CFIs, have you ever had to tell a student to quit flight training?

Thank you all for the replies @jesse right ! 75 knots is not slow flight but that is where he had me do this ! He is new ! but a good friend So I have opted not to salvage the situation but have a new instructor who has about a 1000 hours in instructing & 1400 hours of flying finding instructors in my neck of the woods is no big issue ! To me I thought, my asking a CFI "are you sure " was not a safety issue and to be fired for that via an email did not make any sense
 
75 as slow flight?

I might fly that fast with 10 deg flaps in a 172 on base. Final with full flaps closer to 60. It's not slow flight if the stall warning isn't sounding.

I think you've made the right decision. It sounds like this guy may be trouble as an instructor.
 
Aviator1945 said:
Thank you all for the replies @jesse right ! 75 knots is not slow flight but that is where he had me do this ! He is new ! but a good friend So I have opted not to salvage the situation but have a new instructor who has about a 1000 hours in instructing & 1400 hours of flying finding instructors in my neck of the woods is no big issue ! To me I thought, my asking a CFI "are you sure " was not a safety issue and to be fired for that via an email did not make any sense
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I am glad to read that you were able to easily find another instructor. My daughter wanted to do some flying in the Mendocino area of California and when her instructor left was not able to find another.
 
MAKG1 said:
75 as slow flight?

I might fly that fast with 10 deg flaps in a 172 on base. Final with full flaps closer to 60. It's not slow flight if the stall warning isn't sounding.

I think you've made the right decision. It sounds like this guy may be trouble as an instructor.
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I hope not ! Yes true it's not slow flight when stall warning is not sounding I am pretty good at slow flights, Steep turns (don't lose much altitude, ) it's only when I come into land at times I seem to flare higher than I should but I think i have finally gotten the hang of it .
thanks !
 
Warrior said:
I am glad to read that you were able to easily find another instructor. My daughter wanted to do some flying in the Mendocino area of California and when her instructor left was not able to find another.
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Try calling NAFI for referral to local CFIs.
 
Warrior said:
In my corner of the world CFIs who are willing to help at a moderate fee are not very common. So if you can find a CFI who works out better, more power to you. If you can't then I think that perhaps the delicate ego can be worked with.
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That's generally the gamble with unknown personalities. After a while, I'd occasionally go out of my way to do something undeniably better than the CFI that was getting too high and mighty on a BFR. They don't usually like that too much....
 
Warrior said:
I am glad to read that you were able to easily find another instructor. My daughter wanted to do some flying in the Mendocino area of California and when her instructor left was not able to find another.
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Well, KLLR is really isolated.

Perhaps it's worth it to drive over to Ukiah? Yeah, I know. Long mountain road drive. But it's a far less isolated airport.
 
MAKG1 said:
I might fly that fast with 10 deg flaps in a 172 on base. Final with full flaps closer to 60. It's not slow flight if the stall warning isn't sounding.
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Slow flight is flight at any speed less than normal cruise speed.
 
Not if you're looking for a sign-off here. My POH lists long-range cruise, maximum range cruise or maximum endurance speed in that category long before we talk about slow flight.

dmspilot said:
Slow flight is flight at any speed less than normal cruise speed.
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There's various degrees of slow flight in the range below cruise speed, on down to MCA, all of which should all be mastered by every pilot.
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, KLLR is really isolated.

Perhaps it's worth it to drive over to Ukiah? Yeah, I know. Long mountain road drive. But it's a far less isolated airport.
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Thanks for the suggestion. This was a few years ago, now she is in New York City!
 
Another great thread. This may be of interests from a student's perspective. I had my fourth lesson today--stalls. I've been studying everyday for two month for at least 2 hours a day. Some times five hours a day between watching videos and online ground training. I joined my local EAA chapter. I listen to the ATC tower app four times a week, sometimes more than an hour at a time. I consumed myself with learning to fly and getting my PPL.

I stayed up until 2:00 am doing stalls on my simulator and chair flying stalls with various cockpit videos on You Tube. I can get into and out of stalls in my mind like breathing.

My CFI introduces me to aspects of flight unaware that I've covered them ad nauseam at home sometimes weeks before. I studied magnetos for two hours. I studied density altitude for an hour last night. I'm selling prized possessions preparing myself to go the distance financially to get my PPL.

Today we went up. I had my best take off and taxi ever. We were at 1500 AGL. My CFI(Who's very knowledgeable, calm, flies dual five days a week, owns the plane, very encouraging) said to me, "How're you doing? Feeling okay?" To which I replied, "I'm not feeling too well."

