Cirrus stall spin?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by jhoyt, Jul 14, 2017 at 8:33 AM.

  1. jhoyt

    jhoyt Pre-Flight

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  2. CC268

    CC268 Pattern Altitude

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    Very very sad

    Can't imagine being involved in something like that. Unbelievable.
     
  3. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Cleared for Takeoff

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    Possible that altitude was too low for chute to be fully effective. Condolences to the family.
     
  4. Shepherd

    Shepherd Pattern Altitude

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  5. Rotero

    Rotero Filing Flight Plan

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    Once again. Never ends, it is not change.

    RIP
     
  6. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    May they Rest In Peace.
     
  7. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    For the amount of engine outs I see on take off these days it makes me want to take off and land at airports near bodies of water.
     
  8. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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  9. gsengle

    gsengle Cleared for Takeoff

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    It almost looks like the chute did him in, would be bad to impact the ground in the initial big swing you must get when it opens...


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  10. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    Sounds like the chute turned into a big speed brake, dragging the tail up a d he hit the ground pretty nose down . . . The lawyers are already circling from what I read . . . . . "unsafe design, " "wicked stall," etc.
     
  11. AIR565

    AIR565 Filing Flight Plan

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    may they R.I.P. praying for the family
     
  12. gsengle

    gsengle Cleared for Takeoff

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    There is an article I've posted before - interview with a Cirrus engineer... the same cuff that makes the plane stall resistant can make recovering from a spin harder if you actually get into one. I've also heard concerns about low speed control feel being deadened by the spring (not aerodynamic) trim system. I didn't care for it when I got some Cirrus stick time. Who knows....

    http://www.kineticlearning.com/pilots_world/safety/06_05/article_06_03.html

    May the pilot rest in peace

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  13. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

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    Grim. . .I guess he made the call that seemed right at the time; I'll wait a long while before second guessing him. Prayers.
     
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  14. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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  15. FlyingTiger

    FlyingTiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thats the tricky thing about the Cirrus, indecision about what to do can lead to the wrong decision and disaster i.e pulling the chute too low instead of landing in a nearby field or not pulling the chute at pattern altitude at the first sign of real trouble. You really need to have situational awareness of your absolute altitude and a committed plan of action depending on that number. Easier said then done under stress, I know, and this isn't directed at the accident pilot in this thread, just general observations about flying with a chute.
     
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  16. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    Just an observation, it seems like he was trying to fix the issue before pulling the chute. Things happen so quickly in a Cirrus that he didn't have enough altitude to pull. CAPS does save lives, (76 pilots to be exact) as long as it is used under the parameters it was designed for. He was too low to use it but tried it anyway.
     
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  17. Tantalum

    Tantalum Line Up and Wait

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    When I did the checkout in the Cirrus transition program they really drilled in the altitude rule with chute opening.. basically engine out below 500 AGL and just land straight ahead or shallow mild turns at best glide

    Yeah this has been concerning to me too.. not to blame the pilots but makes me wonder about preflighting, checking tanks for water, doing runups, mag checks, etc..
     
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  18. FlyingTiger

    FlyingTiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I can't help but think about the crash at Hobby that killed the pilot, her husband and brother-in-law. They were at pattern altitude so all she probably had to do was pull the chute when the wing and nose dropped. Still makes me a bit sad to think about that one; young kids lose mom and dad just like that.
     
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  19. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

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    Check out this video he did a flight check and the engine still went out on him.

     
  20. mtnflyr

    mtnflyr Pre-Flight

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    That would be on the very edge of the caps envelope. At 500agl caps only works if your straight and level. If your in a dive or a spin it likely will not help.

    I have a feeling the pilot of the 22 from the article was much to low and caps made everything worse. My instructor drilled it into my head that if your below 500agl land straight ahead. Especially if the engine quits on take off. Even at cruise altitude your suppose to make the decision to pull caps before 2000agl. This is is why the more experience I get I fly a tighter pattern giving me a chance to glide back to the runway if needed. Some days the DA is so high if I'm doing training with my CFI we won't get to 500agl until midfield in the downwind, and we won't get to pattern altitude either! Thankfully were surrounded by farm lands if the giant fan turned off up front
     
  21. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    You really shouldn't be on downwind unless you are at pattern altitude. You should extend your upwind. If someone else is in the pattern at normal pattern altitude, they might have trouble seeing you if you are 300-500 feet below.
     
