Citation 550 down at SVH

Regarding the Aztec. It will be interesting to learn all the circumstances surrounding their takeoff and landing while the events unfolded with the Citation. Maybe they were lifting off when the radio call came through, maybe not. Maybe it was the locally based N5236Y Aztec.
 
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Tail number could be blocked for tracking so you would not see.
 
Lindberg said:
According to Gryder, he knows everything about everything. You know what they say about the difference between theory and reality..... Of course Gryder does know a thing or two about crashing single engine planes that can't climb with the flaps down, so there's that. But it sounds like his theory isn't different from what some have postulated in this thread.
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Didn't see Dan on-site stealing parts of the wreckage.
 
So, 2 pilots, only one Type Rated,
and a student pilot.

If that isn't crazy enough,
You put your entire family on board.

My opinion of Mr Biffle has changed.
 
1. The airplane was certified for two pilots and was setup for more than 6 passengers, so it is required to have a CVR.
2. Having SIC required on a C500 pilot type does not stop the pilot from acquiring a SP exemption.
3. SP exemptions do not show up on the FAA pilot base search site.
4. YOU DO NOT NEED A SIC TYPE TO FLY SIC IN THE UNITED STATES.
 
MKERSW said:
So, 2 pilots, only one Type Rated,
and a student pilot.

If that isn't crazy enough,
You put your entire family on board.

My opinion of Mr Biffle has changed.
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And your basic premise is all wrong.
None of the three pilots were student pilots. Two of them lacked ratings, but they were pilots. But the PIC met all the requirements. The extra pilots officially passengers were just gravy.
 
Well, we don’t know why they turned around. And that particular failure allowed a successful turn around and return, they failed to make the runway.

Could have been fate, original condition worsening. It could have been lack of skill in that type of plane.

The original problem may have been lack of familiarity with the plane and/or that type of operation.

Pilot abilities are absolutely still on the table. So are ADM skills for that matter.
 
Lindberg said:
Lack of ratings might explain a failure to perform, but a lack of ratings didn't bring this plane down.
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Three pilots, all of which had a private or better. The PIC was an ATP with more ratings than most of us will ever have (including the Citation).
 
Rick A said:
According to Gryder's "Probable Cause" YouTube presentation last night, single pilot ops are a "waiver" on some Citations, including the accident aircraft. He showed the single pilot notation on his own paperwork. Unless the deceased pilot had recently added the single pilot waiver (not yet in the FAA register), the pilot likely didn't have one.

He also aired an audio recording taken off the unicom speaker inside the FBO of the radio announcements from the Citation. The voice was of the son (confirmed by people who know him) who was in the right seat, with his Father flying. The son announced they were returning to the airport with an engine issue, and warned an Aztec waiting to take off not to do so. Amazingly (and allegedly), the Aztec pilot took off, then landed shortly afterwards, with the Citation burning on the runway.

According to Gryder, he himself is very familiar with various models of Citations, and claims this particular model is under-powered on one engine, and will not hold altitude with gear and flaps deployed while loaded up approaching gross weight.

Said the turn around was crazy, as climbing on runway heading to 3 or 4 thousand feet, engaging the autopilot, declaring an emergency, and landing at Charlotte was in his opinion the only safe solution. Compared the total mileage flown while turning around with the mileage needed to fly to Charlotte, and it was a little longer, but very comparable.
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You lost me at “according to Gryder”.
 
KE5BM said:
Just a thought...given that the PIC was a Delta Airlines Captain, I'm willing to bet he was more than capable of handling a Citation. Regardless of all this bickering about SIC.
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Not necessarily.

And I can’t imagine Gregg taking the left seat with an inexperienced SIC (by crew standards) in the right seat while a retired airline captain sits in the back with his family. If I’m wrong so be it.
 
KE5BM said:
Just a thought...given that the PIC was a Delta Airlines Captain, I'm willing to bet he was more than capable of handling a Citation. Regardless of all this bickering about SIC.
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A 20,000+ hour airline pilot gear up’d a mooney at my home field a coupl’a years ago.
 
Plano Pilot said:
1. The airplane was certified for two pilots and was setup for more than 6 passengers, so it is required to have a CVR.
2. Having SIC required on a C500 pilot type does not stop the pilot from acquiring a SP exemption.
3. SP exemptions do not show up on the FAA pilot base search site.
4. YOU DO NOT NEED A SIC TYPE TO FLY SIC IN THE UNITED STATES.
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Re #3:

But if one received an exemption would the "SIC required" disappear from their online certificate info?

