Cirrus, Media, Perceptions, Their Success

[Tantalum]

Enjoy: http://gizmodo.com/why-did-this-company-let-me-fly-a-2-million-aircraft-1795892742

There were several cringeworthy parts of the article. I quoted just one section below. I also counted at least 3 different sections talking about how much the plane felt like a car

"
As we cruised over Coney Island and under the busy commercial air traffic for LaGuardia, the pilot explained that the autopilot essentially worked like the touch-to-fly feature you see on consumer drones.

“Want to go to Nantucket?” he said. I told him I did, and he pulled up the flight map on one of the screens. “Just zoom in to the airport here, tap, and you’re on your way.”

This felt impossible to me. What is this future in which you touch a screen and an airplane takes you to a fantastic island, famous for whaling and red pants? It felt like witchcraft, except it wasn’t.
"

Ultimately though, this is why Cirrus has such strong sales figures. Their marketing and appeal to "the layperson" is top notch.

 

[Tantalum]

^PS - this is a knock more on the article, than Cirrus. I think the SR22 is a great plane and if I had the money to buy a new-ish one it'd be very high on my list of favs. And the jet will, undoubtedly, redefine GA as we know it. Even if it fails (which it won't) it reshapes the landscape

 

[asicer]

^PS - this is a knock more on the article, than Cirrus. I think the SR22 is a great plane and if I had the money to buy a new-ish one it'd be very high on my list of favs.

What do you have against the older ones?

 

[Tantalum]

What do you have against the older ones?

I was salivating over some older G1 and G2 SR22 but I read some concerning elements about the rudder / aileron interconnect.. wing dihedral, airfoil cross section, chute installation, etc. Having said that, all my Cirrus time is in older birds and I didn't find stalls or general handling to be some U2 level ****

 

[tspear]

If you join COPA, and talk to Cirrus sales reps, you find most Cirrus planes are purchased by existing pilots. I find it interesting how there is this myth that Cirrus is bringing in lots of new pilots. Do they try, yes, but they really do not sell many of the planes to this group. Maybe the SF50 will be different.

Tim

 

[Tantalum]

but they really do not sell many of the planes to this group

True, good point. But I bet a fair amount of people also want to buy something that their spouse / wife / family will feel safe and comfortable in and put that as one of the top wishlist items. No other plane does that like the Cirrus, have that similar wow factor with the non flying crowd

I am really interested to see who ends up buying the jet, and what it's perception will be. That Gizmodo article surely builds the plane's appeal value up for non flying folks, enough so that I bet if you told a non pilot in ten years that you fly a Cirrus Jet they'd be impressed.. and at the same time have no idea what a phenom or mustang is

 

[Art VanDelay]

I don't know about the VisionJet for a non-pilot first airplane. As a CFI it would feel kind of weird signing off a guy for his initial solo - "Ok, I'm gonna hop out now. Give me two good touch and gos and make the last one a full stop. Oh, and try to keep it under 250kts please" !!!

 

[asicer]

I was salivating over some older G1 and G2 SR22 but I read some concerning elements about the rudder / aileron interconnect.. wing dihedral, airfoil cross section, chute installation, etc. Having said that, all my Cirrus time is in older birds and I didn't find stalls or general handling to be some U2 level ****

Since we're already drifting the thread, do you find the SR20 to be as underpowered a dog as people make it out to be? What sort of climb and cruise numbers do you see?

 

[RudyP]

If you join COPA, and talk to Cirrus sales reps, you find most Cirrus planes are purchased by existing pilots. I find it interesting how there is this myth that Cirrus is bringing in lots of new pilots. Do they try, yes, but they really do not sell many of the planes to this group. Maybe the SF50 will be different.

Tim

There are definitely some that are new pilots for whom Cirrus is at least partly responsible for their entry into flying. Of those, the vast majority had some sort of interest before they ever heard of Cirrus but never took the plunge until a friendly sales rep (or an owner friend) gave them a demo that got them thinking "I really can do this and this airplane is great!" And of course the plane (and parachute) do tend to play well to wives as well.

On the other hand, I had been flying for 17 years when I bought my first plane but it was a Cirrus that really tipped me over the edge into ownership.

 

[labbadabba]

Since we're already drifting the thread, do you find the SR20 to be as underpowered a dog as people make it out to be? What sort of climb and cruise numbers do you see?

The new one apparently has much better performance. At least, that's what their marketing material says. Phillip Greenspun has a really nice write-up on an older SR-20 that goes to your point that it's a bit of a dog when hot and high.

 

[labbadabba]

Enjoy: http://gizmodo.com/why-did-this-company-let-me-fly-a-2-million-aircraft-1795892742

There were several cringeworthy parts of the article. I quoted just one section below. I also counted at least 3 different sections talking about how much the plane felt like a car

"
As we cruised over Coney Island and under the busy commercial air traffic for LaGuardia, the pilot explained that the autopilot essentially worked like the touch-to-fly feature you see on consumer drones.

“Want to go to Nantucket?” he said. I told him I did, and he pulled up the flight map on one of the screens. “Just zoom in to the airport here, tap, and you’re on your way.”

