Citation 550 down at SVH

Loss of airspeed indicators took a Air France A330 out… and LOTS of others, including a B2 bomber…

HIGHLY doubtful they’ve ever flown that jet pure seat of the pants..

Type ratings are systems and procedures checkouts, not how to fly learning evolutions.

Last night I had a VERY SHARP student for an emergency procedures sortie, T-6 simulator. Bored with the routine syllabus I failed EVERYTHING electrical. Not one instrument (standby airspeed and standby altimeter, vmc). He did great. No gear down indications, nothing. He just had to FLY the thing back. No real specific procedure, in fact regular procedures became his friend…

Not part of the syllabus. It’s probably the only time he’ll EVER have that sort of training… I can about guarantee these guys have never had that sort of thing. Something simple like air data malfunctions can absolutely be devastating.
 
Apparently Mrs. Biffle texted her mother "we're in trouble" shortly before the crash.

Greg was certified multi-engine but not type certified for this plane. Dennis was type rated for this craft. His son Jack was also on board, also a private pilot, but not rated for this type of craft. Craig Wadsworth, also onboard, was multi-engine rated, and type rated on B-17 and DC-3, but not this Cessna.

My best guess is Dennis was pilot flying, as he was type certified, and Craig was acting as SIC.

They clipped two fences and made groundfall just short of the runway, so they *almost* made it.
 
MFE said:
Apparently Mrs. Biffle texted her mother "we're in trouble" shortly before the crash.

Greg was certified multi-engine but not type certified for this plane. Dennis was type rated for this craft. His son Jack was also on board, also a private pilot, but not rated for this type of craft. Craig Wadsworth, also onboard, was multi-engine rated, and type rated on B-17 and DC-3, but not this Cessna.

My best guess is Dennis was pilot flying, as he was type certified, and Craig was acting as SIC.

They clipped two fences and made groundfall just short of the runway, so they *almost* made it.
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I’m seeing that Dennis had an SIC Requirement on his CE500 type. His son didn’t have his multi, so couldn’t be an SIC.
 
AV8R_87 said:
My logic:
Wife is able to text, so the plane isn't going through a ride wild enough to prevent her from using the phone. That significantly reduces the likelihood of a control failure that would cause pitch oscillations matching the observed altitude data. Which in turn points to a dual air data issue, which is most likely to be caused by pitot covers left on (if they were iced-up, I'd expect very little change).
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What does pitot covers being left on have to do with altitude reporting? Do the pitot covers also cover the static ports?
 
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eman1200 said:
Flight aware has this so I’m pretty sure they filed


GENOD KYYUU LUBBR3
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They squawked 1200 the entire time. If they picked up IFR clearance, they would have a different code.
 
Hmmm… the ONLY person typed had a SIC requirement, but no SIC or other PIC typed folks onboard?

Not causal, but interesting.

While the Citation is fairly straight winged, it’s still a jet, with all the problems that come with a jet, which are usually things happen MUCH faster, and behind the power curve is MUCH faster.

You get into trouble long before it becomes evident, and when it does become evident not unusual for there then be NOTHING you can do about it.
 
MFE said:
Apparently Mrs. Biffle texted her mother "we're in trouble" shortly before the crash.

Greg was certified multi-engine but not type certified for this plane. Dennis was type rated for this craft. His son Jack was also on board, also a private pilot, but not rated for this type of craft. Craig Wadsworth, also onboard, was multi-engine rated, and type rated on B-17 and DC-3, but not this Cessna.

My best guess is Dennis was pilot flying, as he was type certified, and Craig was acting as SIC.

They clipped two fences and made groundfall just short of the runway, so they *almost* made it.
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I mentioned earlier that the terrain rises as you approach the threshold. If they were flying low to stay clear of murk that could have caught them out.
I don't there's a CVR in that plane; I'm sure we'll know shortly.
 
Tools said:
Hmmm… the ONLY person typed had a SIC requirement, but no SIC or other PIC typed folks onboard?

Not causal, but interesting.

While the Citation is fairly straight winged, it’s still a jet, with all the problems that come with a jet, which are usually things happen MUCH faster, and behind the power curve is MUCH faster.

You get into trouble long before it becomes evident, and when it does become evident not unusual for there then be NOTHING you can do about it.
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I believe on a single pilot jet you don’t need a type rated SIC. I may be wrong.
 
Tools said:
Hmmm… the ONLY person typed had a SIC requirement, but no SIC or other PIC typed folks onboard?

Not causal, but interesting.

While the Citation is fairly straight winged, it’s still a jet, with all the problems that come with a jet, which are usually things happen MUCH faster, and behind the power curve is MUCH faster.

You get into trouble long before it becomes evident, and when it does become evident not unusual for there then be NOTHING you can do about it.
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One doesn’t need an SIC type on their certificate to act as SIC in a 2 pilot aircraft as long as it’s operated domestically.

The pilot acting as SIC does need a logbook endorsement 14 CFR Part 61.55.
 
MountainDude said:
They squawked 1200 the entire time. If they picked up IFR clearance, they would have a different code.
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I hope this isn't the case, but one reasonable possibility is they did rush and forget to put in the squawk and maybe forgot other steps, as have been mentioned (pitot cover, baggage latches, etc.).

I've personally rushed and forgot to enter my squawk when picking up IFR over the phone (and felt like an idiot).
 
