CFIs, have you ever had to tell a student to quit flight training?

N918KT

N918KT

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Hello all. This question is for the CFIs and this question is just purely based on curiosity.

CFIs, have you ever had to tell a student to quit or give up on flight training just because he wasn't good at learning to fly? Like if there is a certain skill or skills he fails to master, did you ever have to tell him to consider giving up on flight training?

Is it even possible for a CFI to tell a student to give up on flight training just because he fails to master the skills required for a pilots license?
 
It's quite possible. I haven't done it yet, but I watched a senior CFI "fire" a student last year. He gently told the (middle-aged) guy that he felt the student wasn't making any progress in spite of working with several different instructors. He pointed out that the student seemed unable to pay the necessary attention to detail to detect problems early and then had inappropriate reactions (freezing up) when action was required. Because of this he said he didn't think the student would be a safe airman and did not want to waste any more of the students time and money. He also gave the student a letter saying essentially the same thing. The student agreed that it wasn't working and wasn't enjoyable.

On another occasion I heard of another CFI firing a younger man who just would NOT take the time to prepare for the lessons - didn't do the homework, showed up late, etc.

I'm sure others will chime in.
 
Not me. Given enough time and money everyone gets to be a pilot. Money is usually the limiting factor. Not a perfect situation, but it works pretty well.
 
I've told students I won't fly with them any more, and I've suggested that they consider terminating their training due to lack of aptitude. However, there is nothing to prevent a student from finding another instructor willing to continue training.
 
Captain said:
Not me. Given enough time and money everyone gets to be a pilot. Money is usually the limiting factor. Not a perfect situation, but it works pretty well.
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Everyone ????

I am betting there are a few who have continued on with a CFI who was in it just for the money and the "pilot" changed his/her name to (smoking hole)... soon after..:eek::yikes:
 
Yes. But the one in particular was a GI Bill student from WWII. I really liked this guy but his mind was on the way out.

I let the "chief" flight instructor give him the bad news after a check flight (or whatever those flights are called Part 141).
 
Ron Levy said:
I've told students I won't fly with them any more, and I've suggested that they consider terminating their training due to lack of aptitude. However, there is nothing to prevent a student from finding another instructor willing to continue training.
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My answer exactly.
 
Interesting responses so far guys. Now my next question is if you did tell (or suggest) to your student to quit flight training just because of failing to master certain piloting skills, what was their reaction?

Did they become upset? Or did they come to know their limitations and accept the fact that they may not be able to become a pilot. Were they okay with that?
 
I think they know but just haven't pulled the plug. I just ask "is this flight-training gig working out the way you envisioned?" The ensuing conversation usually gets us where we need to go.
 
N918KT said:
Interesting responses so far guys. Now my next question is if you did tell (or suggest) to your student to quit flight training just because of failing to master certain piloting skills, what was their reaction?

Did they become upset? Or did they come to know their limitations and accept the fact that they may not be able to become a pilot. Were they okay with that?
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I had one Latin American, with strong macho tendencies, go pretty nutso, accusing me of insulting his manhood, and wanting me to "step outside" so he could prove he was a man -- I declined his offer. And with that one, I didn't say he couldn't train, just that he couldn't solo any more until his English got better (had a problem working with the tower at our airport). Most said they sort of realized it already and thanked me for everything. One trainee broke down in tears. You do this long enough, you see it all.
 
Yes, interesting responses.

I'm wondering if the CFIs have someone they should have asked to quit?
 
I'd bet there is a difference between 141 and 61 in this regard. Might be part of the angst 61 backgrounds have against 141...

Just spitballin.
 
I have once. Something along the lines of "is this going like you'd hoped". We visited for 2.5 hrs after a flight and he was thankful that I brought it up and agreed with me about his situation. He seemed genuinely relieved that I "let him off the hook" that he had put himself on.

I thought long and hard about how to bring it up and what to say. But, putting the ball in his court with questions let him make his own decision.

I've only been a CFI for a little less than three years.
 
I've met a few people that I have had my severe doubts that they could ever manage to pass. We met a woman who twice got lost early on in her solo XC. I don't care HOW bad your instructor is, self preservation lends me to believe that before the second time (and hopefully before the third, she hadn't gotten that far) that I'd assure myself I knew what I was doing. And this was in central PA I believe, lots of NAVAIDS, lots of features for pilotage, hell, etc...

My instructor had a student that just would go into brain lock. You could grill him over and over and then go out an fly and he'd do something completely different in flight. After failing his stage V check over pattern procedures my instructor (who I now had as a roommage) asked if I could please try and work with the guy that maybe I could explain it better.