That is what Gryder showed in his video. His online certificate does not state "SIC required"(he showed his paper exemption certificate from Flight Safety) - and Dutton's does.

(guess - he tested as single pilot in the 501/551 which are single pilot certified, and therefore no limitation was placed on his certificate. But he needed the waiver for the 550 because he never tested in it with a SIC or didn't at all)

I am not arguing, just trying to understand if that matters, if it means Dutton didn't have an exemption, or if he is getting something incorrect.
 
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eman1200 said:
A 20,000+ hour airline pilot gear up’d a mooney at my home field a coupl’a years ago.
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Similar event at my field. Very experienced airline Captain joined a long existing Mooney partnership. Had a check out flight, and soon after departed on a long cross country. Upon landing, he flaired it high and dropped it in from around 10' to 15'. Didn't total it, but did a lot of damage that took a few months to repair before it was flown back to home base.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Depends on your definition of short, I guess.
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It’s well beyond PPL—IR-multi and ability to fog a mirror:

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (e)of this section, no person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.

(iv) Flight manual.

(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraftor in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes—

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

(iii) Crew resource management training.
 
skyking3286 said:
Sort of a rabbit hole here about SIC and type. The crash wasn't due the wrong person sitting in the right seat. It was a crippled airplane or pilot, basic aerodynamics and power. At some point, all planes fly the same. Keep the wind over the wings and high enough to glide to the runway. If the plane was unable to do that, having someone sitting next to the PIC doesn't matter one bit.
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So you’ve solved it! You should let the NTSB know.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Re #3:

But if one received an exemption would the "SIC required" disappear from their online certificate info?

That is what Gryder showed in his video. His online certificate does not state "SIC required"(he showed his paper exemption certificate from Flight Safety) - and Dutton's does.

(guess - he tested as single pilot in the 501/551 which are single pilot certified, and therefore no limitation was placed on his certificate. But he needed the waiver for the 550 because he never tested in it with a SIC or didn't at all)

I am not arguing, just trying to understand if that matters, if it means Dutton didn't have an exemption, or if he is getting something incorrect.
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There is a lot of confusion on the CE-500 type on the SIC required limitation, and it has changed over the years. There was a discussion a couple of years ago on this. https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...quire-a-single-pilot-exemption-waiver.142479/

I was told that the large training centers do not remove the SIC limitation, on the pilot certificate, when a pilot gets an SP exemption. FYI, the exemption is only good for one year.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Closer to HKY, yes, but there's more terrain to avoid as you go West. KHKY gets into the foothills, so you might have trouble if you can't maintain altitude comfortably.
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The elevation doesn't really change much, even for flying the ILS to 24. But, yeah, if they couldn't maintain altitude (which would be surprising) they only had one real option.
 
mryan75 said:
It’s well beyond PPL—IR-multi and ability to fog a mirror:

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (e)of this section, no person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.

(iv) Flight manual.

(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraftor in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes—

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

(iii) Crew resource management training.
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As little as two hours’ worth of effort vs a two week initial course. It’s fogging a mirror.
 
I’ve been offered these sorts of endorsements AND AIRPLANE KEYS for all sorts of stuff JUST BECAUSE I have type ratings and carrier landings…

In the Navy, we all gave ourselves “special instrument” ratings (allowing a legal zero/zero takeoff) for our resumes. What a special really meant was while legal, you should know better… effectively making it useless.

Smelling what I’m stepping in here?
 
StraightnLevel said:
Closer to HKY, yes, but there's more terrain to avoid as you go West. KHKY gets into the foothills, so you might have trouble if you can't maintain altitude comfortably.
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Also, HKY has Class A Fire & Rescue capabilities, which I believe are only available when a commercial scheduled airliner is landing or taking off. Choosing CLT as the go to airport would likely have Fire and Rescue availability 24/7/360.
 
Rick A said:
Also, HKY has Class A Fire & Rescue capabilities, which I believe are only available when a commercial scheduled airliner is landing or taking off. Choosing CLT as the go to airport would likely have Fire and Rescue availability 24/7/360.
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Are there any remaining scheduled commercial flights at HKY? I thought they were down to GA only.....?
 
I say the rain did it. Just my opinion, but have seen a lot of shortcuts when it is raining.

First car delivered their passengers to the plane, then drove to the right side, unlatched the cargo hatch, and deposited their load.