RyanB said:
I’m seeing that Dennis had an SIC Requirement on his CE500 type. His son didn’t have his multi, so couldn’t be an SIC.
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That's why I'm surmising Craig was SIC
 
So what, you loose airspeed, I’m sure they had GPS. I would use ground speed as a proxy, you should know what the winds are, so can make a pretty good estimate of your airspeed. No way should they have reacted the way they did for a lack of airspeed.
 
Tools said:
Loss of airspeed indicators took a Air France A330 out… and LOTS of others, including a B2 bomber…

HIGHLY doubtful they’ve ever flown that jet pure seat of the pants..
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I would argue that “loss of airspeed” and “seat of the pants” are two very different things at this level. Pitch + Power still equals Performance, and at this point no speculation exists that either of those was unavailable.

Loss of airspeed wasn’t the culprit for Air France. It was the initial malfunction, but mishandling of pitch and power were what caused the crash.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
So what, you loose airspeed, I’m sure they had GPS. I would use ground speed as a proxy, you should know what the winds are, so can make a pretty good estimate of your airspeed. No way should they have reacted the way they did for a lack of airspeed.
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Honest question, if you lost your airspeed indication, would you continue into the clouds with the GPS method?
 
Todd82 said:
Surface winds at the time were effectively negligible. Varied from calm to 3kt at a generally northerly direction so 10 vs 28 is a moot point, especially if you just need to get her on the ground ASAP.
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Yeah, pulled METARS from SHV instead of SVH.
 
I was fortunately and unfortunately wrong. Only one plot when they said the pilots were Dennis and Jack, we assumed a different jack who was often a FO on these citations. It was Jack, the son of Dennis. Pretty much two families wiped out in the trajetdy.
 
It’s reported that the pilot was a retired Delta Air Lines CA. USAF also. If true, checklist discipline and cross checking airspeed during the takeoff roll should be deeply ingrained.
 
MauleSkinner said:
One more vote against minimally-qualified SICs?
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I disagree. Young pilots have to learn somewhere.
Can't have 15K hour flight crews in every aircraft.
I've heard before Colgan it wasn't unusual to have Regional 400 TT FO's.
 
TCABM said:
Medical incapacitation is plausible.
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Could very well be, but my thinking is that the "we're in trouble" text message would have been different in that circumstance.
At least the CVR should clarify what happened, assuming it survived.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Here are my thoughts/observations, looking at the adsb exchange track:

- Something decidedly fishy happens here (see image below), altitude jumps from 1800 to 3800 in the span of 10 seconds. That's 12 thousand feet per minute. Yes, that doesn't pass the sniff test. That altitude stays (relatively) constant for another minute and 20 seconds, then it gradually drips to about 2200 by the time they complete their 180 back to the airport. That's not an ADS-B glitch. The air data computers were coming up with that altitude value, something was off with the air data system.
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I'm betting the ADS-B reporting of "1875 ft" for half a minute is erroneous. I'm guessing they were climbing during that whole time.

AV8R_87 said:
- Based on the altitude reported for the first point on the track (925) and the field elevation (968), reported altitudes are pretty close to what should be MSL. If those are real MSL altitudes, they were flying at 2-300 ft AGL on downwind. That also doesn't pass the sniff test.
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Don't forget to correct for non-standard altimeter setting of 30.19. They were probably 500 AGL once they were midfield.

AV8R_87 said:
- ...stall on final.
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That's my guess.

AV8R_87 said:
- After they get established on final (so this is not a base to final stall/spin), their altitude jumps form 1050 ft (pretty much clipping treetops, if real, which I doubt) to 1500 ft in the span of 7 seconds. That's >4000 fpm on final. Also doesn't pass the sniff test.
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Zoom in a little closer. You might have picked up the outbound altitude reading.

AV8R_87 said:
- All this smells (to me) of a rushed take-off in questionable conditions.
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VFR departure into VMC conditions that turned into IMC real quick to the west of the field. Then oops, lets go back to the airport.

Edit: Yes they filed an IFR plan. This VFR scenario doesn’t mean there wasn’t a serious problem, but it does look like they were self navigating back to the airport attempting VFR. The weather changed quickly after they landed.
 
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Doc Holliday said:
One doesn’t need an SIC type on their certificate to act as SIC in a 2 pilot aircraft as long as it’s operated domestically.

The pilot acting as SIC does need a logbook endorsement 14 CFR Part 61.55.
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Their destination was the Bahamas.
 
Doc Holliday said:
See post #11. They were headed to Florida. LUBBR3 is the arrival to Sarasota

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Cathy Grossu told People that the crew was headed to the Bahamas for a birthday trip. The plane was set to fly to Sarasota, Florida, before heading to the island nation. "To think that they would be killed on a birthday trip, that was just such a fun time for the family," Grossu added.

1 day ago · Biffle and his family were headed to Sarasota and later to the Bahamas, according to flight logsCredit: Instagram/cristinagbiffle. In a video ...
 
Facts:
1. Weather was marginal at best.
2. Four people on board were certified pilots.
3. Greg's wife was able to text that they were in trouble.
4. All succumb to the incident.

We will find out what happened. Enough data exists to put the pieces together. But damn, this one sucks.
 
bonefishpete said:
Cathy Grossu told People that the crew was headed to the Bahamas for a birthday trip. The plane was set to fly to Sarasota, Florida, before heading to the island nation. "To think that they would be killed on a birthday trip, that was just such a fun time for the family," Grossu added.
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I'm not sure why the Bahamas has anything to do with this. :dunno:
 
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