Cirrus Fatal yesterday and I learned something about Class B floors

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by FastEddieB, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Ok, Mr. WordPerfect :), "basically" at its most basic means the PIC chooses a safe route and then approves any ATC modifications if possible. When a pilot understands that's how it's done, he has good feelings not fear and trepidation of ATC miss-ques or a loss of communications. He doesn't basically just go where ATC says. Not that I think there's a significant disagreement in what we believe, but for newbies to IFR flight that kind of thinking is poison, IMO, so I try to keep 'em on the right mental track.
     
  2. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Bingo. That is exactly the interaction I'm talking about. I am of the opinion that our collective training at the PPL and IR level when it comes to ATC, is one of self-imposed subservience and meekness. That's apparently par for the course, but the second I bring up some people die as a result of the implicit dynamic, it's all of a sudden blasphemy :dunno:.

    Of course, people would be quick to retort by quoting some anti-authority FAA platitude, to which I retort: "yeah, how's that working out for the dead guy?". I digress.

    #efftheblueline #skinB4ticket
     
  3. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Cleared for Takeoff

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    A number of contributing causes in that accident:

    Pilot was flying night VFR without an IFR flight plan on a dark moonless night.

    Flight did not follow the instrument departure procedure.

    Departure overlapped a shift change at the tower of the departure airport.

    Floor of the bravo is low relative to terrain there. A CFI flying with me recently commented on how uncomfortably low it was, even during the day.

    I believe Phoenix approach was told to be more accommodating after this of requests for clearance through the bravo, but it is still hard to get if they are landing to the west as this right in the approach corridor.

    Evidently the aircraft was not legally airworthy. That likely did not directly contribute to the crash, but may have indicated a lax safety culture, though they had never had a prior incident or accident.
     
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  4. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    I remember when that happened.

    It was a particularly awful CFIT crash with the children being involved. They had been picked up at Falcon by their dad for Thanksgiving weekend.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  5. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    I used to fly out of LAS at night Northbound. The general rule is to follow US 95 Northwest until either 10,000 feet or Indian Springs, then turn West to face the desert and the High Sierra mountains beyond, enroute to the bay area...

    Direct Beatty VOR worked great to get out of the Vegas airspace and into LA Center's coverage.

    IFR departures required some pretty good climb rates, so VFR was easier. Arrivals were super easy, since you could see where you were going for 100 miles...
     
  6. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    The primary cause was improper preflight planning.
     
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  7. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Iirc the return leg was unexpectedly flown by a mechanic/pilot who had come along for the trip. Dad was in the back to deal with some emotional issues by one of the kids.
     
  8. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    Cost/benefit ratio, interest, temperament. An IFR panel would cost more than my entire plane. Avoiding airspace is rarely a factor in the kind of flying I do. And while I think I'm a pretty good stick and rudder guy, and deal with complex systems all day at work (I'm an engineer), I know I don't have the temperament to be a good IFR pilot... and that's OK with me.
     
  9. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Cleared for Takeoff

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    They had flown the same flight a week before and flew in and turned it around very quickly, so likely no serious consideration of the flight plan whatsoever.
     
  10. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    if the previous flight was also at night, sounds like they ran out of luck on #2.
     
  11. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Cleared for Takeoff

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    I believe a critical difference was the timing of the call for the turn from runway heading. Previously that had occurred very quickly and the flight path was west of terrain. The controller shift change on the second flight caused a delay and so simply turning to the heading led straight into terrain.

    For night VFR, I follow the instrument departure procedures unless I know the area extremely well and am watching very very carefully.
     
  12. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    You still gotta do the preflight planning. It doesn’t get much flatter than Key West.
    https://www.aopa.org/training-and-s...rship-tether-severs-cessna-wing-killing-three

    These balloons are also located at:
    • Deming, New Mexico
    • Eagle Pass, Texas
    • Fort Huachuca, Arizona
    • Lajas, Puerto Rico
    • Marfa, Texas
    • Matagorda, Texas
    • Morgan City, Louisiana
    • Rio Grande City, Texas
    • Yuma, Arizona
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  13. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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  14. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    That's pretty wild. Just looking at a photo of the aerostat offers no clue it's twice as big as the Goodyear blimps, is stationed at 8,000', and is tethered by a 1" cable under 2,400 lbs of tension.

