Choosing the plane for Winter mountain trips

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SilencewOw

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SilencewOw
Hello guys. I’ve read several threads at this forum so decided to register and ask advice for myself. That’s regarding the future plane pick.

My name is Mike, I’m from Southern California. I’m only about to start my PPL, but I was thinking before the start - to identify the airplane I will aim after getting my PPL and instrument rating. If I know it will be some Piper - I will go and start learning on Piper, if that will be Cessna then I will study on Cessna. First of all does this logic even make any sense or even if I will aim to get some Piper after getting the license studying on Cessna is absolutely not a problem?

The hardest task I want to be able to accomplish with my future airplane- is to be able to get 4 people including myself for a ski trips to Utah and Colorado.

Based on what I expect it will be approximately 900-1000lb of weight and the distance from the airport I’m planning to base (Long Beach Airport (LGB)) to Salt Lake City 511Nm and to Aspen is 635nm
I read at this forum that Aspen is a very tricky airport to land and I will consider any reasonable alternative to keep the safety as a number one priority. Couldn’t find any info on how difficult Salt Lake City is.

I’m planning to share the plane with my friend and we have a budget around $300k. If that’s not enough to get something safe for the above mentioned task we will save more:)

Any advices or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
 
Going to need more money, or adjust requirements.
Aspen is not that tough to get into, but during most of the ski season there will not be parking space available, but if there is, you'll need more money for that too.
 
Please let me know what is the entry level planes for this type of task, so I could take a look and understand amount of money needed. I was looking into p210n. Why won’t it handle the task?
there are a lot of them around $300k.

Malibu from 80s is a little more expensive but possible to buy before getting to 400ss
Please let me know what am I missing.

Thanks
 
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You will have a very hard time getting insurance for any pressurized plane as a fresh private pilot in today's insurance market.
 
I totally get thinking about the future mission and what plane you want now, it's fun to do and I've been guilty of it myself. My advice though is to focus on getting your private and instrument tickets, piper vs cessna (or others) really doesn't matter and I don't see any reason to focus on trying to line that up now with what you'll buy in the future. Just pick one or the other and if you go with a piper now and wind up buying a cessna later there will be zero issues transitioning to a different manufacturer. The planes that will fit your mission later will likely require considerable transition training from a trainer anyways.
 
Also, buying a plane to get you from SoCal to these ski resorts in winter seems like a very limited perspective. The amount of times this will not be possible due to weather will be significant. You'd probably need a fiki aircraft just to consider it. Plus significant IFR experience.

Is this technically doable at some point in the future with a lot of experience and the right plane? Yes.

However, you are talking about a high performance aircraft flying over a lot of inhospitable terrain, in bad weather conditions. There are many pilots with a lot of experience who would not consider this on any kind of regular basis. Once in a while when the weather gods were feeling kindly, maybe.

If this is the reason you want to get your pilots license - i think you need to talk to some real pilots that can help you understand the reality of what you are contemplating.

Flying is one endeavor where having a lot of money only gets you and your friends killed quicker.
 
Super jealous of your mission and hypothetical airplane. Agree it's going to take a big budget, and even then, either a lot of alternate transportation/scrbbing of plans, or an expensive plane with rock solid FIKI.
I flew rt in an arrow HWD-TRK last Saturday. In the termional at Truckee I was speaking with the pilot flying a PC-12 who had elected to spend the prior night in Truckee because he'd been taking ice (mixed, don't know further details) and was easily clearing it off the wings, but it was accumulating on his tail.
Sounds scary to me, and I've suffered many a night in mountains, on the ground, when others turned back or didn't go.
 
Thank you for your replies. The winter mountain trips is not the only reason but a big dream to be able to do it. When you guys mention, I need to have a lot of ifr experience, what are we approximately speaking in terms of hours? I just want to understand how far down the line this can potentially start to happen.

Lndwarrior said:
The amount of times this will not be possible due to weather will be significant. You'd probably need a fiki aircraft just to consider it. Plus significant IFR experience.
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I was looking for only fiki aircraft’s for that reason. Do you mean even with the capable aircraft I still will be very limited to do it?