I spent an evening with a chart, a model airplane, and a picture of a runway. We went over the procedure from where to enter the pattern, to radio calls, to power settings. We flew scenario after scenario which he did perfectly at the end of the evening.

The next day on the retest he went out and flew a five mile straight-in (with radio calls) rather than entering a normal pattern. I just don't know how you teach someone like that.
 
Interesting thread, I've always wondered this.
 
Once had an 18 year old kid who was doing OK, could have soloed but, his anecdote of recent 80-90 mph interstate highway driving antics with 2 other friends in their cars left me pondering too much about his responsibility levels and suseptability to peer pressure.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Once had an 18 year old kid who was doing OK, could have soloed but, his anecdote of recent 80-90 mph interstate highway driving antics with 2 other friends in their cars left me pondering too much about his responsibility levels and suseptability to peer pressure.
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80-90 isn't even that dangerous on a lightly traveled relatively straight highway. It's just a good way to get a speeding ticket if you're approaching 90. I regularly broke 100 when I was his age, and I admit that was stupid. Now I rarely do more than 10 over because I don't like tickets.
 
MassPilot said:
80-90 isn't even that dangerous on a lightly traveled relatively straight highway. It's just a good way to get a speeding ticket if you're approaching 90. I regularly broke 100 when I was his age, and I admit that was stupid. Now I rarely do more than 10 over because I don't like tickets.
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You trust the suspension and tires on your vehicle a lot more than you should.

One rotted out bushing or worn balljoint can ruin your whole day.
 
MassPilot said:
80-90 isn't even that dangerous on a lightly traveled relatively straight highway. It's just a good way to get a speeding ticket if you're approaching 90. I regularly broke 100 when I was his age, and I admit that was stupid. Now I rarely do more than 10 over because I don't like tickets.
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Yeah, it wasn't the speed so much as their antics combined with it.
 
MassPilot said:
80-90 isn't even that dangerous on a lightly traveled relatively straight highway. It's just a good way to get a speeding ticket if you're approaching 90. I regularly broke 100 when I was his age, and I admit that was stupid.
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Then you understand why we CFI's don't like signing off on people who do stupid things.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Yeah, it wasn't the speed so much as their antics combined with it.
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I thought I was invincible when I was 18, and I definitely did some very stupid things in a car. I'm glad I didn't have access to a plane back then. Fortunately I grew up.
 
I have not fired any students. A couple withdrew on their own account.
 
MassPilot said:
Yes I do. I just don't think doing 80-90 is necessarily stupid on it's own. 100 probably is.
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Depends where you do it. Somewhere in the middle of Montana, I'd probably agree. Most anywhere else, I probably wouldn't. In the 30 mph zone in front of the high school, that's got "stupid" written all over it (and we yanked our son's license for six months on that even though he was only doing 65).
 
One student kept scheduling lessons then not showing up or calling for no reason. They gave him lots of chances. The owner of the flight school finally told him to go elsewhere.
 
So far patience has pulled through those I thought might never get it. I had one instrument student that knew the stuff but had trouble consistently putting it all together, but kept pushing to do his checkride. I finally threw up my hands and said, "Whatever....go for it." We did one more mock checkride and he did horrible, but I signed him off, willing to take the "fail" so he could see he wasn't ready. I called the examiner, who I'd used regularly, right after the ride to find out how he did (or learn how many areas he failed!) His was response was, "He did great, like all your students." Huh? Seriously??! I then told him about our flight the night before. The examiner reasoned that my student had gotten all his mistakes out of his system the night before. That student has been flying IFR all over the country for six or seven years in all kinds of weather and is doing just fine.
 
Why would you fire a student? Tell him "Look, you're not progressing as quickly as you should be. There's a chance, at this rate, that you are wasting money, if your ultimate goal is to get a certificate. That said - I would love to continue flying with you, and you may eventually get there. But realistically, this is going to cost you a lot more money before we get there."

Then they choose. AND - by firing them, you've culled out those that would continue to pay a CFI just to go out and have fun and learn, vs. always trying for the certificate. That might actually solve some of their problems by removing the anxiety. Either way, you are providing the service they're paying for.
 
SkyHog said:
Why would you fire a student?
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Because s/he's more trouble than s/he's worth. That could include no-showers, Mr. Macho (above), or those who refuse to play be the rules (Student Pilot who taxied across the field to pick up a buddy).
 
I recently offloaded a student who either complained that I didn't ever let him make mistakes or that I allowed him to put himself into dangerous situations "that could get him killed."

He refused to solo for about five hours after me, another CFI and one of the very experienced locals told him he was good to go. I finally got him to solo and After enough xc training (which he did just fine on) he refused to solo xc because I wouldn't show him the more advanced features of the 430 (flight plans, approaches) THEN, he even refused to do solo maneuvers because he thought he was unsafe and that I was just trying to get him checked off to work with another student.

