Cirrus transition training tips

genna

genna

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Starting Cirrus transition training on Avidyne G2 GTS with a CSIP instructor. Any pointers? Other than the usual AoA and pull the chute tips.

Most of my experience is with C172 and DA40(G1000)

Thanks.

Edit: SR22 G2 GTS .. that wasn't clear
 
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Have fun in your plastic plane. Every time I see one fly it amazes me the torgue of the engine doesn't twist right off the plane. ;)
 
Don't be afraid of it. It's truly a simple and enjoyable airplane to fly.

-Roll rate is quick. The stick is sensitive. Pressure control only.
-No manual trim. You don't have smooth control when trimming. It's "on" or "off."
-Be on speed for approaches and landing. Do not try and force it on the runway. It doesn't slow down quickly unless you're on the back side of the power curve.
-Don't let the tach rise over 1,000rpm when starting. It's not hard.
-The Avidyne system is like Garmin's "little brother." If you can fly a G1000, you can fly an Avidyne. Button-ology is the only learning curve.
-The brakes are beyond pathetic. Plan your landings like they don't exist. If you think you can make the turnoff, you won't.
-It's a free castering nosewheel. You turn with brake pressure.
-I find it better to deploy the flaps about 8-10kts below the ref speed listed for that setting. Otherwise it'll pop you up, over and throw off your approach.
-You know you can land the airplane when you get it down and stopped in 1,000' without excessive brake use.

Don't let the CSIP blow the airplane out of proportion. It's easy. Have fun!
 
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genna said:
Starting Cirrus transition training on Avidyne G2 GTS with a CSIP instructor. Any pointers? Other than the usual AoA and pull the chute tips.

Most of my experience is with C172 and DA40

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Which Cirrus. Each model is different in regard to speeds and flaps. Read the Ops and panel manuals. Know the checklists before going up.
 
Biggest adjustment (IMO) will be the pace at which things come at you. Staying ahead of the aircraft was a challenge at first.
Second Biggest will be slowing the plane down (my experience anyway).

You will forget about the sidestick in about 10 minutes.
There will be a number of new gadgets, bells, and whistles but try not to let those overwhelm you.
They are not needed to fly the plane and you will pick that stuff up.

Slowing it down was a bit of a shocker at first. I was used to entering the pattern full bore in a 172 and similar aircraft.
You will want to start thinking about slowing the plane down 20 miles out (I said thinking about not actually slowing it) Start planning for it so you can enter somewhere around 1/2 flap speed (or what ever your CSIP tells you)

As far as speed, for me, this was more an issue of having frequencies ready as they need changing a lot around the DFW bravo.
That and having less time to think about entering airspace. With this speed, you don't have to pitch up much at all to be climbing at a great clip.
In your 172 the sight picture in a 500/min climb is noticeable. In the Cirrus you will say to yourself "It looks like I should be descending based on this sight picture but I am climbing like a bat out of hell"

The sight picture is much more seemingly down pitched so initially you might find yourself climbing a lot if using the horizon as your reference.
This will make the first few landings exciting.

No flaring required, just fly it over the runway at a flatter attitude than you are used to and gently try and keep it off and you should be able to just roll it on.

It is so comfortable and plush inside you will now experience fear and sadness anytime you go back and rent that 172.

It is a good idea if you get the roll trim dialed in to never touch it again. Possibly just yanking that knob off would be a good idea.
it is crazy sensitive and takes the rest of the flight to dial it back in.

Also, A good portion of the people on the ramp will instantly not like you anymore and you are no longer a real pilot.

I think that about covers it.
 
It's a pretty easy airplane to learn. Hands down it has the best manufacturer developed training syllabus. It wasn't always this way but they've sure done a lot of impressive work. I especially like the interactive iPad training manual.
 
aah, cirrus transition training......a lot you can practice at home:

"Evian?!?!? what kind of bottled water is this??!! line boy!!!! go fetch me some Fiji and it better be chilled!!!"
 
@Cpt_Kirk pretty much nailed what I was going to say.

By biggest gripes are, or rather what I'll second is:
1.) the trim is crazy sensitive and jumpy. No slow gentle tweaking like on Pipers and Cessnas. I hand flew for initial climb and most of the descent but for cruise used autopilot because it was far easier
2.) watch the CHTs, at least around here we had to do a lot 500 fpm climbs keeping the airspeed up to keep the temps cool
3.) the brakes and taxiing are weird
4.) you will hate traveling in anything else
5.) the sidestick actually feels more natural to me now. For cost reasons I'm flying a 172 recently, but it doesn't feel as natural as the sidestick despite getting all my original training on Warriors and Skyhawks. Somehow the yoke feels two dimensional where the sidestick gave me the illusion of infinite range of motion

*to me it felt like I went from a beat up elderly car that had to be coaxed along and into a brand new BMW 3. The only thing that makes transition "back" down to a 172 easier is that at least around here they rent for 1/2 or even 1/3 the rate... so there's that!