This felt impossible to me. What is this future in which you touch a screen and an airplane takes you to a fantastic island, famous for whaling and red pants? It felt like witchcraft, except it wasn’t.
"

Ultimately though, this is why Cirrus has such strong sales figures. Their marketing and appeal to "the layperson" is top notch.

Why does the author keep calling it the world's smallest jet? Is that a bit of false marketing the Cirrus reps are pushing? The rest of it is layperson fluff, nice to see kind words about GA at the very least.

 

[Tantalum]

I don't know about the VisionJet for a non-pilot first airplane. As a CFI it would feel kind of weird signing off a guy for his initial solo - "Ok, I'm gonna hop out now. Give me two good touch and gos and make the last one a full stop. Oh, and try to keep it under 250kts please" !!!

Didn't you read the article? It is just like a drone all you have to do is press somewhere on the touch screen map and the jet takes you there!




...sigh

 

[Tantalum]

Since we're already drifting the thread, do you find the SR20 to be as underpowered a dog as people make it out to be? What sort of climb and cruise numbers do you see?

Compared to Warriors and 160 hp Skyhawks the SR20 felt the same to me. However, compared to the 180hp Skyhawks and the Archer I fly, yes, the SR20 feels disappointingly slow in the climb. I had four people in the plane exactly once, and once only! We were about 30 lbs below gross and it was a very anemic climb, to say the least!

Why does the author keep calling it the world's smallest jet?

I didn't get that either, but I've seen a couple publications insinuating that. I did like the handsome picture someone posted in the article with the Bede and the Aero Commander behind it

 

[Tantalum]

it was a Cirrus that really tipped me over the edge into ownership.

It definitely has that effect! I was obsessed with them when I first went through the transition. Now that I'm trying to get my IR the costs are a bigger factor again and I don't mind a modest cruising speed since it helps me build time and hours anyway

Once IR though I'll likely go back to Cirrus, and at that point just get checked out in an SR22. The speed is really what does it for me. The comfort is nice, but the speed is awesome.

If I had to buy though, that changes the equation somewhat, and since my mission is just two people I could get a very fast ride for around $100K if I go Mooney. It's fun to dream.

 

[EminiTrader]

Since we're already drifting the thread, do you find the SR20 to be as underpowered a dog as people make it out to be? What sort of climb and cruise numbers do you see?

Yes. My first plane waa a SR20. Great plane of its just you and one other but shes a dog. But i did put 350 hours on her in under a year.

 

[asicer]

Yes. My first plane waa a SR20. Great plane of its just you and one other but shes a dog. But i did put 350 hours on her in under a year.

Is it really a 150kt+ plane as the POH suggests?

 

[jallen0]

I loved the fact that the author said you could have a bathroom in the SF50. I never saw that information anywhere else before.

 

[Tantalum]

Is it really a 150kt+ plane as the POH suggests?

The older SR20 I fly at the club settles in around 142-144 TAS. The new ones with more power and refined wings may cruise faster

 

[SkyDog58]

This line in the article has me scratching my head:
"Unlike prop planes that have speed and altitude limitations, the Vision Jet is capable of cross country flights, albeit with a few stops."

The jet doesn't have speed and altitude limitations? A prop plane isn't capable of crosscountry flights? Really stupid writing.

 

[CC268]

This line in the article has me scratching my head:
"Unlike prop planes that have speed and altitude limitations, the Vision Jet is capable of cross country flights, albeit with a few stops."

The jet doesn't have speed and altitude limitations? A prop plane isn't capable of crosscountry flights? Really stupid writing.

Hahahaha I laughed out loud at that too. WTF???

 

[jordane93]

The owners of our leasebacks and managed aircraft have all had stellar things to say about the process of buying a Cirrus with the help of a rep. They are with them throughout the entire process and they say it's a seamless purchase.

 

[citizen5000]

Ultimately though, this is why Cirrus has such strong sales figures. Their marketing and appeal to "the layperson" is top notch.

Again, to make this statement ring true the bulk of Cirrus customers would need to be low-time and unsophisticated pilots and that is simply not the case. The used market may see what you call a "lay person" buying an SR20. But that is not under Cirrus control. Cirrus makes sure new customers get the factory training necessary to be safe and has a well designed web portal that ensures those seriously navigating it get a solid basis in the aircraft and it's systems.

Cirrus is the sales leader for reasons some may not like. The product is simply competitive in the performance/price curve and actually appeals to the more sophisticated pilots out there not the lesser ones.

 

[EminiTrader]

Is it really a 150kt+ plane as the POH suggests?

As others said. New ones you get 155. Mine 145.

 

[GRG55]

I loved the fact that the author said you could have a bathroom in the SF50. I never saw that information anywhere else before.

First I have heard of it in a Cirrus jet. Daher has been offering a privacy lavatory option in the TBM series since last year. Takes 30 minutes to install or remove in place of the two rear seats. I would expect Cirrus to look at copying that concept - that would be a hit with the wives I am sure.