SFDukie said:
Agree it's going to take a big budget, and even then, either a lot of alternate transportation/scrbbing of plans, or an expensive plane with rock solid FIKI.
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What does it mean rock solid fiki? I thought it is either fiki or not. :)

And again what planes we talking hypothetically? Malibu or p210n won’t be enough? I don’t want to go fancy and want the plane to be as affordable as possible, but capable.

I understand that as a first plane that’s not a good idea in terms of insurance, thanks. But further down the line.

Again, many thanks to everyone.
 
There's a huge range of ice capability among FIKI planes. There's a reason everyone who wants to do this and can afford it has moved to SETP.
 
SilencewOw said:
Thank you for your replies. The winter mountain trips is not the only reason but a big dream to be able to do it. When you guys mention, I need to have a lot of ifr experience, what are we approximately speaking in terms of hours? I just want to understand how far down the line this can potentially start to happen.



I was looking for only fiki aircraft’s for that reason. Do you mean even with the capable aircraft I still will be very limited to do it?


What does it mean rock solid fiki? I thought it is either fiki or not. :)…
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I’m far from an expert on anti-icing systems. But I know that any airplane can get into a situation where its antiicing system can’t adequately deice in certain conditions.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/risk-management/de-icing-mods-increasing-utility/
 

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I make one or two ski trips a year from my home in southern Michigan to ski hills in Michigan’s upper peninsula, northern Wisconsin, and New York. I’d love to do more, but ski weather is usually the opposite of flying weather. I have about 1500 hours and a high performance plane, but my flights do not involve mountains.
If I owned a plane only to go skiing I’d end up flying about 5 hours a year.
 
bflynn said:
Or, a move out of California
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SilencewOw said:
If I know it will be some Piper - I will go and start learning on Piper, if that will be Cessna then I will study on Cessna. First of all does this logic even make any sense
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No.
SilencewOw said:
or even if I will aim to get some Piper after getting the license studying on Cessna is absolutely not a problem?
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Not a problem. An airplane is an airplane. You might need some transition training but you'll need a checkout in the new plane anyway, depending on the complexity (and insurance requirements). I learned in Cessnas and then started renting Pipers at a different airport with maybe an hour long checkout.

More of a problem is the idea of considering winter trips in the mountains without some serious IFR and mountain flying experience... and even then, you'd be cancelling often.
 
I remember a number of years ago when I shared a partnership in a Cardinal with an airline pilot with significant hours. We were talking and he told me he had scrubbed his trip from NorCal to LA (400 miles) because it would have been IMC most of the way. I was surprised by this. In my mind I thought this would be no big deal in our plane for an airline pilot.

"I'm not spending three hours in solid IMC in a single engine plane over bad terrain", he says. I still didn't understand his point until a number of years, and an instrument rating, later.

You asked how much time you will need to be able to make this flight. The answer really is, how much time and experience do you think you need before you are willing to risk killing your friends?

A high performance plane, an instrument rating with significant real IMC experience, mountain flying training.... 1000 hours, 2000 hours? 500 hours flying clear weather in SoCal, or laps around the pattern, isn't going to do it.

If you want to fly then fly. But you are starting out with an unrealistic goal.

Maybe sometime in the future, you get a clear weather window and are lucky enough to make the ski flight in whatever plane you are flying. Maybe not with your friends, though. Of course you may not be able to make it home on your schedule.

You have a lot to learn about general aviation, and its limits. If you stick with it you will look back on this post and realize the seriousness of what you were contemplating.
 
Don’t let the naysayers scare you. It IS possible, you just need to ease into it and get some experience. I’d work on your private and instrument, then re-assess once you have those.

You will know a lot more by that point. Plus, switching from Cessnas to Pipers, etc expands your skills.
 
I'd think that with the right equipment, meaning a FIKI plane that can get up over 20,000, you'd be wanting to have a hundred hours at a minimum of ACTUAL IMC. Not simulator, not with foggles, but actual IMC in bad weather perhaps even throw in some icing conditions. Ever flown commercially into KASE? It can be quite rough from your cruise altitude all the way down. I have found bad air in the mountains where directional control was difficult, and altitude was hard to keep within 500'. That was a VFR day.
 