**the training syllabus is great though, nice that a manufacturer gives such specific lesson plans, etc. and it comprehensively covers all key components of the plane. It felt much more "legit" than the other fixed gear checkouts I'd had in other planes where it's pretty much "use the checklist and don't be stupid"

Now my favorite things: it's fast, it's comfortable, it feels safe, rides turbulence better (it feels less floaty if that makes sense). Launching out on a 300nm cross country the Cirrus will win every time for me over a 172 or Archer, hands down
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It is so comfortable and plush inside you will now experience fear and sadness anytime you go back and rent that 172.
Click to expand...
Yes. For sure. When I got back into flying recently cost was a bigger factor to me now that I'm older and less $$ reckless (you know, 401K, saving for future, etc.) and I went through the 7 stages of grief

1.) Shock and denial... "they don't really rent for $300/hr!!"
2.) Pain and Guilt... "oh my god, why am I so poor? What did I do wrong in my life? Why am I bad at everything?"
3.) Anger... "this isn't fair, who do these parachute fixed gear plastic Cirrus guys think they are? It can't be that much better than a 172?"
4.) Depression and loneliness... "if I can't fly a Cirrus then I might as well not fly at all"
5.) The upward turn... dig up the old logbooks from pre-Cirrus days, fond memories of cross country flights navigating by paper chart and VOR, oh look, my first solo!
6.) Reconstruction... "let's find a club that has a nice fleet of Pipers and Archers..."
7.) Acceptance... "this plane flies great, I don't mind taking twice as long to get somewhere, this is about the joy of flying anyway. Oh that thing rattling, don't worry about that. The giant piece of broken plastic, that's fine... yes you can see some sky through the door seam, it happens... it's an old plane but she's built solid!"
 
It's a great plane. You'll have some fun. It will be faster than what you're used to so stay ahead of it.
 
Nice modern airplane but things I found odd relative to other similar sized planes:

- Spring on the side stick is annoying, gives you much less feel from the control surfaces and much harder to trim the plane
- Electric trim only makes it hard to fine tune trim
- Because of the above it's not a nice plane to hand fly... it's basically built to fly on autopilot
- Getting the speeds right on an approach are key, you can't just drop the flaps and slow down quickly like a Piper or Skyhawk... if you come in fast you better have a long runway
- The whole nosewheel caster thing takes some getting used to... one key is to always go straight before stopping. Stopping with the wheel turned will have you spinning around when you try to go again.
- When putting the flaps out near the indicated speeds the plane will want to dart upwards (even with a good autopilot you might gain 150 ft just from putting the flaps down)
- Climb out is at a much lower angle than many other planes... just 5 degrees or so, feels more like lifting off in helicopter than a plane. With the 50% flaps at takeoff the plane more rises off the runway than climbs
- Don't get slow and certainly don't spin it... (edit apparently it can recover from a spin despite what many say)
 
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Thanks everyone. Good tips! I'm sure i'm going to enjoy it. The plane is posh. Black leather everywhere. Feels like a modern sports car inside vs a sort of a stripped down race(without the speed) car of other planes i'm used to. I think i may be the first person who rents it. This is an expensive experiment to find a plane my wife would not mind flying.

Caster wheel does not bother me, i'm used to it on DA40. Electric trim is a concern. Both 172s and DA i fly have them and i really don't like them. Speed is something i'm going to have to get my head around. Fastest thing i have piloted so far was C-T182 which i'm sure is quite different.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
test pilots declared the plane virtually unrecoverable from a spin (one of the real reasons it has that chute)
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All good advice but this last sentence is incorrect and becoming a prolific internet reason to bash on the aircraft for a misconception.

In the U.S. it didn't have to be spin certified because it has the BRS. Not the other way around.

"In 2004, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA, previously JAA) required Cirrus to conduct a limited series of spin tests for European certification. The spins were completed and met EASA satisfaction, with no unusual characteristics found."

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-Cirrus-recover-from-a-spin
 
Genna one of the best things you can do is invest 65 bucks and join COPA. Much there to learn and a totally different atmosphere. I think you'll enjoy it!
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
All good advice but this last sentence is incorrect and becoming a prolific internet reason to bash on the aircraft for a misconception.

