Checkrides : Verbose or Not?

cipio

cipio

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I realize I have a long time to go before I really have to start thinking about a checkride, but I have been watching a lot of checkride videos.

I've seen some checkride training videos (King for example) where the "student" is very verbose. Literally telling the examiner everything they are thinking, and what they are doing (and sometimes why) as they are doing it.

I have seen other checkrides where the student is super quiet, does what is asked, but doesn't elaborate verbally along the way.

I could definitely see pro/cons to either approach. There seems to be a consensus that in the oral portion of the practical evaluation you should only answer the question that is asked and no more (because it opens you up to more opportunity for mistake or error).

Does that same logic apply to the checkride, or is being verbose a good technique to demonstrate understanding of the maneuver to limit the amount of digging that the examiner has to do to see what you are thinking as you perform it? Or will the examiner tell you what he/she wants from you?
 
Can't say which is better someone else can chime in on that. When I went through mine I talked my way through all of the maneuvers. My thought at the time was even if I don't execute it perfectly he knows that I know and have committed to memory all of the steps. Almost like a mental check list. Whether this helped or not I don't know.

Should also add back then the planes I flew (172) didn't have headsets so it was a little noisier in the cockpit.
 
Examiner: "Do you have the current TAFs?"

Applicant: "I have a binder here of all the weather, including a map of today's TFRs along with my notes from the weather briefer"

Examiner: "Do you have the current TAFs?"

Applicant: "I also have a printout of all the METARs for every airport in a 100 mile radius along with the area forecast text and charts, plus winds aloft."

Examiner: "Do you have the current TAFs?"

Applicant: "Yes"

Examiner: "Thank-you, let's review them."

It's good to be prepared but in general just answer the question they ask. If you start answering a bunch of questions they didn't ask then A) You might annoy them or give the impression you can't focus, or B: Open up all sorts of other questions you didn't intend to bring up.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Examiner: "Do you have the current TAFs?"

Applicant: "I have a binder here of all the weather, including a map of today's TFRs along with my notes from the weather briefer"

Examiner: "Do you have the current TAFs?"

Applicant: "I also have a printout of all the METARs for every airport in a 100 mile radius along with the area forecast text and charts, plus winds aloft."

Examiner: "Do you have the current TAFs?"

Applicant: "Yes"

Examiner: "Thank-you, let's review them."

It's good to be prepared but in general just answer the question they ask. If you start answering a bunch of questions they didn't ask then A) You might annoy them or give the impression you can't focus, or B) Open up all sorts of other questions you didn't intend to bring up.
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That's a great reminder.

However, I am thinking about times when you aren't asked specific questions, but just told to do a maneuver.
 
DFH65 said:
My thought at the time was even if I don't execute it perfectly he knows that I know and have committed to memory all of the steps. Almost like a mental check list.
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That's sorta why I was thinking it might be a good practice.
 
Tell them what you are doing. Make it in statement form. They are your first passenger. Tell them things that make them feel safe. Where are we? We are crossing this river here, see the bend use the map. We are in position with that town there. We are coming up on crossing hwy 36 there. Point to the map and out the window. Great divert to Brenham. Ok we are going to that black strip over there.
(Pointed it out 17 miles away) Ok now divert to Huntsville. Be in command. Make them feel safe.
 
yetti said:
Tell them what you are doing. Make it in statement form. They are your first passenger. Tell them things that make them feel safe... Be in command. Make them feel safe.
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That is a great way to look at it!
 
cipio said:
That's a great reminder.

However, I am thinking about times when you aren't asked specific questions, but just told to do a maneuver.
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In that case think out loud. If you see you're a bit low say that you see this and what you're doing to correct it. If you say nothing the DPE will likely assume you didn't see it and thus weren't watching the instruments.

If you drop 120 feet on a steep turn but call this out and talk the DPE through what you're doing to correct it and bring the altitude back up they'll likely let it pass since you're demonstrating situational awareness and control of the airplane. If you say nothing they'll likely say "you dropped out of the practical test standards on that turn..."
 
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rocketflyer84's post about the repeated questions is an excellent illustration one of the two problems with the verbose student on the oral portion - not getting round to answering the question. That can be more of a problem that it seems since it can lead the wrong Examiner to think you have no mental discipline and can't focus. Not a failure item, but that kind of an impression can make a close case move in the wrong direction.

