Cirrus vs. Mooney - BRS?

MountainDude

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MountainDude
I think the main reason for Cirrus' success over the last 10 years has been the BRS.
People claim that newest Mooneys have a better performance than Cirrus, but the sales are poor. Is it just the BRS?
 
I think the main reason for Cirrus' success over the last 10 years has been the BRS.
People claim that newest Mooneys have a better performance than Cirrus, but the sales are poor. Is it just the BRS?

The chute is just a small part of it. Sit in both; and after your spouse sits next to, recall that you need to get something from the hangar.
Next try flying with a broad shoulder/heavy friend and see which one you feel really close too...

The list goes on and on.

Tim
 
The chute is just a small part of it. Sit in both; and after your spouse sits next to, recall that you need to get something from the hangar.
Next try flying with a broad shoulder/heavy friend and see which one you feel really close too...

The list goes on and on.

Tim
The newest Mooneys do have 2 doors. Don't think there was any other width changes though.
 
Cirrus markets the hell out of their product and clearly does a good job. I can’t really say the same for Mooney.
 
It's not just the chute. It's a real product with a solid support team, an immensely comfortable cabin, real capabilities, a well integrated avionics, and on and on

The Mooney is fine if you enjoy having your shoulders squeezed, half baked avionics integration, old school push pull knobs, pathetic useful, having to decide between AC *OR* known ice, and you're a spreadsheet junkie who enjoys bragging to people that you can squeeze a few knots out over a Cirrus at 25,000 with less fuel burn

The hundreds sold vs *7* are a sign. And it's not just marketing. I've yet to have anyone sit in the 22 I fly and not fall in love, this includes people who've flown Mooney, 210, etc, they all agree that all around it's the ultimate current single engine piston offered

Not a knock on Mooney, the platform designed in the 1950s proved very successful in squeezing out the most speed for the least fuel burn.. but most buyers today also want comfort. The backseat of the Cirrus is palatial
 
It's not just the chute. And it's not just marketing. I've yet to have anyone sit in the 22 I fly and not fall in love, this includes people who've flown Mooney, 210, etc, they all agree that all around it's the ultimate current single engine piston offered

I've owned four Mooneys and one Cirrus (in addition to a number of other airplanes). I sold the SR22 after 4 months. Give me a Mooney any day.
 
It's not just the chute.

Airplanes are generally discretionary purchases. And therefore also tend to be emotional purchases. Perception plays a large part in that.

Compared to Mooney or Textron Beechcraft, the Cirrus product, marketing, presentation, flying experience and other elements hit more hot buttons for more of the buying cohort in the minuscule "nearly one million $ new piston single airplane" space. That's all there is to it. But Cirrus has worked very hard to achieve it, and they should get full marks for that.
 
The hundreds sold vs *7* are a sign. And it's not just marketing. I've yet to have anyone sit in the 22 I fly and not fall in love, this includes people who've flown Mooney, 210, etc, they all agree that all around it's the ultimate current single engine piston offered

The Cirrus is nice, but this is the ultimate piston Single. Carries more, goes farther, is faster, flies higher (practically with pressurization), and is a lot quieter. Well, perhaps not fair comparison], it is a good bit more expensive than a 22. But it is a piston single ;-). I like the Mooney, but is tight with pax. The 22 is all around a great plane though. I had a turbo FIKI.

1.jpg
 
The Cirrus is nice, but this is the ultimate piston Single. Carries more, goes farther, is faster, flies higher (practically with pressurization), and is a lot quieter. Well, perhaps not fair comparison], it is a good bit more expensive than a 22. But it is a piston single ;-). I like the Mooney, but is tight with pax. The 22 is all around a great plane though. I had a turbo FIKI.

View attachment 74596

Lovely airplane, if one can squeeze into the front seat. ;)

But I will note that every year the turbine Meridian version of this airframe significantly outsells the piston version, despite the much higher entry price and operating costs of the P&W PT6 (last year almost 3:1 at 56 vs 20).

Combine that data point with Daher's 50 TBMs, Cirrus' 63 jets and Cessna's 34 M2s and it's not difficult to see where personal GA is headed.
 