I started flying in 2006, thought I would just be doing hamburger runs, in rental planes got the bug big time, and picked up most of the ratings, and have flown up to twin jets. Live in a SETP at the moment. Keep up the dream, but flying to a ski destination in your own plane safely and reliably is way down the road, and has no bearing on the plane that you are learning in at this stage of the game. Get some ratings, build some hours and enjoy the ride. My minimum equipment flying in the mountains year round would be a FIKI CIrrus, Mirage/M350, and Meridian, in rough order of cost and capability, and then upward from there as money and skill allow. But that mission is real graduate Level stuff. Winter conditions in the mountains is the roughest there is. Just take your time getting there, and get some real good training.
 
So to succinctly answer your question: Choosing the plane for Winter mountain trips

You want it to be something from Boeing or Airbus, flown by professional pilots.

At least that's what you want for the next 5-10 years, maybe longer. By all means, get a light plane, enjoy it, take it on trips appropriate for the weather and the aircraft...but don't be in a hurry to start making winter trips into the mountains in a light single.
 
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The above advice is well meant. Don’t be discouraged.

Good that you are starting your discovery. Keep it up. Enjoy.
 
For me this falls under the mountains, night, weather... Pick one rule. At least when it comes to piston GA.
 
SilencewOw said:
Hello guys. I’ve read several threads at this forum so decided to register and ask advice for myself. That’s regarding the future plane pick.

My name is Mike, I’m from Southern California. I’m only about to start my PPL, but I was thinking before the start - to identify the airplane I will aim after getting my PPL and instrument rating. If I know it will be some Piper - I will go and start learning on Piper, if that will be Cessna then I will study on Cessna. First of all does this logic even make any sense or even if I will aim to get some Piper after getting the license studying on Cessna is absolutely not a problem?

The hardest task I want to be able to accomplish with my future airplane- is to be able to get 4 people including myself for a ski trips to Utah and Colorado.

Based on what I expect it will be approximately 900-1000lb of weight and the distance from the airport I’m planning to base (Long Beach Airport (LGB)) to Salt Lake City 511Nm and to Aspen is 635nm
I read at this forum that Aspen is a very tricky airport to land and I will consider any reasonable alternative to keep the safety as a number one priority. Couldn’t find any info on how difficult Salt Lake City is.

I’m planning to share the plane with my friend and we have a budget around $300k. If that’s not enough to get something safe for the above mentioned task we will save more:)

Any advices or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
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It's a wonderful life goal to be able to fly yourself and your family/friends into a picturesque ski resort in your own plane.
It's also not something I think you're going to be doing for the foreseeable future.

There's about 1000 different ways a new pilot from sunny SoCal could end up in serious, life-threatening trouble flying a piston plane into Aspen/Telluride/... during the winter. There's a whole lotta stuff you'll learn between now and getting your license that will reinforce that.

My guess is you're going to have at least 1 transition plane between PPL and the time you're able to get insured on a plane that will feasibly let you accomplish that mission. Just a guess.
 
I have an IR. I have a friend who is a retired airline pilot. He and I are both not instrument current for a reason. If I had to fly across the state in IMC, I'd drive. Too much work involved in single pilot IFR. Way too much work. I admire your goal, but as you learn more you'll probably come to the same conclusion. GaryM gave the best advice. Re-read it and I suspect you will follow it. I don't want to squash your goals, but I know that his advice is what I'd do, as well. And, frankly, it's probably cheaper in the long run, as well.
 
I have a bias for a Seneca for this mission. Many have FIKI and no problem with the altitude. A decent Seneca 3 fits your budget to buy.

SLC is not really hard, but it is a moderately busy Class B so you'll want to be IFR and bring your A game. Don't know anything about Aspen

But the insurance company might not like you very much with that low time. An IR and Multi rating and at least a few hundred hours might be the minimum ticket (but still pricey for the first year).
 
The learning curve is extremely steep and possibly deadly for what you intend to do. You need to learn how to fly first. Then gain gradual experience in environments you can handle as a fledgling pilot. Flying is extremely unforgiving. One you have flown consistently for several years you will have a better understanding of what plane may fit your mission. Asking Geoge Washington what kind of car I should buy doesn't make much sense.
 
Earn your private. Consider buying a 4 seater to fly and earn your IFR. Then fly as much IFR in the system as you can. Weather can change. Be prepared to get a hotel or rental car due to unexpected weather.