In the U.S. it didn't have to be spin certified because it has the BRS. Not the other way around.

"In 2004, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA, previously JAA) required Cirrus to conduct a limited series of spin tests for European certification. The spins were completed and met EASA satisfaction, with no unusual characteristics found."

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-Cirrus-recover-from-a-spin
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I stand corrected
 
genna said:
This is an expensive experiment to find a plane my wife would not mind flying.
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LOL, this was the same reason I went through the transition originally as well. The 172N I'm flying now is well taken care of so she's happy with it, but she DID NOT like the older Warriors and Archers...

SixPapaCharlie said:
All good advice but this last sentence is incorrect and becoming a prolific internet reason to bash on the aircraft for a misconception.
Click to expand...
Funny, I even had a CFI tell me that once as caution when we were doing stalls during the transition... very critical to "DON'T LET THAT WING DROP!" and if it spins just pull the chute. I always had a hard time believing this. Sure, it might not be as mundane as the trainers we're used to, but I never really believed that it was "not recoverable"
 
All this Cirrus talk... might just have to upgrade my upcoming Vegas trip from the 172 to the Cirrus! It'll cost more but still cheaper than a last minute plane ticket for two people :rolleyes:
 
EminiTrader said:
Genna one of the best things you can do is invest 65 bucks and join COPA. Much there to learn and a totally different atmosphere. I think you'll enjoy it!
Click to expand...
I agree that COPA is an excellent resource, but be prepared for an avalanche of email from posts you never signed up for. Coinciding with Sun N Fun this year I was receiving 30-50 unsolicited emails every day.
 
I did COPA for a year. Didn't fit in at all so I bailed.

I did visit them at Osh though over in the wait for it... COPA Cabana !!!!!! AHHHHHHH I kill me.

It can be a stuffy forum. I find most plane specific forums are. That Socata forum was another one that was cult like.
I prefer this and the purple board where everyone is welcome.

Except new people and women.
 
1. Don't be low and slow. Deadly mix in a Cirri.
2. Practice unusual attitude recoveries. In an emergency you will do what you have trained.
3. Landings - Don't flare like you would in a 172. No need - just fly her down.
4. Go easy on the brakes upon landing. They get hot and the heat gets trapped in the pants.
5. Don't get behind the airplane. I know you've heard it before, but this plane is FAST and you need to mentally stay fast with it.

Have fun. I loved my time in a G3 SR22-GTS.
 
Cogito said:
I agree that COPA is an excellent resource, but be prepared for an avalanche of email from posts you never signed up for. Coinciding with Sun N Fun this year I was receiving 30-50 unsolicited emails every day.
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You can turn those off
 
It's really driving me nuts that "dont get slow" and "don't flare it like any other airplane" are being recommended.

If you can "drive it on," you're landing with too much speed. Plain and simple. The stick should be back against pitch limit stop and the stall horn chirping when the mains touch. Its an airplane and lands like one. Don't be a Bonanza driver and "drive it on" at 95kts.

Getting slow in the airplane is not a deathwish. Stalling the airplane at a low altitude where the 'chute wont help you is a deathwish. But, then again, in what airplane would it not be?
 
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Tantalum said:
LOL, this was the same reason I went through the transition originally as well. The 172N I'm flying now is well taken care of so she's happy with it, but she DID NOT like the older Warriors and Archers...


Funny, I even had a CFI tell me that once as caution when we were doing stalls during the transition... very critical to "DON'T LET THAT WING DROP!" and if it spins just pull the chute. I always had a hard time believing this. Sure, it might not be as mundane as the trainers we're used to, but I never really believed that it was "not recoverable"
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Seems like every CFI today is deathy scared of spins, as if they're a death wish and airplanes just instantly explode and kill you if spun.

Except acro, of course, but they don't do that.
 
mkosmo said:
Seems like every CFI today is deathy scared of spins, as if they're a death wish and airplanes just instantly explode and kill you if spun.
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It was honestly kind of a surprise to me that spin training and recovery isn't part of standard training... knowing how to recover the plane should it do something bad seems like an important element to know.

EDIT: not necessarily for Cirrus, but for general ratings
 
Tantalum said:
It was honestly kind of a surprise to me that spin training and recovery isn't part of standard training... knowing how to recover the plane should it do something bad seems like an important element to know.

EDIT: not necessarily for Cirrus, but for general ratings
Click to expand...
It needs to be a part of training.
 
