Citation crash in Utah

hard to listen to. he said something like "my altitude failed but my #2 is working". I'm guessing he meant a 2nd altimeter and not #2 engine? also lost other instruments, was last on radar at 20,500 in IMC. very sad.
 
Initial reports were that he was requesting higher alt due to white out conditions but I don't know how that relates to some indication of a mid air explosion.

Hope to hear some more accurate details as to the cause.
 
I didn't listen, because I find it very hard to listen to accident audio, but could it have been attitude indicator that failed? I would think altitude wouldn't be a big deal!

eman1200 said:
hard to listen to. he said something like "my altitude failed but my #2 is working". I'm guessing he meant a 2nd altimeter and not #2 engine? also lost other instruments, was last on radar at 20,500 in IMC. very sad.
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N747JB said:
I didn't listen, because I find it very hard to listen to accident audio, but could it have been attitude indicator that failed? I would think altitude wouldn't be a big deal!
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Agreed....

Flying a Citation at 20,000+ feet ... 99% of the time the A/P is running the show....
 
N747JB said:
I didn't listen, because I find it very hard to listen to accident audio, but could it have been attitude indicator that failed? I would think altitude wouldn't be a big deal!
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Having listened to the tape, it's sounds like it started with an A/P that wouldn't hold altitude and then got worse from there. IOW, the problem was bigger than the autopilot. It is actually a good clip to listen to for anyone who flies a single pilot high performance aircraft as it highlights the challenge of trying to fly the airplane, troubleshoot and communicate with ATC by yourself.

This wasn't some brand new owner in a recently purchased jet. This guy actually had several years experience with that airplane.
 
ya he specifically says 'my altitude won't hold so I'm hand flying it now'. then he also says he needs to get higher and that he's losing different instruments.
 
eman1200 said:
N711BX
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Thanks....

Fuselage held up pretty well considering it fall 20,000 feet.... What's left of the right wing is still attached by cables, wires etc etc....

Also , on Citation, the beverage center / snack cabinet is right where the huge hole in the fuselage.. Maybe a bomb ??:confused:

Unless that is where S&R cut into it to retrieve the victims.... Altho all they needed to do is recover them from the popped out windshield...

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/01/cessna-525-citationjet-cj1-n711bx-fatal.html
 
N801BH said:
Thanks....

Fuselage held up pretty well considering it fall 20,000 feet.... What's left of the right wing is still attached by cables, wires etc etc....

Also , on Citation, the beverage center / snack cabinet is right where the huge hole in the fuselage.. Maybe a bomb ??:confused:

Unless that is where S&R cut into it to retrieve the victims.... Altho all they needed to do is recover them from the popped out windshield...

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/01/cessna-525-citationjet-cj1-n711bx-fatal.html
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One of us is upside down, Ben. I looked at the pic and I think the cabin top is toward us, which means the snack/beverage unit would be on the other side (forward of the main entrance). One of the windows on the co-pilots (up) side is an emergency exit. I think that may be what's open. That, or I'm completely upside down. In any event, RIP to both.

Jim
 
eman1200 said:
hard to listen to. he said something like "my altitude failed but my #2 is working". I'm guessing he meant a 2nd altimeter and not #2 engine? also lost other instruments, was last on radar at 20,500 in IMC. very sad.
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Sounded like he said his altitude hold failed?
 
Jim Rosenow said:
One of us is upside down, Ben. I looked at the pic and I think the cabin top is toward us, which means the snack/beverage unit would be on the other side (forward of the main entrance). One of the windows on the co-pilots (up) side is an emergency exit. I think that may be what's open. That, or I'm completely upside down. In any event, RIP to both.

Jim
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I think both of you are looking at the picture correctly but Ben thinks the galley is on the right side and you seem to think it's on the left.
 
In flight fire maybe that never got broadcast on the radio? Sad. RIP
 
Everskyward said:
I think both of you are looking at the picture correctly but Ben thinks the galley is on the right side and you seem to think it's on the left.
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On the CJ-4, the galley / snacks/ Blue Diamond almonds( Yummy) are right behind my co pilots seat.... I have made that reach numerous times...:redface:...:rolleyes:

Regardless... That is one ugly, ragged looking hole on the right side of the fuselage...:sad::confused:
 
N801BH said:
Also , on Citation, the beverage center / snack cabinet is right where the huge hole in the fuselage.. Maybe a bomb ??:confused:
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Yeah, not thinking it was a bomb.