Whatever you buy afterwards will likely be driven by your experience and needs.
 
Kobe Jones had a practically unlimited flying money budget. I didn’t know him but I knew his pilot.

I’ve been flying since 19 and owned airplanes for decades. I worked 10-15 a to ates in the Midwest or Midwest adjacent in my non- FIKi turbo mooney. I have an IFR rating and have a healthy amount of real IMC weather experience. I’ve encountered insane turbulence, lightning storms, freezing rain, landed in snow covered runways in Green Bay, braking action:poor in Minnesota, lost an engine in flight, ferried airplanes with sputtering engines by surprise, and by my calculation I’ve more than used up my nine lives.

Intentionally flying into snowy/ icy weather ? With loved ones?

I wouldn’t do it in a king air. I’d not do it in a citation. Heck, if I had frivolous money I’d not do it in a golf stream.

Kobe’s pilot knew he was doing something stupid. The ceilings were low. He knew it was crap. He called for special VFR. He was a professional pilot. Granted - he was NOT ifr current. Neither was the helicopter. The. Part 135 operation, island express, which is pretty despicable, didn’t have permission to fly IFR- and still the dispatcher said go ahead.

Choosing a TINK or DOINK to intentionally fly into snowy weather just for pleasure seems to me like taunting the angry gods and pleading for an RFK Jr. moment- and neither he nor Ara the Kobe pilot were facing freezing weather.

If you’re going to spend $300k of skrillah on a fancy airplane to learn in, I agree with others who say the insurance company will get a chunk of it in premiums.

Stay frosty….
 
You might want a twin for your mission tbh. I know I’d be much more comfortable in IMC over mountains if I had two engines. I second most of the advice here, get your PPL first and then gain experience by renting or buying appropriate planes (you can buy, fly and sell moving up the aircraft ladder without much losses since these planes hold value well) before thinking of your ultimate mission plane. Depending on how much time you can dedicate to flying, you are years away from doing what you’re intending to do. By then, things will have changed like financially (you may have a budget of $1M by then) or otherwise (screw skiing, I want to become a beach bum in Cabos). Regarding training in Cessna vs. Piper, it doesn’t matter. I learned in a Cessna and now I own a HP, complex Piper. In the meantime I owned anything from a glorified kite, to a Cessna 150, Piper Cherokee and now the Comanche, upgrading as skill and bank account allowed.
 
If you get into this with your primary passion being aviation; and transportation being a “side benefit” when weather allows, that’s the correct attitude.

If you just want reliable transportation, and are not so passionate about aviation, just charter a PC12 or something. Trust me, it will be cheaper and less time consuming.
 
I wouldn't even take a FIKI piston single over the Sierras in IMC over the winter. An acquaintance of mine shredded his FIKI Cirrus over Sugarbowl Mountain trying to do that several years ago. Didn't work out too well for him. At least they said he died quickly.

One of the reasons I bought a Turbo Arrow for my first airplane was because, on paper, I could make 16K MEA's over the mountains. In practice, I have no problem flying up and down the valley in solid IMC at 6K. Above that? Forget it. I had a bad encounter with ice once before and I almost bit the big one. Never again.
 
Here you go.. I live in and fly around the Southern California area for the last 10+ years

-Centurion, get one with ice protection
--pros: very stable, honestly flies like a big heavy 172. The biggest learning curve will be learning to slow it down in your descents and getting used to the heavy pitch control forces. Decently fast, I know this is sacrilege but it is faster and more comfortable than a bonanza. That is just facts

--cons: it's a single engine piston. You can probably get four people in it and find room for skis but I wouldn't depend on it as an all-weather airplane. A nice one can still be close to half a million dollars.

-Aztec, got one with ice protection
--pros, big six comfortable seats, plenty of luggage both in a forward and aft compartment, dirt cheap price of entry. As respectable speeds at least 150 knots. I typically see closer to 165 true. You have two engines so you have a layer of redundancy and more time for options over inhospitable terrain. The wings are fat and forgiving. You have crazy useful load typically around 2,000 lb or just under depending on options

--cons: be prepared to spend triple the maintenance as you would on a single. While the Aztec is a big friendly happy dopey Cherokee you will still need to be proficient flying multi


Either that or a 182. I continue to be unimpressed by the bonanza's overall comfort and take off and climb performance with any kind of elevation.