Meanwhile, the second car arrives, and deposited their passenger. First driver sees the second, closes the hatch, unlatched, to keep rain out, and drives away.

Second driver also loads his cargo, and leaves the hatch as found, unlatched.

When the PIC finishes programming all the neat automation, it is raining harder, he had done his walkaround when he arrived, so he fires up the turbines, and starts his departure check lists.

The hatch remains closed until the nose is raised for takeoff, and the airflow is at an upward angle. Merely opening is not dangerous initially, but as the contents fly out, the hungry engine has a feast, and quits.

Without rain falling, the drivers most likely would have left the cover open until the last bag was stowed, then closed, latched and locked it.

If they did not close and secure it, the PIC would have seen it.

I do not expect the CVR will have any finger pointing about who left the cover unlatched, only dealing with the challenges of a failed engine at very low altitude and airspeed.
 
geezer said:
I say the rain did it. Just my opinion, but have seen a lot of shortcuts when it is raining.

First car delivered their passengers to the plane, then drove to the right side, unlatched the cargo hatch, and deposited their load.

Meanwhile, the second car arrives, and deposited their passenger. First driver sees the second, closes the hatch, unlatched, to keep rain out, and drives away.

Second driver also loads his cargo, and leaves the hatch as found, unlatched.

When the PIC finishes programming all the neat automation, it is raining harder, he had done his walkaround when he arrived, so he fires up the turbines, and starts his departure check lists.

The hatch remains closed until the nose is raised for takeoff, and the airflow is at an upward angle. Merely opening is not dangerous initially, but as the contents fly out, the hungry engine has a feast, and quits.

Without rain falling, the drivers most likely would have left the cover open until the last bag was stowed, then closed, latched and locked it.

If they did not close and secure it, the PIC would have seen it.

I do not expect the CVR will have any finger pointing about who left the cover unlatched, only dealing with the challenges of a failed engine at very low altitude and airspeed.
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So what about the annunciation panel with the door warning light illuminated?
 
I didn’t think it was raining(or drizzle) when they took off. I thought the drizzle moved in soon afterwards.
 
I think that post is a hypothetical scenario based on past observations, not what actually happened. And, it assumes the nose baggage door is missing.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Are there any remaining scheduled commercial flights at HKY? I thought they were down to GA only.....?
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Don't know. I spoke with a retired Control Tower Operator (for our tower) today and asked him about what can be expected regarding emergencies at Class A Fire and Rescue rated airports.

He said our Class Delta airport, with the Tower operated between 6:00am and 12:00 midnight daily, is only required to have Fire and Rescue staffed and ready to roll for the airlines (in our case, 2 flights per week).

However, a number of airport employees (electrician, building and grounds maintenance, vehicle mechanics, snow plowing, runway checks, etc.) are also trained and certified fire fighters. Therefore, some of them (not sure how many) need to be present, sober, and on duty with emergency equipment close on hand whenever the airline (Breeze Air) is scheduled in and out.

Apparently smaller non-airline type aircraft will receive emergency response when available, but no guaranty.
 
That downwind was 0.3nm from the runway. It widened a little into a teardrop for the 180 base to final, but even at its apex, that turn never got much more than 0.6nm from the centerline.
 
Rick A said:
Don't know. I spoke with a retired Control Tower Operator (for our tower) today and asked him about what can be expected regarding emergencies at Class A Fire and Rescue rated airports.

He said our Class Delta airport, with the Tower operated between 6:00am and 12:00 midnight daily, is only required to have Fire and Rescue staffed and ready to roll for the airlines (in our case, 2 flights per week).

However, a number of airport employees (electrician, building and grounds maintenance, vehicle mechanics, snow plowing, runway checks, etc.) are also trained and certified fire fighters. Therefore, some of them (not sure how many) need to be present, sober, and on duty with emergency equipment close on hand whenever the airline (Breeze Air) is scheduled in and out.

Apparently smaller non-airline type aircraft will receive emergency response when available, but no guaranty.
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That is normal at many commercial airports with limited service. ARFF response is only required 15 minutes before and after a scheduled air carrier operation, aka takeoff or landing. Many airports train and utilize Operations and/or Maintenance staff as ARFF firefighters. They only must staff the equipment during the aforementioned times. The rest of the day they are performing other job functions on the airport, although can still respond as needed. They just can't guarantee the 3 minute response time Part 139 requires.

Index A and even Index B rated ARFF can be accomplished by a single firefighter in a single truck. C requires minimum two trucks, which theoretically can be staffed by one person per truck.
 
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