I have to agree about the comments about Cirrus. Very comfortable cabin. I've flown a Mooney for the last year, and yesterday spent a morning flying kids around in a 172 for EAA Young Eagles. Although it's slower, I was so much more comfortable in the 172 and if the cost was the same, I'd rather fly the 172.
 
Tantalum has it right. The Cirrus is a really nice package. Two doors, wide cabin and side sticks make for a large open space for the front two seats; large for a four-seater plane. Passengers love not having the yoke in front of them. Luggage is easier to load on a Cirrus than a Mooney as well. Yes, Mooney has two doors now, but you have to buy new or nearly new to get it, and that means big bucks. One could go buy an 18 year old Cirrus and still get two doors.

I would be happy flying a Mooney, but my passengers would not be as happy. Happy passengers means I get to fly more. :cool: I like flying more. :D

I've owned four Mooneys and one Cirrus (in addition to a number of other airplanes). I sold the SR22 after 4 months. Give me a Mooney any day.

Opinions vary, so it's great we have options to choose from.
 
But I will note that every year the turbine Meridian version of this airframe significantly outsells the piston version, despite the much higher entry price and operating costs of the P&W PT6 (last year almost 3:1 at 56 vs 20).

Combine that data point with Daher's 50 TBMs, Cirrus' 63 jets and Cessna's 34 M2s and it's not difficult to see where personal GA is headed.

And they said runaway income inequality doesn't have an upside.... :rolleyes::D
 
I still say the Cirrus is the best all-around plane. What did you dislike about the Cirrus?

Lots of things. The seats were the most uncomfortable of any GA airplane I've ever been in and the four point harnesses rubbed the heck out of my neck. I simply didn't want to fly it, it was so uncomfortable. In the four months I owned it I had to replace the started adaptor, repair a fuel tank leak and replace the flap motor (or flap motor relay, I don't recall). This was an airframe that had less than 500 hours since new. If you wanted to put air in the tires, it took 45 minutes.
 
If you wanted to put air in the tires, it took 45 minutes.
Crazy, in about 300 hrs in the last two years I haven't had to cancel any flights or have any issues.. shoulder harness used to bother my wife too though
 
I personally wouldn’t like the throttle/RPM combo control, I like to be able to control the engine settings. Their interior looks nice but so does the new Mooney...guess it depends on your affection for the side stick.


Tom
 
The Mooney is fine if you enjoy having your shoulders squeezed, half baked avionics integration, old school push pull knobs, pathetic useful, having to decide between AC *OR* known ice, and you're a spreadsheet junkie who enjoys bragging to people that you can squeeze a few knots out over a Cirrus at 25,000 with less fuel burn

Found 'im.

I've owned four Mooneys and one Cirrus (in addition to a number of other airplanes). I sold the SR22 after 4 months. Give me a Mooney any day.


As much grief as I give people about flying the Cirrus, it was more to do with Cirrus' initial "training" which was, "chute first, ask questions later." They have since changed that stance over the past few years.

If it wasn't for routinely going into grass fields, and not having a desire to put Grey Poupon on my sandwiches, drinking Zima, and tying sweaters around my neck like a scarf I'd probably be interested in one. But....6Y9.
 
I am going to disagree and say the Chute must play a major role as that Cessna TTX thingy went tits up and appeared to look and feel like a Cirrus on the inside.
 
Lots of things. The seats were the most uncomfortable of any GA airplane I've ever been in and the four point harnesses rubbed the heck out of my neck. I simply didn't want to fly it, it was so uncomfortable. In the four months I owned it I had to replace the started adaptor, repair a fuel tank leak and replace the flap motor (or flap motor relay, I don't recall). This was an airframe that had less than 500 hours since new. If you wanted to put air in the tires, it took 45 minutes.

The maintenance woes sounds like you had a lemon. Like Tantalum one that I flew for 4.5 years had very few problems. ALT1 died, but that was an easy replacement. One cylinder was replaced from a mechanic saying it was cracked. Sending it out for work we found it wasn't.