I saw above a few mentions around the bigger six place Piper singles, unless you're looking at an older Cherokee 6, lance, or some saratoga's, I would skip the more higher performance ones. They have crappy useful load and it's a more niche product that will be frustrating to maintain. The Lance is my favorite and most rugged of the big Piper singles.
 
SilencewOw said:
Thank you guys, really appreciate the feedback. Hopefully will come back soon with questions, what first plane to buy after getting ppl;)
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:cheerswine:

You might want to read through this thread, https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...dakota-9-dead-3-survivors-cfiblizzard.122932/ and the reference links, to get some idea of what can happen with snow/ice, a bit too much load, and a desire to get home. This was in the daytime and without mountains, so your desired mission could be much riskier.

Small planes are not airliners. Think of a small boat versus an ocean liner in terms of weather and sea conditions. Small planes are fun and have some utility, but you have to consider flying opportunities in much the same way a small boat owner thinks of boating opportunities. Keep in mind that the sky is even less forgiving of mistakes than the sea.

And as others have said, the make of airplane you use for training won't matter much. I trained in Tecnam LSAs, transitioned into Piper rentals, now own a Beech. It's like learning to drive in a Ford sedan and then transitioning to a Chevy van or a Miata. A bit different, some things to learn, but the core skills carry over.
 
Charter a plane and pilot it's cheaper and a lot more safe, you can't do it yourself a few times a year cheaper and safer than charter.
 
SilencewOw said:
Hello guys. I’ve read several threads at this forum so decided to register and ask advice for myself. That’s regarding the future plane pick.

My name is Mike, I’m from Southern California. I’m only about to start my PPL, but I was thinking before the start - to identify the airplane I will aim after getting my PPL and instrument rating. If I know it will be some Piper - I will go and start learning on Piper, if that will be Cessna then I will study on Cessna. First of all does this logic even make any sense or even if I will aim to get some Piper after getting the license studying on Cessna is absolutely not a problem?

The hardest task I want to be able to accomplish with my future airplane- is to be able to get 4 people including myself for a ski trips to Utah and Colorado.

Based on what I expect it will be approximately 900-1000lb of weight and the distance from the airport I’m planning to base (Long Beach Airport (LGB)) to Salt Lake City 511Nm and to Aspen is 635nm
I read at this forum that Aspen is a very tricky airport to land and I will consider any reasonable alternative to keep the safety as a number one priority. Couldn’t find any info on how difficult Salt Lake City is.

I’m planning to share the plane with my friend and we have a budget around $300k. If that’s not enough to get something safe for the above mentioned task we will save more:)

Any advices or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
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You ask a valid question that many new to aviation have. Your scenario is an aircraft at max gross weight flying at high altitude, in a mountainous area with icing conditions. There is a lot of variables that go in to managing the risk for a flight like this beyond a FIKI airplane. Pilot training and experience on the top of that list.
 
If you own a plane, some years, the weather and maintenance issues will conspire to keep you from flying when you had big plans. But that is what back up refundable airline tickets are for. Is it really practical to make a last minute spontaneous ski trip to aspen? Or is it one of those things you have to plan way out in advance?
 
I’ve flown in both Cessna and Piper’s and I like both of them, but I’m more of a Piper fan.

I would not fly in IMC in the winter, if there is a thin layer to break through, fine, but you won’t want to be doing approaching with icing conditions. But again if the layer is thin maybe but I would just wait for VFR days and fly then.

I went to Aspen and flew in and out of there with an instructor, wasn’t difficult, it was difficult to see the airport from above yes but I have that issue with any new airport.

How much do you 4 weigh? And are you brining equipment or renting? 4 people airplanes are not generally for 4 people especially if you have luggage.
 
mandm said:
How much do you 4 weigh? And are you brining equipment or renting? 4 people airplanes are not generally for 4 people especially if you have luggage.
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A 6 place is really a 4 place with a couple bags. A 4 place is really a 2 place with bags.

Least that's how I think of it if we're talking adults.
 
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