Nor thinking wild speculation is helpful.
 
N801BH said:
On the CJ-4, the galley / snacks/ Blue Diamond almonds( Yummy) are right behind my co pilots seat.... I have made that reach numerous times...:redface:...:rolleyes:

Regardless... That is one ugly, ragged looking hole on the right side of the fuselage...:sad::confused:
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I certainly believe you about galley in the CJ-4. It's a different airplane tho, with the swept wing like the Sovereign and all. Maybe some other design differences also? Dunno...

Concur on the ugly, ragged looking hole...that would suck (double-entendre' intended).

Jim
 
The couple was a pretty big deal in this city and it's a big loss not just to their family and friends but for a lot of folks and organizations to which they were a benefactor.

RIP
 
It's difficult to say with any certainty, but in the photo of the fuselage it appears the wing center section box is what is resting on top of the remains.

Without knowing anything about the dimensions of the debris field, it looks like the aircraft broke up at altitude.
 
I checked out Beechtalk. There were a few typical know-it-all's criticizing the pilot.

It seems that the plane "came from together" mid air.

If the pilot lost control would it have not just impacted intact or could there been enough in air G-forces encountered to rip it apart?

If there was some sort of explosion or catastrophic structural failure, then what happened was obviously out of the pilots control.
 
jimson said:
I checked out Beechtalk. There were a few typical know-it-all's criticizing the pilot.

It seems that the plane "came from together" mid air.

If the pilot lost control would it have not just impacted intact or could there been enough in air G-forces encountered to rip it apart?

If there was some sort of explosion or catastrophic structural failure, then what happened was obviously out of the pilots control.
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Depends on how/when the pilot loses control.

Many IMC LOC accidents result in in-flight breakups. That is one of the big reasons for emphasis on unusual attitude and upset recovery in jet training. You can very easily exceed airframe limits trying to recover in a loss of control scenario.

I am no expert, but have had some accident investigation training. That debris looks like an airplane that 'came from together' in flight. Not an explosion. Which is consistent with the little information that the accident pilot was able to provide to ATC.
 
I'm no expert either but I have the following:

pilot having issues with something, maybe AP. in IMC. then other instruments fail. pilot calls mayday, needs to climb out of IMC. last known altitude was 20,200, then shortly after, no contact. with no obvious evidence of an explosion, I can only gather total loss of control or icing plus total loss of control. and of course, the plane came from together.

I know this is no joking matter, but the 'metal landing calculator' guy has to be jumping for joy that 'come from together' is hogging the spotlight now.
 
eman1200 said:
I know this is no joking matter, but the 'metal landing calculator' guy has to be jumping for joy that 'come from together' is hogging the spotlight now.
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LOL He was on the cutting edge of new legendary aviation vernacular.
 
eman1200 said:
I'm no expert either but I have the following:

pilot having issues with something, maybe AP. in IMC. then other instruments fail. pilot calls mayday, needs to climb out of IMC. last known altitude was 20,200, then shortly after, no contact. with no obvious evidence of an explosion, I can only gather total loss of control or icing plus total loss of control. and of course, the plane came from together.

I know this is no joking matter, but the 'metal landing calculator' guy has to be jumping for joy that 'come from together' is hogging the spotlight now.
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Yup. Flying is a delicate balance of keeping your act together so you don't come from together.
 
I was flying my 441 home to Atlanta from Detroit about 15 years ago when my attitude indicator went Tango Uniform. It controls the autopilot as well as the gyro for the radar, this was before XM weather etc. I hand flew two hours home mostly above the clouds, but I had to descend through a couple layers when I got to ATL. Holy crap, it's a lot harder than you think to fly partial panel, especially after two hours of hand flying. The failure happened to me in VFR weather, so I was pretty used to it by the time I got into the clouds. But, it wasn't any fun and asking for no gyros didn't get me any help, I guess in hindsight I could have said the E word. It all worked out fine, but don't underestimate the difficulties he may have faced that developed very quickly. RIP

Fearless Tower said:
Having listened to the tape, it's sounds like it started with an A/P that wouldn't hold altitude and then got worse from there. IOW, the problem was bigger than the autopilot. It is actually a good clip to listen to for anyone who flies a single pilot high performance aircraft as it highlights the challenge of trying to fly the airplane, troubleshoot and communicate with ATC by yourself.