I found the four point harness in the Baron a far bigger pain. It kept rubbing my neck. I had to make sure I wore a collared shirt and to get the collar over the strap on each side. Didn't have that issue in the SR22.

Crazy, in about 300 hrs in the last two years I haven't had to cancel any flights or have any issues.. shoulder harness used to bother my wife too though

The kids didn't like them, but that was because they wanted to sleep. I find them annoying when I'm doing an Angel Flight mission and need to strap in a car seat. Arrrrrrgh!

I personally wouldn’t like the throttle/RPM combo control, I like to be able to control the engine settings. Their interior looks nice but so does the new Mooney...guess it depends on your affection for the side stick.

Tom

Tamarack Aerospace makes a throttle quadrant upgrade with a blue knob.

The side stick really opens the space in front of the two front seats. Passengers really love it. Many also worry that if they touch the yoke the plane is going to fall out of the sky.

I like it as it opens up the space. Then I don't have a yoke that hits my lap, or more importantly the kneeboard or my iPad on my lap. I'm fine with either a side stick or yoke for flying the plane. In cruise with the autopilot on it's nice not having a yoke in front of me.
 
drinking Zima
Leave it to the non Cirrus folks to always throw the first punches. Jealousy is a funny thing. Funny, I must have missed it but the Cirrus tent at Osh wasn't passing out Zima

You guys enjoy your 1950's relics
 
Leave it to the non Cirrus folks to always throw the first punches. Jealousy is a funny thing. Funny, I must have missed it but the Cirrus tent at Osh wasn't passing out Zima

You guys enjoy your 1950's relics

You haven't been to any of the fly-ins to know all the jokes. The Zima thing was STARTED by a Cirrus guy.

Not sure why you Cirrus guys get so defensive. You're getting as bad as the iHeads. :D
 
that Cessna TTX thingy
Cessna loves killing single engine planes unless it's a 172 trainer.. they only care about the sky courier, Denali, and the turbine market as a whole. I mean just look at the Bonanza, a very capable plane and they're barely selling any. I think Cessna is largely to blame for that
 
At least we don't have a 'Genius Bar' - the **** gives me hives

Well they call it that, because anyone who works there is considered a genius compared to the people that actually buy apple products.

Let's see....all I need to do is throw in a comment about EV's and I hit the who can I **** off trifecta today. :rofl:
 
comment about EV's
I will agree with you there.. especially since I'm convinced they're more damaging to the environment between the strip mining for lithium and the eventual destruction of the batteries. Nevermind charging them
 
Has cirrus announced it's electric version with Apple PlanePlay(TM) installed yet? If they partner with Tesla for the autopilot they can have it pull the chute for you.
 
Well they call it that, because anyone who works there is considered a genius compared to the people that actually buy apple products.

Let's see....all I need to do is throw in a comment about EV's and I hit the who can I **** off trifecta today. :rofl:

I'm disappointed. You used to make this look so, so... effortless. To see how the offensive sausage is made... it's just sad. :)
 
I'm disappointed. You used to make this look so, so... effortless. To see how the offensive sausage is made... it's just sad. :)

I'm till recovering from crossing 7 time zones and going 43 hours with no sleep.
 
You can't be a victim when you embrace it so well!
 
Cessna loves killing single engine planes unless it's a 172 trainer.. they only care about the sky courier, Denali, and the turbine market as a whole. I mean just look at the Bonanza, a very capable plane and they're barely selling any. I think Cessna is largely to blame for that

Nope. Even before Textron bought them, Bonanza sales sucked.

Tim
 
I am going to disagree and say the Chute must play a major role as that Cessna TTX thingy went tits up and appeared to look and feel like a Cirrus on the inside.

The chute is just one thing that differentiates Cirrus. To say the chute "must play a major role" overlooks all the other things that Cirrus has done to appeal to their high-net-worth and (as a result) often very demanding target cohort.

Everything from continually improving the product with each "Gen", brilliant marketing (Cirrus Life), creating a unique customer delivery experience, as well as tackling head on and fixing the abysmal fatal accident safety record circa 2010 (something that could have easily sunk a lesser company). I am not the greatest fan of the Cirrus piston airplanes (however, I do lust after that jet!), but as someone who has built a number of businesses from scratch I really admire the management and leadership of that company.