    The impact probably didn't move the cable much at all while serving as a very effective guillotine.
     
  15. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A simple “synthetic vision” display ( which are really cheap and plentiful among non-certified avionics ) or even an iPad with audio alerts running a synthetic vision app could have prevented this.
    Given that the entire earth surface is available in digital form as a height map for free , this sort of cheap alerting system should be available to everyone flying.
     
  16. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Same here. I learned something from this thread.

    8500' certainly is shown, and close to the mountain, too. MEFs might be standard student training, but I still appreciate the reminder.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  17. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    I flew out of Amelia/Morgan City and there was no tethered balloon there, nor is there one depicted on any aeronautical chart.

    Is that an old list?
     
  18. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    I don’t know the date of the list.
     
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    FWIW, the MEF there is “7,5”. You should be using the Terminal Area Chart when flying in the air it covers rather than the Sectional. The TAC MEF Grids are half the size of the Sectionals.
     
  20. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    FWIW, Las Vegas is the worst place I've ever tried to deal with in terms of getting through the Bravo, and I ended up having to skirt under the Bravo along the south side at night. I believe I flew right past this mountain, though I could see it thanks to the bright lights of the city. Still was NOT a fun experience trying to avoid both the airspace and the terrain while trying repeatedly to get on with the LAS controllers.
     
  21. PaulMillner

    PaulMillner Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Las Vegas isn't exactly the LA area. And Las Vegas Approach is part of the problem...

    Danger! With Las Vegas Approach, even on an IFR clearance, you need to maintain your own terrain awareness.

    Two years ago, I departed Henderson NV, south of Vegas. I'd filed IFR. When giving my clearance, Las Vegas Approach asked me to maintain my own terrain clearance. OK, fine, it was severe clear... I can do that.

    On departure, they assigned me a southbound heading... I asked the controller, "You're going to turn me before I hit that mountain?" "Yeah," he replied. "That's the idea."

    Well... no. As I proceeded southbound, the terrain was getting larger in the windscreen. Finally, I advised the controller I was turning 10 degrees right to avoid terrain.

    He screeched at me, "If you can't maintain your own terrain clearance, you shouldn't accept the clearance!"

    Well, dude, I *am* maintaining my own terrain clearance, by deviating 10 degrees to the right... you're the guy that assigned me the heading into a rock!

    They vectored me around hell's half acre, eventually, restricting my climb to keep my out of the Bravo... I was definitely getting the delay lesson not to file IFR with Vegas if I wanted expeditious handling.


    I wrote it all up for the NTSB, because I thought it represented poor handling. I received a phone call from an NTSB investigator in DC... he indicated that the NTSB had heartburn with how Vegas Approach handled these kind of IFR, kind of not clearances... and that the NTSB would, again, make a recommendation to the FAA that this kind of handling be avoided. But he told me not to expect any change, as Vegas Approach has their own ideas on how to handle their airspace.

    Caveat pilot!
     
  22. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Well that blows, WTF?
     
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  23. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    This. Exactly this. And when you depart VFR it's gonna be "remain clear of Bravo" for all my brothers, as you would expect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  24. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    What exactly was the Clearance you got? Was that heading assigned on the ground to fly after departure? Or did they vector you to it after departure? What was your assigned altitude? Was it below mountain?
     
  25. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    I second these questions. It sounds a lot like the infamous "magic words" boilerplate was maybe misunderstood, in which case I feel his pain.
     
  26. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    That's bonkers, and quite infuriating.. so do they make the Southwest guys jump through the same hoops and play musical mountains, or they actually treat them with a modicum of respect?
     
  27. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    The only rude controllers I've ever talked to were PHX. I used to fly to California quite a bit, and they had a habit of turning eastbound traffic SE towards Gila Bend, then spewing " you're out of my cover area, squawk VFR frequency change approved" after they PUT you there. In short, you're with ABQ center, hand off PHX then back to ABQ center or Tuscon APP if heading back to Texas. Could never get a Class B transition landing any of the outlying fields - the corridors weren't handy or I would have used them.
     
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  28. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Cleared for Takeoff

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    Do you remember how long ago that was? After the crash in the Sups, this was supposed to be improved.