 

[GRG55]

Again, to make this statement ring true the bulk of Cirrus customers would need to be low-time and unsophisticated pilots and that is simply not the case. The used market may see what you call a "lay person" buying an SR20. But that is not under Cirrus control. Cirrus makes sure new customers get the factory training necessary to be safe and has a well designed web portal that ensures those seriously navigating it get a solid basis in the aircraft and it's systems.

Cirrus is the sales leader for reasons some may not like. The product is simply competitive in the performance/price curve and actually appeals to the more sophisticated pilots out there not the lesser ones.

The bulk of Cirrus customers are zero time and almost certainly "unsophisticated" when it comes to the technical aspects of the product. Most of them bring their pilot spouses along with them to deal with that aspect though.

Good thing it doesn't appeal to the lesser pilots. If it did, Cessna wouldn't be able to sell even one more 172.

 

[EminiTrader]

The bulk of Cirrus customers are zero time and almost certainly "unsophisticated" when it comes to the technical aspects of the product. Most of them bring their pilot spouses along with them to deal with that aspect though.

Good thing it doesn't appeal to the lesser pilots. If it did, Cessna wouldn't be able to sell even one more 172.

Factually not true. A large portion of Cirrus owners have owned other planes and been flying a long time. True some new guys come in but most have been flying awhile.

 

[tspear]

Factually not true. A large portion of Cirrus owners have owned other planes and been flying a long time. True some new guys come in but most have been flying awhile.

He was being cheeky, and stating the non-flying spouse is the one who wants the Cirrus. I thought it was nicely played, with a touch of truth to it.

Tim

 

[weilke]

Factually not true. A large portion of Cirrus owners have owned other planes and been flying a long time. True some new guys come in but most have been flying awhile.

How many new pilots does Beech bring into the fold ? Or Cessna for that matter (how many 172 are purchased by non-institutional buyers) ?

 

[jallen0]

First I have heard of it in a Cirrus jet. Daher has been offering a privacy lavatory option in the TBM series since last year. Takes 30 minutes to install or remove in place of the two rear seats. I would expect Cirrus to look at copying that concept - that would be a hit with the wives I am sure.

This is a very stupid question. If you had a bathroom in there and if you were the lone pilot flying a long haul...would you get out of your seat and use the bathroom?

 

[nauga]

If you had a bathroom in there and if you were the lone pilot flying a long haul...

If I'm the lone pilot flying a long haul *every* airplane is has a bathroom.

Nauga,
who flies ahead

 

[steingar]

While I have a great respect for Cirrus and it's originators I should somewhat tremulously point out that the thing with which Cirrus is most successful is recruiting investors. If I am not mistaken they continue to operate at a loss.

 

[weilke]

This is a very stupid question. If you had a bathroom in there and if you were the lone pilot flying a long haul...would you get out of your seat and use the bathroom?

There is no long-haul in a Sf50

 

[RudyP]

It definitely has that effect! I was obsessed with them when I first went through the transition. Now that I'm trying to get my IR the costs are a bigger factor again and I don't mind a modest cruising speed since it helps me build time and hours anyway

Once IR though I'll likely go back to Cirrus, and at that point just get checked out in an SR22. The speed is really what does it for me. The comfort is nice, but the speed is awesome.

If I had to buy though, that changes the equation somewhat, and since my mission is just two people I could get a very fast ride for around $100K if I go Mooney. It's fun to dream.

The speed is indeed nice when you are going somewhere. It isn't jet speed, but the turbo models are honest 200 KT airplanes.

 

[citizen5000]

The bulk of Cirrus customers are zero time and almost certainly "unsophisticated" when it comes to the technical aspects of the product. Most of them bring their pilot spouses along with them to deal with that aspect though.

Good thing it doesn't appeal to the lesser pilots. If it did, Cessna wouldn't be able to sell even one more 172.

Yea, it's painful to not be able to afford one.

 

[RudyP]

citizen - he was just kidding... Jeeze...

 

[citizen5000]

citizen - he was just kidding... Jeeze...

So was I.

 

[Rockymountain]

I don't know about the VisionJet for a non-pilot first airplane. As a CFI it would feel kind of weird signing off a guy for his initial solo - "Ok, I'm gonna hop out now. Give me two good touch and gos and make the last one a full stop. Oh, and try to keep it under 250kts please" !!!

I take it you are probably kidding, but this is not a problem with the Jet. Since it is a jet, it requires a formal type rating and demonstration of flight to ATP standards, which are in essence 1/2 the tolerances of the IFR ticket. The pilot then requires a sign off from the FAA for the rating, and then has to re-demonstrate those skills every year with a 61.58 ride, and yearly recurrent training. Insurance will likely additionally mandate mentor time, and pax carrying restrictions commensurate with experience. So in essence, will not have new pilots doing solo flights, and I know of very few instructors that think it is a good idea to do touch and go's in a complex pressurized turbine. Interesting concept that I see bringing a lot of high performance piston pilots into the turbine world. Once in the turbine world, then there are a lot of options if one wants more speed, range, altitude, or carrying capacity.