The TTx was an "orphan" in the Cessna line up right from the beginning. Completely incongruent with the entire Cessna piston aircraft line up. For any Cessna owner wanting to upgrade, the environment in a TTx must have seemed completely alien and unfamiliar, as would many of the POH procedures and such. Don't underestimate how important that is - look at the efforts Cirrus has gone through to make their jet cockpit, systems and other characteristics as familiar and easy a transition as possible for its SR22 customers.

I sometimes wonder if Textron shouldn't have tried to sell the TTx as a Beech Bonanza replacement product instead.

Cessna loves killing single engine planes unless it's a 172 trainer.. they only care about the sky courier, Denali, and the turbine market as a whole. I mean just look at the Bonanza, a very capable plane and they're barely selling any. I think Cessna is largely to blame for that

The Bonanza is an ancient plane that went through the "continuous improvement" part of its life cycle in the 1960s and 1970s. Its time has passed, and there is no amount of "heavy promotion" by Textron that is going to materially change Bonanza sales numbers in a global piston aircraft market that moves less than 1000 units total, annually.

Textron is running a business, and the single most important measure of business success is margin in excess of your cost of capital. Like Warren Buffett's Berkshire, Textron has many more options to re-invest its capital in higher margin businesses and products than Cirrus, Mooney, Piper and every other remaining piston aircraft maker out there. It doesn't have to produce piston airplanes.

Per my post #10 on this thread, the whole private GA market, including Cirrus, has been moving inexorably upscale for many years now. Daher-Socata was early to read the future correctly, and completely dumped the piston market years ago to focus on producing the turboprop TBM for private owners. Don't expect Textron to run a charity.
 
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Don't expect Textron to run a charity
I don't and nor should anybody. That's the beauty of capitalism. But I do believe there is demand that exists for single engine aircraft that cost less than $1M, and obvious indicators that buyers are tired of the "old" products and hungry for something new, hence Cirrus' success.. hell I feel like most people think ill of Cirrus, yet they're the sales leader right now in single engine sales. Who knows, maybe with the Jet we'll see Cirrus eventually abandon the piston GA market as well, frankly I'm surprised they still offer an SR20
 
I don't and nor should anybody. That's the beauty of capitalism. But I do believe there is demand that exists for single engine aircraft that cost less than $1M, and obvious indicators that buyers are tired of the "old" products and hungry for something new, hence Cirrus' success.. hell I feel like most people think ill of Cirrus, yet they're the sales leader right now in single engine sales. Who knows, maybe with the Jet we'll see Cirrus eventually abandon the piston GA market as well, frankly I'm surprised they still offer an SR20

I think the comparisons of sales of piston Malibus vs turboprop Meridians, Cirrus SR20s vs SR22s, the Daher-Socata example and other indicators makes it clear where this market has been going, and will likely continue. Your comment about the SR20 is appropriate. Cirrus has seen a bounce in sales of the SR20 with the Lycoming engine version, but it will have to keep that up for the SR20 to survive as Cirrus moves upmarket imo.

Private GA is a very low volume business now, and each market segment has little room for more than at most a couple of suppliers. Cessna and Piper rule the entry level piston trainer market, Piper and Daher own the private turboprop market, and Cirrus has captured the high end piston segment in between those, with Mooney making a valiant effort to stay alive.

Cirrus knows the high-end piston market is barely growing, and even it may never again sell as many piston airplanes in a year as it did in 2007. The jet is a logical and really well conceived product to address future growth of the company. Piper and a few others tried to create a personal jet product starting back in the late 1990s (OSH 2000 had three or four personal jet prototypes on display as I recall). Cirrus is the only company that saw it through. Once again, you have to give them credit for a really well executed business plan and final product offering.

I have to admit I find it rather ironic the Chinese government owns a US company flogging exclusive luxury flying baubles to wealthy Americans. Not exactly what Mao intended with "the great leap forward", LOL. Who could have imagined...
 
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