I asked if he had scared himself and was having second thoughts and he said no. So after telling him I would take him up and demonstrate the maneuvers again to knock the rust off but that solo time was his chance to train himself, he got belligerent, told me he was the boss and that he paid my bills (I CFI on the side). In a very confrontational manner told me that if I didn't want his money, just let him know.

Three days later he bought a Mooney M20 and has a new instructor. The sad part is that after soloing, he was the best student pilot I have seen in flying and knowledge.
 
I'm not a CFI, but I was a student pilot and had an instructor who became more and more unavailable for scheduling. Eventually, I just could not get on his calendar even though he had other students who were flying regularly. It would have been far better if he had just "fired" me. I had a couple of other CFIs that I had to "fire". But, it is not right to tell a student to quit flight training. They may eventually find that instructor who figures out how to reach them. I did.

Now, I tell prospective CFIs how to deal with me and it works out pretty well.
 
I had one student I got that already had 90 hours, he still could not talk in the radio, he couldn't do stalls, but he wanted to do touch and gos. I would tell him, get me to the practice area at 2500 ft. Take off start leveling off at 500 feet. I pushed him on to another instructor that didn't mind sitting there taking the money.
 
One of my instructors says that he has told a student that the student should get another instructor. Progress was not being made under my instructor and he was no longer willing to work with that particular student.

And in this world of ours there surely are some situations where one instructor might connect with someone where another had failure.
 
I was recently at an airport within the past month. I was standing inside of a flight school. I overheard one employee say to another that a certain pilot was now flying with (insert name of other flight school here). I asked and they said this pilot had been flying with 4 or more instructors, for over 200 hours, and just didn't "get" it. The pilot had solo'd but no checkride. They said this pilot was smart, had a very challenging job, and spoke many languages, but for some reason flying wasn't working out. They had to let the pilot go.
 
LDJones said:
So far patience has pulled through those I thought might never get it. I had one instrument student that knew the stuff but had trouble consistently putting it all together, but kept pushing to do his checkride. I finally threw up my hands and said, "Whatever....go for it." We did one more mock checkride and he did horrible, but I signed him off, willing to take the "fail" so he could see he wasn't ready. I called the examiner, who I'd used regularly, right after the ride to find out how he did (or learn how many areas he failed!) His was response was, "He did great, like all your students." Huh? Seriously??! I then told him about our flight the night before. The examiner reasoned that my student had gotten all his mistakes out of his system the night before. That student has been flying IFR all over the country for six or seven years in all kinds of weather and is doing just fine.
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Apparently you're more intimidating than the DE, at least for that student.:D
 
Anyone ever encountered a student who apparently wasn't really interested in obtaining a pilot's certificate but enjoyed flying with a CFI (permanent student)? If so do you think a serious lack of confidence or some kind of fear was the root cause?
 
We had a co-owner in a 172 with those issues, and nobody every knew exactly what caused his problem. He was gung-ho at first, talked endlessly about all of his family in SW Missouri that he could visit with the plane as well as business trips that would be perfectly suited.

Then he became more and more tentative, although his abilities would have placed him in the top half of the class. He started flying with another top-notch instructor in our ownership group who was also his friend prior to buying the plane. After many months of no results the other CFI passed the guy to me. We reviewed everything he had done and did most of it again as a confidence booster, but he hit the same wall and couldn't bring himself to do it alone.

I finally forced the issue by telling him "we're going to have to stop meeting like this" to the point that he did the flew the solos and checkride, (and all quite well as best we could tell) but I don't think he ever flew again without another pilot in the plane. He was clearly terrified of stalls and finally overcame it sufficiently, but I think he just forced himself to do it so he could finish the license and then revert to a well-trained passenger.

gismo said:
Anyone ever encountered a student who apparently wasn't really interested in obtaining a pilot's certificate but enjoyed flying with a CFI (permanent student)? If so do you think a serious lack of confidence or some kind of fear was the root cause?
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I know do an older gentleman who has a pp from long ago but now only flies with a CFI for safety. Sweet old guy.
 
Not a CFI but I have had to tell a couple of my skydiving students to take up bowling instead. Everybody is good at something but not everybody can skydive, or fly, although >99% can. 100% knew it wasn't working and seemed relieved to move on. If they can do it, I certainly want to help. I always offered to keep working with them if they wanted to but in my judjement something else would be better.

More frequently I've had students get a "mental block" somewhere in the process. These students I've referred to other instructors to approach it from a different angle. I've also accepted students from other instructors with similar students. This very often works.

And I have "fired" students, though mostly for missing or not being prepared for a lesson. The instructor/student relationship has to work both ways.
 
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