The other downside is saying too much and ultimately going from a correct answer to what was asked to a wrong answer to what wasn't.

Examiners tend to be very good, by nature, training or experience, in asking follow-ups to get the information they want. There are exceptions (most of us think we are the exception when we are not), but for most of us (at least until you get to the "teach me..." stage of a CFI oral), the best course for most questions is the same advice lawyers give their witnesses - understand the question, answer the question, and don't volunteer.

...and that's advice from one who - even my friends here can tell you - tends to be very verbose.

His other post about talking through maneuvers is also spot-on. Some studies even suggest that self-talk during all phases of flight enhances safety and enforces procedural SOPs.
 
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I'd keep it simple, speak when spoken to and answer any questions as directly as possible. Going off on a tangent or trying to over-explain your answers could get you in over your head...

Same goes when flying, you only need to speak to acknowledge something the examiner has said or to answer a question, or ask a question for clarification. If you screw something up, don't act like it didn't happen. Acknowledge and take action to correct. The examiner does not need to sit there wondering "is he so far behind the plane he does not know he is 300' high?"
 
Even while flying today I still talk things through out loud.
 
My method was talk if something doesn't seem 100% right, so that the examiner knows you notice it. For instance, if your altitude drifts a bit, or maybe you are doing a turn about a point and you are moving in on the center too much. Mention you recognize it and what you are doing to try and fix it.

I don't think anyone expects you to be the perfect pilot up there, they just want to see you are safe. Showing you know when something isn't 100% shows you recognize certain situations. But I see no need to talk your way through every single thing. He/She knows the maneuvers, and if you are doing them properly, you got them.
 
FlyingIsGood said:
I do the same. Hadn't flown in a long time, but it was automatic when I got in the left seat.
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Part of why I have been thinking about this is because I am at a position in my training (ie the beginning) that I can build in some behaviors. I was considering training myself to verbalize as I go, both when learning with my CFI - so she can pinpoint missed steps - and when I solo for my own reference. I will be recording my flights (as often as I can) so I think the verbalization would be helpful for any after-action review.

However, if I verbalize early on, and consistently build that into my process, then that's likely to be what I'll do on the check-ride - even if I didn't plan on it (in times of stress you revert to back to your training).

I just thought it would be worth polling here since I haven't started yet. When watching check rides with verbose students, it seems like a better experience because the examiner seems to know where you're at (thinking) all the time. When they are not verbose, it seems like the examiner has to pull info with statements like "Why did you do that? Did you do this? Did you see that?
 
If you're doing anything unusual, verbalize it so it doesn't look like a mistake.

"I'm descending really rapidly to keep terrain clearance through the pass and duck under Class B right after."
 
Personally, I took the approach of treating the DPE like an interested non-pilot pax or new student pilot that I was mentoring.

I just did what I do on the job with new hires or customers and verbally walked them through everything: what I did, why it's important, and what I was thinking at the time. All in my "expert" voice.

Worked out well for me, but I knew going into it that the DPE thought very highly of my post-flight debriefs and used my mock oral as an example for other club members.
 
cipio said:
Part of why I have been thinking about this is because I am at a position in my training (ie the beginning) that I can build in some behaviors. I was considering training myself to verbalize as I go, both when learning with my CFI - so she can pinpoint missed steps - and when I solo for my own reference. I will be recording my flights (as often as I can) so I think the verbalization would be helpful for any after-action review.

However, if I verbalize early on, and consistently build that into my process, then that's likely to be what I'll do on the check-ride - even if I didn't plan on it (in times of stress you revert to back to your training).

I just thought it would be worth polling here since I haven't started yet. When watching check rides with verbose students, it seems like a better experience because the examiner seems to know where you're at (thinking) all the time. When they are not verbose, it seems like the examiner has to pull info with statements like "Why did you do that? Did you do this? Did you see that?
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When my CFI would train me in some maneuver or procedure, he'd explain it aloud as he went through it, and then have me repeat all the steps back to him as I was about to execute them. I suppose that is what got me in the habit.

CFI: "Turn to a heading of 210 while maintaining a 500fpm descent."