Each Cirrus model has specific numbers for pattern, approach, flap, over the numbers speeds and landing configuration. It is important to read the Ops manual for the plane. There is one distinct common characteristic Cirrus has though. You sit a bit higher in the seat as related to the windscreen and your siteview of the runway. This will distort your sense that the nose is flaring (it appears flat when it is up). The Cirrus side stick is stiff so make sure to take some pressure off using pitch trim on approach so the flare is not a struggle.
 
citizen5000 said:
Each Cirrus model has specific numbers for pattern, approach, flap, over the numbers speeds and landing configuration.
Click to expand...
This was the biggest thing that helped me to be honest... the percent power settings in the pattern really helped manage your airspeed and energy

*not getting slow and not letting the plane get ahead of you are true, but as others have said that's going to be true in just about all planes
 
Tantalum said:
This was the biggest thing that helped me to be honest... the percent power settings in the pattern really helped manage your airspeed and energy

*not getting slow and not letting the plane get ahead of you are true, but as others have said that's going to be true in just about all planes
Click to expand...
I imagine like most book numbers, getting slow doesn't put you in any danger.
 
mkosmo said:
getting slow doesn't put you in any danger
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Dipping below 60 KIAS in the Skyhawk you can definitely feel the plane start to get mushier, that's a good indicator for you to lower the nose and get it back up a tad

The Cirrus I didn't get that same feedback, maybe it was the aggressive spring loaded stick or the more critical airfoil, but it wasn't as evident as in the 172 that you were starting to get to the danger zone *cough,archer,cough* - in the stalls I did find it a little more "aggressive," so that's where the "don't get slow" thing probably comes from. You'll be at least somewhat screwed stalling any plane on final, but a Cirrus you'll be a lot more screwed than a Skyhawk I'd imagine (luckily haven't done either)

*Some people mentioned flaring, I didn't find that to be that challenging... if you hold it off the runway eventually you'll hit the backstops, here the stall chirp and touch down. NOW, what is different, in the Skyhawks I keep back pressure on the yoke the whole roll out to keep that nose wheel from shimmying... I did that the first time I landed the Cirrus and was quickly advised not to by the CFI for controlability on ground issues
 
Tantalum said:
Dipping below 60 KIAS in the Skyhawk you can definitely feel the plane start to get mushier, that's a good indicator for you to lower the nose and get it back up a tad

The Cirrus I didn't get that same feedback, maybe it was the aggressive spring loaded stick or the more critical airfoil, but it wasn't as evident as in the 172 that you were starting to get to the danger zone *cough,archer,cough* - in the stalls I did find it a little more "aggressive," so that's where the "don't get slow" thing probably comes from. You'll be at least somewhat screwed stalling any plane on final, but a Cirrus you'll be a lot more screwed than a Skyhawk I'd imagine (luckily haven't done either)

*Some people mentioned flaring, I didn't find that to be that challenging... if you hold it off the runway eventually you'll hit the backstops, here the stall chirp and touch down. NOW, what is different, in the Skyhawks I keep back pressure on the yoke the whole roll out to keep that nose wheel from shimmying... I did that the first time I landed the Cirrus and was quickly advised not to by the CFI for controlability on ground issues
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Eh? I'm usually over the fence at 55 or so. Book for mine shows 55-65 as the approach speed with flaps.

I've flown other free castering nosewheel aircraft and never ran in to controllability issues maintaining backpressure while rolling out or taxiing.
 
Question about the nose wheel on the Cirrus. I've flown a DA40 and C162 quite a bit which are both free castering. The rudder on the DA40 is huge and the C162 is very light so at taxi speed I find I have enough rudder authority to steer without breaking. Does the same apply to Cirri?
 
labbadabba said:
Question about the nose wheel on the Cirrus. I've flown a DA40 and C162 quite a bit which are both free castering. The rudder on the DA40 is huge and the C162 is very light so at taxi speed I find I have enough rudder authority to steer without breaking. Does the same apply to Cirri?
Click to expand...
You'll need to use differential braking in the Cirrus.
 
labbadabba said:
Question about the nose wheel on the Cirrus. I've flown a DA40 and C162 quite a bit which are both free castering. The rudder on the DA40 is huge and the C162 is very light so at taxi speed I find I have enough rudder authority to steer without breaking. Does the same apply to Cirri?
Click to expand...

When taxiing you need to use the toe-brakes. Cirrus also trains to use the brakes on takeoff roll tapping them slightly to keep the plane straight. But with practice the rudder alone can be used if you advance the throttle more slowly and match the torque with right rudder as you gain speed. When landing you need to again use the brakes but try to tap them and not keep steady pressure on them.

Also, regarding the castoring nose wheel. If you set the nose down too quickly or do a three-point the nose wheel will shutter so keep the stick back until your speed is bled off to taxi pace.
 
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