sure he knows what info is in the AFM and other aircraft pubs.
 
No matter what your company dictates, no training operator is going to spoon feed every word of every page in the AFM. Nor is every checklist going to be trained, even over a period of several years. It's still up to the individual pilot to make sure he knows what info is in the AFM and other aircraft pubs.

In all honesty.... We rarely ever looked at the AFM. It truly doesn't work that way in the 135/121 world. In fact, I've never even seen an actual "AFM" in the 121 world.
 
It's also kinda strange to me when people say "Citation" as if they are talking only about one type of airplane or a group of very similar ones. They aren't, other than being business jets.

Meh, close enough until you start going to Excel and up.
 
Meh, close enough until you start going to Excel and up.

Not really. Some 500's are completely different than some 525's. That's why it's a different type. The CJ4 is another whole different animal although still a 525 type.
 
In all honesty.... We rarely ever looked at the AFM. It truly doesn't work that way in the 135/121 world. In fact, I've never even seen an actual "AFM" in the 121 world.

i can't speak for the 121 world, but the AFM/POM provided by the manufacturer and aftermarket providers for every turbine airplane I've flown under 135 has had lots of valuable information unavailable elsewhere.
 
i can't speak for the 121 world, but the AFM/POM provided by the manufacturer and aftermarket providers for every turbine airplane I've flown under 135 has had lots of valuable information unavailable elsewhere.

Not so much when I was in the 135 world. The performance was done through the iPad program, and the system knowledge was in the FSI books. There was never (rarely) a reason to consult the AFM.
 
What amazes me is how many "professional" pilots don't bother taking the time to crack open the AFM..."everything I need to know, they taught me at initial.":mad2:

I have read the huge FM and OM posted above cover to cover (well excepting the performance charts) at least 10 times and still find stuff later on we have never covered (during recurrent) or I somehow missed during self-study.
The airplane is packed with automation.
Which is often the problem. I call it the pushbutton airplane. Push the right buttons and it gets the job done.
However...when there is a system or instrument failure everything changes dramatically. Dealing with an abnormality even with 2 pilots can be challenging depending on what it is and when it happens.
The automation can easily lull you into a contented sleepiness....and perhaps incompetency when the shtf.
 
I have read the huge FM and OM posted above cover to cover (well excepting the performance charts) at least 10 times and still find stuff later on we have never covered (during recurrent) or I somehow missed during self-study.
The airplane is packed with automation.
Which is often the problem. I call it the pushbutton airplane. Push the right buttons and it gets the job done.
However...when there is a system or instrument failure everything changes dramatically. Dealing with an abnormality even with 2 pilots can be challenging depending on what it is and when it happens.
The automation can easily lull you into a contented sleepiness....and perhaps incompetency when the shtf.

What airplane?
 
My PPL says "Issued 2010", but I passed my checkride in 2001.

Don't believe anything you read in the popular press, particularly concerning aviation.

Same here, passed in 2001, mine says 2011. Thats when I finally got around to getting the plastic card.
 
They are safer when operated by a crew that studies and knows the systems.
In reality there is a lot more stuff that can go wrong and a kill you.


Kinda moot if critical stuff fails and can't quickly recognize and take appropriate actions tho.

A pylon overheat warning? What do you do? AC inverter failure?

The planes I flew at the airline had QRH (quick reaction handbook) that contained all the system failures (abnormals) and emergency procedure checklists. This was kept on the center console. One pilot flew while the other read/performed the checklist. The company training department also had a POH with a ton of information issued to each pilot, much of it from the AFM. A lot of studying and proficiency check rides (we called them job checks) every 6 months. Unannounced line checks where a company instructor or FAA Inspector rode the jump seat and observed the crews performance.
 
After listening to the LiveATC recording, I still don't understand why he told center, even after all the gauge failures and just a few seconds before the plane broke up in flight, that he STILL wanted to go to Tucson..:dunno::confused:
 
even after all the gauge failures and just a few seconds before the plane broke up in flight, that he STILL wanted to go to Tucson.

Some say it was an automatic response in order to get atc to shut up so he could work the problem. (he knew any other response except one asking for radio silence would have resulted in more radio chit-chat)
 
Some say it was an automatic response in order to get atc to shut up so he could work the problem. (he knew any other response except one asking for radio silence would have resulted in more radio chit-chat)

Yeah, the next question would have been "what are your intentions?"
 
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