ME: "I'm going to turn to a heading of 210 while maintaining a 500fpm descent... Coming out of the turn, descending at 1200fpm, airspeed rising, oh ****! Wings level... Pulling back on the yoke... There's 500fpm again... <whew>... Like butter!"

:wink2:
 
cipio said:
However, if I verbalize early on, and consistently build that into my process, then that's likely to be what I'll do on the check-ride - even if I didn't plan on it (in times of stress you revert to back to your training).
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Talking through your actions is also very important while working with your CFI, especially on things like landings where there's a lot going on.

Call out your RPM, flap, and airspeed settings, aim point on the runway and targeted exit taxiway, crosswind correction control inputs, etc.... plus any deviations observed on such points and the action taken to correct them.

"I'm 10kts fast on the decent, pitching nose up momentarily to bleed off a bit of airspeed..." This helps the CFI know what you're thinking. A lot of times the most important thing in getting students to work through challenges like nailing landings is just getting them to verbalize their actions.

New students tend to say very little and are too quick on the controls just jerking them all over the place... to someone in the right seat watching such a nervous display it's not clear at all what's going in your head other than than that you're not in control of the situation.

Same goes for things like cross country flying. You create the VFR flight plan and wind correction angles but an instructor is looking for you to have situational awareness, not just blindly following the numbers on paper. They're looking for you to say things like: "I observe based on landmarks that we're drifting slightly off course even though I'm maintaining my calculated heading. I've re-cross checked the DG with the compass. It appears that the wind may be a bit stronger than forecasted so I will try adding a few extra degrees of crosswind correction and re-evaluate our track."

Of course if you do this in your head and don't say anything the person in the right seat (CFI or DPE) might say "check you're heading... what heading are you supposed to be flying?"
 
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Also, you might want to wait until you get a feel for how your CFI handles those kinds of calls. Make a mental note to repeat everything back if he/she doesn't have you do it.

If you make it a habit before you get into a flow with your CFI, you may get stuck having to unlearn something and readjust it to what your CFI expects - which could potentially take more time and/or cause some unwanted confusion.
 
FlyingIsGood said:
Also, you might want to wait until you get a feel for how your CFI handles those kinds of calls. Make a mental note to repeat everything back if he/she doesn't have you do it.

If you make it a habit before you get into a flow with your CFI, you may get stuck having to unlearn something and readjust it to what your CFI expects - which could potentially take more time and/or cause some unwanted confusion.
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Good news is that it'll start with the CFI.
 
As an examiner I wanted to know what was going through the applicant's mind. If an action they were taking didn't fit into my little box of methods, having the applicant talk it out sometimes opened my eyes to a better (or different) but not wrong method.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
As an examiner I wanted to know what was going through the applicant's mind. If an action they were taking didn't fit into my little box of methods, having the applicant talk it out sometimes opened my eyes to a better (or different) but not wrong method.



Bob Gardner
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Great insight. Thanks, Bob!
 
Look at the top of this "Pilot Training" sub-forum for the sticky post "Captain Levy's Checkride Advice"

From that he offers:
14. Avoid this conversation:
Examiner - Q: Do you have a pencil?

Applicant - A: I have a #2, a mechanical, a red one...

Examiner - Q: Do you have a pencil?

Applicant - A: I also have an assortment of pens, and some highlighters...

Examiner - Q: Do you have a pencil?

Applicant - A: Yes.

Examiner - Thank you.​
One of the hardest things to do when you’re nervous and pumped up is to shut up and answer the question. I've watched people talk themselves into a corner by incorrectly answering a question that was never asked, or by adding an incorrect appendix to the correct answer to the question that was. If the examiner wants more, he'll tell you.​
 
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MAKG1 said:
If you're doing anything unusual, verbalize it so it doesn't look like a mistake.

"I'm descending really rapidly to keep terrain clearance through the pass and duck under Class B right after while I fly through the train tunnel to avoid that black attack helicopter that appeared on my six."
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slight correction
 
midlifeflyer said:
Some studies even suggest that self-talk during all phases of flight enhances safety and enforces procedural SOPs.
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Makes sense as my CFI's encouraged me to verbalize all parts of the IFR approach briefing, missed approach procedure, what I'm going to do when I cross the next waypoint and the one after that, GUMPS, and more.
 
murphey said:
I always talk to myself. And most of the time, lose the arguments.
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Worse is when they learn harmony.