He was shocked and said, "You wanna go back?" At this point today we'd spent more time during taxi and pre-flight and I said, "Yes, let's go back." I was lying. I felt fine.

Each time we've flown, he's had the same comment, "You're doing great." To which I always respond, "I've gotta be honest, I'm a nervous wreck right now."

So today I checked myself out. I don't think I'll ever be comfortable enough in a plane to pilot one. Though I'd stayed up until 2:00 am telling myself. "You're gonna pitch the nose up, you'll see nothing but the sky for a few seconds, the stall horn will sound, the AOA will increase, the plane will stop flying, it will buffet, the nose will drop, it'll be worst than a roller coaster, you'll release the back pressure, control the ball with rudder, the AOA will decrease, the plane will start flying you'll pitch the nose back up, and you'll come back home having conquered stalls. I couldn't find the moxie to even get out of the pattern.

So if there's anything I can add to the thread it's that yes, perhaps a CFI might have to fire a student...but it may also be prudent to know that a student might have to fire himself and how to help a student render that decision.
 
Hey Brian...

I think you should know this just because...

As I was going through my PPL the thought of stalls was fairly intimidating I mean who wants to stall a plane, seems crazy and I don't want to die right! In any event... My fear if stalls was largely related to the following "experience" when I played flight simulator as a kid stalling meant crashing down to the ground...not that I had any clue what I was doing but somewhere in my 12 year old playing MS Flight Sim it was embedded stalls = death...

WHICH IS TOTALLY UNTRUE. Now stalls at 150 AGL = not good by 3000 ft AGL and you've got a lot of time A LOT of time and really it's Very easy. I say this because sometimes our 12 year old brain just thinks something untrue and that causes irrational fear, but if we know where this fear comes from, we can better overcome it...a Stall is NOT airplane drops like rock to ground.... A stall instead is you've turned the wing into log...you need to turn it back into a wing... That's all it is and the log produces Some lift (not much) and will work just fine once you turn it back into a wing...that's all it is. Doesn't take long at all. So I guess just don't worry about the procedure instead just focus on the truth of the physics...once you do that you can overcome the fear.

GOOD LUCK!
 
Not to necro a thread, but thought I'd respond to the recent post:

@Brianwrites:

It sounds like you're focusing on the wrong stuff. You're in it for the travel/mystery aspect, so focus on that. Instead of doing stalls or studying and psyching yourself up, I'd urge you to give it one last shot. Tell the instructor that you want 2-3 hours of his time, a hood, and lunch at an airport 30 or so miles away.

Have him/her run through the IFR departure sequence with you, take off, throw the hood on at 500ft, and watch the gauges and listen to the radio (which, according to your previous posts, is the interesting part). Then have a gentle approach down the ILS, land, stop, and enjoy lunch. Digest and repeat. Some people just don't like maneuvers.

FWIW- Richard Collins, one of the greybeards of aviation, was famous for enjoying IFR flying in the clouds more than VFR flying because of the nature of traveling on the magic of the airways and instruments.
 
i think my CFI is going to tell me to quit flying after today's event. I had 10 hours of flying in total, 4 hours away from doing #1 check ride and first solo, today I was totally off, can't trim the plane, dropped 400 feet for slow flight, power off stall was off a little, power on stall almost developed into a spin, had no idea what the hell emergency recover was. totally off headings wherever was instructed due to continuous trying to get that damn plane trimmed. and lastly I was flying towards the departure upwind area, thinking "flying towards the airport" attitude, that's simply being dumb and wtf moment for me. seems like it was my 2nd day of flying. CFI canceled my tomorrow's events and told me to regroup next week. I'm very frustrate right now, maybe I should get a different CFI before quitting? there're so many people out there wants to fly but don't get the money or time for it, I got the opportunity and time, but I just can't do it. I just don't see myself doing solo after 15 or 16 hours of flight time as required by my school. flying should be enjoyable, but the more I flying the more I feel horrible due to poor performance, I do chair flying everyday, but once up in the air I just can't synchronize everything.
 
10 hours is way to soon to determine you need to pull the plug unless you just don't want to do it anymore. I think all of us felt that way at some point during our training. It takes time and a lot of work and 10 hours just isn't enough time. I remember sitting in my car after a lesson hanging my head down and thinking I would never learn to land that plane. I think I had more than 10 hours at that point too.
 
Zombie thread, but...

There's always the possibility of a student/instructor incompatibility.

The best thing to do is to go up with another, impartial instructor.

I've gotten a handful of "problem" students from other instructors that I managed to get through their checkrides. I've probably had students get frustrated with me who moved on to other instructors to finish up.

Don't be too easily discouraged, is all.
 