This wasn't some brand new owner in a recently purchased jet. This guy actually had several years experience with that airplane.
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Was this 525 equipped with boob tubes or individual instruments?
 
I'm definitely not an expert...Not IR either, but my initial reaction was that loss of the autopilot was an emergency for this pilot which I would think should have been nothing more than an inconvenience. The multiple instrument failures seem unlikely compared to the more likely event that in his panic and possible unusual attitude the instruments just didn't make sense to him.

If I remember what I heard on the audio correctly , he was cleared for 22K and another aircraft was at that altitude and still IMC, so he never made VMC conditions...

RIP...:nonod:
 
FlySince9 said:
I'm definitely not an expert...Not IR either, but my initial reaction was that loss of the autopilot was an emergency for this pilot which I would think should have been nothing more than an inconvenience. The multiple instrument failures seem unlikely compared to the more likely event that in his panic and possible unusual attitude the instruments just didn't make sense to him.
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One thing to consider is that the more complex the aircraft is, the more complex the failure modes can be. You can also have what is referred to as cascading casualties, where one larger issue (like an electrical fire or short circuit in a critical piece of equipment) can result in multiple follow on failures that may not seem related if it catches you off guard. That is what makes single pilot jets a challenge IMO. When things start to not work properly, it puts you on the spot. You don't have a second pilot to help while you try to figure it all out.

Yes, it could be something as simple as a failed AI that distracts a pilot, but based on his communication, I think it was something less obvious than that. Knowing that this guy was not a novice and had some considerable experience in the airplane (which includes annual recurrent training), his communications sound like someone who is seeing things in the panel that aren't making sense and he's trying to sort it out while talking to ATC.

I could certainly be wrong, but in this case I do not believe this was a case of an automation dependent pilot who was not capable of hand flying the airplane.
 
RIP

My query is don't Citation's have seperate or double redundant systems? Do they have seperate vacuum and electrical steam instruments like a GA plane?

If the AI goes out, I would suspect vacuum and fly with the turn coordinator, airspeed, and DG/compass ordinarily if in IMC. I'm not second guessing the pilot, hell, I'm not even IR, just curious why an A/P malfunction or a partial panel could get so out of hand on such a sofisticated aircraft.
 
FlySince9 said:
I'm definitely not an expert...Not IR either, but my initial reaction was that loss of the autopilot was an emergency for this pilot which I would think should have been nothing more than an inconvenience. The multiple instrument failures seem unlikely compared to the more likely event that in his panic and possible unusual attitude the instruments just didn't make sense to him.
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I think Loss of Control Inflight is on the NTSB Most Wanted list...and with the recent guidance to look at hand flying skills on flight reviews, as well as an Office of the Inspector General report that came out earlier this month that basically states the FAA should find ways to ensure that airline pilots (among others) are able to hand fly airplanes, I think the FAA is starting to see strong potential that what you're alluding to is a widespread problem.

I think most pilots are able to identify that "something is wrong", but troubleshooting the automation to identify what that "something" is seems to be an ability that substantially fewer pilots have...especially when they're trying to hand fly the airplane at the same time.

Keep in mind, too, that fine motor skills are one of the first things to go away. Just to throw a number out there, at 300 knots TAS one degree of pitch equates to 500 ft/min climb or descent. Controlling pitch to one degree is definitely a fine motor skill. In the heat of battle, it isn't unusual to see pilots correcting altitude deviations with 5 degrees of pitch or more...next time their scan falls on the altimeter, they're 500 feet off the other direction (about 15 seconds), and they make an even larger correction to fix that.

Getting from point a to point b isn't the only thing jets can do really fast...they can make a benign flight ugly even faster.
 
I don't know this airplane but have a couple hundred hours in the C-500 series. My educated guess is the L and R hand sides are completely separate buses, so loss of one side shouldn't disable the other. There is also a standby instrument that isn't connected to either. There might even be two autopilots. Simple matter of pushing the right button or hitting the BRB (big red button) and god forbid fly it by hand and keep the wings level.

I looked at the pictures and based on my opinion is it looks like they but open the copilot side of airplane, based on relatively square looking cuts and the jagged edges.

Hate to trounce the dead, but it is a rich guy with ability to buy more airplane than he has experience with.
 
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