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  22. tspear

    tspear Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Sine when?
    I was taught to stay within a 1/2 mile.

    Tim

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  23. ZeroPapaGolf

    ZeroPapaGolf Line Up and Wait

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    Airplane Flying Handbook page 7-4.

    Also, AC 90-66A says:

    h. Airplanes remaining in the traffic pattern should not commence a turn to the crosswind leg until beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet below traffic pattern altitude, with the pilot ensuring that the turn to downwind leg will be made at the traffic pattern altitude.

     
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  24. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Since at least Feb 9, 1989. That's the oldest AIM I have with the "requirement".

    dtuuri
     
  25. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Yep and that is how I was taught. Seems like some CFIs aren't teaching all that they should.
     
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  26. ZeroPapaGolf

    ZeroPapaGolf Line Up and Wait

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    Apparently not. Climbing on downwind is a fantastic way to have a mid-air with someone at proper pattern altitude.
     
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  27. tspear

    tspear Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Interesting. I did not recall reading that. Never had an issue in the C172, SR20/SR22 or Aerostar meeting the requirements, but then my C172 and Cirrus flying has always been in the east coast or south, so never worried about density altitude issues.

    Tim
     
  28. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    If I ever knew that I forgot. I often am still climbing a bit on my downwind leg.

    Never too old to learn something new!
     
  29. Hank S

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    Yep. And I'm often pulling the throttle on crosswind to not blow through pattern altitude; I generally turn just after 500 agl and fly 1/2 mile out, maybe a block or two wider at most.
     
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  30. asicer

    asicer Cleared for Takeoff

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    Hmph. I would have thought your Sky Arrow had a good climb gradient. Are you flying a super tight pattern or something?
     
  31. mtnflyr

    mtnflyr Pre-Flight

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    Downwind turn shouldn't be made till your at pattern altitude? It seems a lot of people posting above me have never experienced high density altitude.

    When your local airport is over 8,000 density altitude and OAT is 35c (95 Fahrenheit) you would have to leave the pattern and come in on the 45 to make it to pattern altitude. Communication and observation is key.
     
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  32. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    I do fly a tight pattern, and 100hp in a Light Sport results in decent climb performance - lb/hp not very different from an SR22.

    Still, I am typically still climbing when I turn downwind, maybe just the last 200' or so to get to 1,000'. Based on the above, I may delay my turn to crosswind by another 10 or 15 seconds to be at 1,000' before turning downwind.

    I will likely print out the AC referenced above and bring it up at our next EAA meeting. May also add it to my discussion list when giving BFR's.
     
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  33. George Mohr

    George Mohr Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Interesting, that one got by me as well. Love this forum!
     
  34. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    I'm finding the PHAK and AFH are starting to add opinions, not backed up by the AIM, lately.

    dtuuri
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017 at 1:05 PM
  35. dmspilot

    dmspilot Pattern Altitude

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    Trying to stir s**t again?

    AIM 4-3-2 c.

    6. Departure leg. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.
     
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  36. ZeroPapaGolf

    ZeroPapaGolf Line Up and Wait

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    This entire pattern discussion has been based on quotes from the AIM and an Advisory Circular.
     
  37. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    That's what I'm saying--the AIM DOES NOT say, "...with the pilot ensuring that the turn to downwind leg will be made at the traffic pattern altitude."

    dtuuri
     
  38. ZeroPapaGolf

    ZeroPapaGolf Line Up and Wait

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    AC 90-66A says:

    h. Airplanes remaining in the traffic pattern should not commence a turn to the crosswind leg until beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet below traffic pattern altitude, with the pilot ensuring that the turn to downwind leg will be made at the traffic pattern altitude.
     
  39. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    I thought you said the PHAK and AFH said the same thing, no?

    dtuuri
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017 at 1:06 PM
  40. dmspilot

    dmspilot Pattern Altitude

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    Does the AIM have to justify and explain every procedure? Is there a section in the AIM explaining why a standard pattern is to the left? No, it just says that it is.