I'm with Eddie, pretty much the same experiences. Only had one I suggested quit, and he was a hand off from another good CFI. Neither of us could get him to consistently flare for a landing, among other problems. He was actually an Iranian Air Force controller who we were also training out at the base, and the two of us were controllers there so we new the man pretty good. He wasn't happy about being told he should quit but did. Had another I was training who with two others owned a Cub together and all three were my students. He would do things behind my back like take a friend flying, dropping packages from the Cub etc. I finally had enough and refused to instruct him any longer, and also sent the FSDO a letter basically stating why I was no longer responsible for him as a student. He eventually found another CFI and got his PPC.
 
brianread87 said:
...had no idea what the hell emergency recover was...
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I got thousands of hours, been through more than a few rides, and I got no idea what a "emergency recover" is ether.

Is your CFI a younger low time guy?
 
brianread87 said:
i think my CFI is going to tell me to quit flying after today's event. I had 10 hours of flying in total, 4 hours away from doing #1 check ride and first solo, today I was totally off, can't trim the plane, dropped 400 feet for slow flight, power off stall was off a little, power on stall almost developed into a spin, had no idea what the hell emergency recover was. totally off headings wherever was instructed due to continuous trying to get that damn plane trimmed. and lastly I was flying towards the departure upwind area, thinking "flying towards the airport" attitude, that's simply being dumb and wtf moment for me. seems like it was my 2nd day of flying. CFI canceled my tomorrow's events and told me to regroup next week. I'm very frustrate right now, maybe I should get a different CFI before quitting? there're so many people out there wants to fly but don't get the money or time for it, I got the opportunity and time, but I just can't do it. I just don't see myself doing solo after 15 or 16 hours of flight time as required by my school. flying should be enjoyable, but the more I flying the more I feel horrible due to poor performance, I do chair flying everyday, but once up in the air I just can't synchronize everything.
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Sounds like a bad day, but I don't see why changing instructors or quitting is on the table.

It's very much worth analyzing why you were so far off your game. Maybe something physical? Lack of sleep? Fatigue? Illness? Heat exhaustion is a risk this time of year, and it can cause confusion and poor mental and physical performance much like described. There is a reason I never fly without water.
 
brian ditch the computer bs and go flying better yet sell all the computer sim stuff you have .you will be fine . i have been flying for 50 years and crash every time i PLAY on a computer. the only sim is a real one and costs 2x more than a real airplane .
 
brianread87 said:
...I just don't see myself doing solo after 15 or 16 hours of flight time as required by my school...
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I'm wondering what kind of school requires students to solo after 15 or 16 hours of flight time. People learn at different rates. I soloed at 31 hours, and it doesn't seem to have done me any harm, as I have flown for 25 years since then without an accident. (Knock on wood!)
 
Stingray Don said:
10 hours is way to soon to determine you need to pull the plug unless you just don't want to do it anymore. I think all of us felt that way at some point during our training. It takes time and a lot of work and 10 hours just isn't enough time. I remember sitting in my car after a lesson hanging my head down and thinking I would never learn to land that plane. I think I had more than 10 hours at that point too.

my first couple of flights were awesome, and I enjoyed it. later on it was not cool at all, I'm to a point just don't want to do it anymore, but as many people said 10 hours is too early to pull the plugs. I need to make some changes.
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Palmpilot said:
I'm wondering what kind of school requires students to solo after 15 or 16 hours of flight time. People learn at different rates. I soloed at 31 hours, and it doesn't seem to have done me any harm, as I have flown for 25 years since then without an accident. (Knock on wood!)
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it's a program for veteran students. we have to get our CFI in 21 month. PPL in 6 month, instrument in 6 and commercial for the rest. looks like the school is preparing us to get ppl for the minimum 40 hours, i maybe wrong, but I'm definitely the one need more than 70 hours for ppl or so. my CFI have five student. 3 of them are already soloed, and now i feel like im a dumbXXX. i need to make a change.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sounds like a bad day, but I don't see why changing instructors or quitting is on the table.

It's very much worth analyzing why you were so far off your game. Maybe something physical? Lack of sleep? Fatigue? Illness? Heat exhaustion is a risk this time of year, and it can cause confusion and poor mental and physical performance much like described. There is a reason I never fly without water.
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i had enough sleep, no fatigue, no illness, no heat exhaustion, it was 9 am in the morning. maybe i just need more flight hours to get everything remembered and can think a step ahead of time, seems like if I'm doing first maneuver wrong, I'd be off for the remaining ones. my CFI sounds like hes unwilling to training me, maybe because three of his other students already soloing, and i'm still having trouble with the basics. (this is how I feel)
 
hotprops said:
brian ditch the computer bs and go flying better yet sell all the computer sim stuff you have .you will be fine . i have been flying for 50 years and crash every time i PLAY on a computer. the only sim is a real one and costs 2x more than a real airplane .
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simulator is free for use at the school, it helps to organized steps or procedures for flying events, but It's so different in the planes, controller and motion feels are nowhere close to.
 