    I have occasionally been cleared through the Bravo in the past 3 years. A sort of inverse problem which drives my son crazy is for a while they would give you a clearance which required going through the Bravo, but not say the magic words “you are cleared into Bravo”. Though even that seems better lately.
     
  29. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    A number of years ago two CAP pilots with a combined total of 50,000 flight hours did the same thing on a night orientation flight. One of them was showing the G1000 in a CAP plane to the other. Heck, may have been the same mountain. The air, much more so than the sea, is unforgiving of inattention, or something like that...
     
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  30. mryan75

    mryan75 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Some pilots who easily have the skill and intelligence to do so simply have no interest in the IR, even some who do a lot of cross-country flying. I could never understand why.
     
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  31. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That crash is puzzling because the G1000 has a feature that shows potentially conflicting terrain in yellow or red.
     
  32. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    well....that there is a prollum. :eek:
     
  33. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    It's been a couple of years, but was AFTER the SUP MTN crash ... reason I remember was that my Tiger was scheduled for work with the gentlemen that passed in that accident.

    In my area, there might be one flyable IMC day per year ... the others contain ice, lightning or severe microburst activity ... I rather be UNDER looking for downpour activity rather than IN with a time delayed weather depiction.
     
  34. dbahn

    dbahn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    As someone who has had the IR for 35 years I can assure you that the rating itself is no assurance that you can file IFR. There's currency and proficiency that needs to be maintained, including current charts (which admittedly is easy now with Foreflight but was often a problem with paper subscriptions for a limited area and no time to get them by mail). Also, with the IR you are exposed to some hazards like ice and embedded thunderstorms that you likely wouldn't be if VFR.
     
  35. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Two things:

    1.) No one is claiming that talking to ATC guarantees safety.. however, in general, being in contact with ATC does give you some options you wouldn't have outside of contact.. there are many examples out there with ATC going above and beyond to help stricken planes.. even if that comfort is purely psychological, having your wits about you has a material impact on the safety of flight

    2.) Having an IR is not a guarantee of safety either, however, someone who has an IR rating, has demonstrably gone through more training than someone VFR only.. and if they're on a flight plan they're likely spending most of their time on an airway, not dodging airspaces and flying by the wits of their pants


    https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2018/media/SE_Topic_18-11.pdf
    -60% to 70% of CFIT pilots did not hold an instrument rating
    ^great article. and shows that IFR is no proof of safety for sure, however many of the IFR accidents are related to IFR procedural mistakes, etc.
     
  36. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    I'm right there with you..

    You are not required to fly IN the clouds when you are IFR and if you don't like what you see out the window you speak up.. you can fly VMC IFR and you are blessed with, for free:

    -someone on the other end of the radio who can
    --help you find alternates
    --will give you priority handling in an emergency
    --knows where you are (at least roughly), and can send help if you go MIA

    -you have additional training on precision flying
    -you have additional training on reading charts, interpreting weather, etc.
    -to be legal you are maintaining additional currency standards that you won't have just doing the 90 day landings thing
    -not dodging airspace
    -some additional traffic advisories
    -can fly published procedures that will keep you safe from obstacles

    ^you miss out on all those things when not talking to anyone. And if you have an issue you are stuck scrambling for frequencies. You *can* be flight following.. but in my experience flight following is nice but you get nowhere near the level of service as you do when IFR.. several times I've been forgotten. Flight following is load limited
     
  37. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Fine, you buttmunches do what you want. I didn't want to talk to you anyway.

    {stomps off in a huff...kicks dog on the way out
     
  38. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Five years ago I would have agreed with Dan. But since moving here three years ago I have been pleasantly surprised by how accommodating PHX has been. Several times I've gotten Bravo clearances for a direct VFR route, without even asking for it. This is despite the additional burden on ATC from the recent proliferation of local puppy mill schools and their solo ESL students. :confused: Some of those controllers have the patience of Job.
     
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  39. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The day I got my instrument rating, I suddenly realized that I was now licensed to fly into all kinds of trouble!
     
  40. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Plenty of VFR and non instrument rated people fly into situations they shouldn't be in

    Most GA accidents are not IFR related..

    to assert that instrument flying is more dangerous because you are legally allowed to fly into a cloud is dubious