Or, they go silent and you start worrying about what evil doing they are planning.
 
In general, in any examination or audit situation, from an IRS audit to an A380 checkride it's probably best to give short, honest, and direct answers to the examiner.

In the case of airplanes, I do think it's important to verbalize when something is out of parameters, for example: "I'm 75 feet low and correcting".
 
When asked a question, answer it, and stop. If the examiner wants to hear more, s/he'll ask you to elucidate. Otherwise, you're taking a pointless risk by potentially giving a wrong answer to a question which was not asked and would never have been asked.
 
cipio said:
However, I am thinking about times when you aren't asked specific questions, but just told to do a maneuver.
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Then (unless it's an instructor practical test), just do the maneuver. Now, I've had a lot of students who do better on maneuvers if they talk themselves through the maneuver, and that's fine. However, for a Private Pilot ride, there's nothing to be gained and much to be lost (either by saying something incorrect or distracting yourself from the performance of the maneuver) if you start talking about the maneuver unnecessarily. So if what you will say will help you do the maneuver better, go ahead, but otherwise, focus on the task at hand, which is flying the maneuver, not talking about it.
 
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cipio said:
I realize I have a long time to go before I really have to start thinking about a checkride, but I have been watching a lot of checkride videos.

I've seen some checkride training videos (King for example) where the "student" is very verbose. Literally telling the examiner everything they are thinking, and what they are doing (and sometimes why) as they are doing it.

I have seen other checkrides where the student is super quiet, does what is asked, but doesn't elaborate verbally along the way.

I could definitely see pro/cons to either approach. There seems to be a consensus that in the oral portion of the practical evaluation you should only answer the question that is asked and no more (because it opens you up to more opportunity for mistake or error).

Does that same logic apply to the checkride, or is being verbose a good technique to demonstrate understanding of the maneuver to limit the amount of digging that the examiner has to do to see what you are thinking as you perform it? Or will the examiner tell you what he/she wants from you?
Click to expand...

Different people are different, as long as the examiner walks away with the impression that you are safe, that is all that matters. Rule of thumb is less said the better.
 
I agree with others on keeping it simple. Give the examiner the answer with nothing more and nothing less. If he wants more from you he'll ask.
 
I went in with the only answer the question asked mentality and it was not what the examiner seemed to like. So eventually I just started throwing in extra info and that didn't seem to work either then I went back to making the DPE keep asking more questions on the same topic.

Honestly I'd just try to read him if he's getting aggravated with terse answers flesh them out a little bit more, but don't hang yourself.
 
I talk through the maneuvers when I fly, so I did the same on my checkride. I figure the guy is flying with new, completely green pilots all the time, and it might put him at ease knowing my thought processes on each maneuver. Plus, if I go a bit outside PTS standards, I'm already talking and can verbalize my correction.

Plus I fly better when I talk to myself. But that's just me. :)
 
During the oral I took the less is more approach and only expanded my answers when he asked. There were some questions that were somewhat open ended where I had to expand some, one or two that I was totally wrong,but he allowed me to keep talking till I hit on the correct answer. Before the flight portion he told me pretty much what he was going to do, so there weren't MANY surprises. I would explain what I was doing only when I felt like I might be getting close to the standards, a time or two really. Don't know if it was planned or not, but the next to the last thing he had me do was hood work. I don't remember why, but I was pretty low when he had me recovery from the hood, he told me to take him back to the airport and we would do the landings there. I actually REALLY got lost going back. I confessed to him immediately when I realized I didn't know where I was. He chuckled and said, " ok, what are you gonna do"? So I started to climb and made a slow turn, quickly figured out where I was, told him and off we went. He never made me nervous. Truth be told, I totally blew my soft field and said so. He told me that , no it wasn't the best, but is was within standards. I absolutely believe he gave me that one. So, I did both.
 
mikeinbama said:
Truth be told, I totally blew my soft field and said so. He told me that , no it wasn't the best, but is was within standards. I absolutely believe he gave me that one.
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Great story. I think that someone who had a rough attempt and KNOWS it is much safer than someone who had a rough attempt and thinks they nailed it. :)
 
Also don't correct the DPE multiple times or at all.

I made that mistake and had a can of whoop a$$ opened up on me. :mad2:
 
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