James331 said:
I got thousands of hours, been through more than a few rides, and I got no idea what a "emergency recover" is ether.

Is your CFI a younger low time guy?
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well, I don't blame my CFI. he's new with 300 hours or so. he basically told me "there's engine fire, what do you do?" during the flight, and I was like hmmmm. i have not been briefed or learned yet, telling him i'm gonna look for a safe landing area and going to land while making radio call for emergency landing in the area. and he's like "what to you do? we have fire", and I was like "****, let me see my check list, as I opened up my checklist, he then took over the control and descend and start calling out each steps. I was like " ok ", I'll take a note after we land.
 
brianread87 said:
well, I don't blame my CFI. he's new with 300 hours or so. he basically told me "there's engine fire, what do you do?" during the flight, and I was like hmmmm. i have not been briefed or learned yet, telling him i'm gonna look for a safe landing area and going to land while making radio call for emergency landing in the area. and he's like "what to you do? we have fire", and I was like "****, let me see my check list, as I opened up my checklist, he then took over the control and descend and start calling out each steps. I was like " ok ", I'll take a note after we land.
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sounds to me like he is riding you too hard for such a low time student. i'd look into a new school or instructor. If a low time student is getting frazzled already and behind the plane all lesson, why would you throw an engine fire at him. would seem more appropriate to help you get your bearing and simplify the lesson.
 
My advice would totally depend on whether you're doing this for recreation, or if you're trying to become an airline/professional pilot.

And yes, part 61 instruction is largely a mess of inconsistent quality. Pretty terrible actually, ime.
 
exncsurfer said:
sounds to me like he is riding you too hard for such a low time student. i'd look into a new school or instructor. If a low time student is getting frazzled already and behind the plane all lesson, why would you throw an engine fire at him. would seem more appropriate to help you get your bearing and simplify the lesson.
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That's how I feel, I'll find out what he's going to do with me next week, either give me to another CFI, or he'll continue teaching me. I can't look into a new school, this is the only school in san diego, california offering free ppl to veteran student.
 
hindsight2020 said:
My advice would totally depend on whether you're doing this for recreation, or if you're trying to become an airline/professional pilot.

And yes, part 61 instruction is largely a mess of inconsistent quality. Pretty terrible actually, ime.
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i was trying to become an atp pilot and ultimately goal is to fly international route from LA to China. my goal now is just to get PPL which looks quite challenging at the moment.
 
My CFI told me of one of the only students he has fired. They were out on a flight practicing landings (touch and gos) and the student landed the 172 left of center. He was headed even further left when eventually, my CFI had to grab the controls. As my CFI got it back into the air, the student yelled at him saying "hey, don't touch the controls... who do you think is flying the plane?!".

My CFI replied "I am" and they headed home, never to fly together again. A couple years later the student crashed his plane near San Francisco and fortunately everyone was ok and there was no sign-off in his logbook from my CFI.
 
DesertNomad said:
My CFI told me of one of the only students he has fired. They were out on a flight practicing landings (touch and gos) and the student landed the 172 left of center. He was headed even further left when eventually, my CFI had to grab the controls. As my CFI got it back into the air, the student yelled at him saying "hey, don't touch the controls... who do you think is flying the plane?!".

My CFI replied "I am" and they headed home, never to fly together again. A couple years later the student crashed his plane near San Francisco and fortunately everyone was ok and there was no sign-off in his logbook from my CFI.
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that's not nice, if I did something wrong, i took my hand off immediately as my CFI took over the control, and I just apologize for the wrong doing for being freeze or whatever the reason was. I can tell he was mad as hell though. like how I almost developed a spin from power on stall. it's my second time doing it as well, clearly i didn't learn from the first one, but that was my 3rd hour of flying time, now it's my 10th.
 
Brian. With ten hours it's no time to quit! Your just beginning to get the feel of landing and taking off. Eventually the light bulb will come on. Do not quit! You'll be fine. Find an instructor with high time. Important.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Brian. With ten hours it's no time to quit! Your just beginning to get the feel of landing and taking off. Eventually the light bulb will come on. Do not quit! You'll be fine. Find an instructor with high time. Important.
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thanks, i will do that.
 
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