CFIs, have you ever had to tell a student to quit flight training?
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jonnyjetprop
Cleared for Takeoff
I had a couple too. Lets face it, not everyone can become a pilot.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
I haven't yet. Though there was one guy who kinda washed out on his own, but if he hadn't, a talk was probably going to be had...It wasn't his flying, it was the fact that I didn't trust his judgement due to numerous "infractions" on his part.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Sure they can-look at some of the idiots out there with pilot certificates. The question is whether everyone has what it takes to become a safe member of the aviation community, which is the biggest thing I look for in anybody looking for my sign off.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I kind of did. He was nearly 80 years old and his wife was in very poor health. Getting out of the house to fly was really the only break he got from taking care of her. I considered it extremely unlikely he'd finish his training as he was extremely inconsistent with scheduling (because of the situation with his wife).
None-the-less I flew with him whenever he wanted and taught him like I would anyone else. He finally stopped when it got to the point that leaving his wife for a hour and a half was no longer an option and he doesn't want anyone else to care for her.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
I fly with a guy just like that from time to time. His argument is that he doesn't have the time to stay proficient enough for solo flight/passenger carrying, but he still likes to go up and flight-see once per month or so. Personally, I enjoy flying with him-it's a good break from the primary instructing I usually do.
sdflyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
All the time?
About everything?
I'd debate you on that.
Yes including flight training. He knew exactly what he needed
Apparently you're more intimidating than the DE, at least for that student.
Hmmm....maybe....but I'm pretty laid back!! But that examiner was, too. He's since retired and we miss him. Remember Anders?
My very first student was a late-60-something accountant who strolled in one day asking if I could teach an old dog new tricks. He cranked right through his private pilot training, but said right up front he may never use it on his own. For the next two years after getting his ticket he'd call me to ride along to business meetings around the state. We got along great and he like the security of having me along.
seattlepilot
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Yes. I flew with a couple like that. One was an old timer who just wanted to get up in the air from time to time and the other was a younger guy who did a lot of travelling and couldn't commit the time to finish. He just liked to putt around the area for an hour when he was in town.
Honestly if that is all a guy/gal wanted to do then who am I to play armchair psychologist and figure out their problem. Some people just want to get up in the air from time to time and that's about the size of it. I'll admit it's weird, but it takes different strokes to move the world.
Also yes, for the OP, I've had to let students go, because they were regularly not doing the bookwork they were assigned and it became frustrating cramming all the ground in during the .5 I had alotted before the flight. Don't want to do what I ask? Fine. Do it with someone else.
There have also been a lot of students I wish I could have let go at a 141 school I worked at. Unfortunately, being that the owner loved money, it was difficult at best to do so. Some of those poor students flew until their money ran out never getting their PPL. It was one of the worst working experiences I've been in but a real eye opener for sure.
Yes, plus some good meals...which was great for a poor college kid instructing on the side!
comanchepilot
En-Route
I think are still some Saudi students in the USAF partner pilot program . . . from the 1980's.
Tristar
Pattern Altitude
I've had a couple trouble students both with good endings and not so good.
My very first student was one of the nicest guys I've met. He looked very scruffy but he never got upset about anything and understood that he had a very hard time learning and had all his life but this was on his bucket list. Both of us had times when we were doubting he'd finish but he'd always show up for that next lesson and even paid in cash! It took him about 3-4 pages of landings to figure it out and 4 chances at his checkride but persistence paid off.
The worst student I had lasted about 5 lessons. This guy was working towards his sport. The first bad vibe I got was not telling the truth about doing homework. I'd ask him if he did his homework on stalls and he'd say yes but then he couldn't explain to me the definition of a stall or any steps to do one. Next was when I told him that we were going to work on talking to the controllers and his response was, "I'm learning sport, I dont have to talk on the radios, that's your job." Not kidding, he told me it was my job! Not to get any feathers ruffled, I gave him a print out in order to encourage the radio and we were at a towered airport. What finally broke the camels back was during a preflight. I stood back and let him have some space to see if he could figure it out this time. I asked him how much oil we had and what the minimum was (it's on the checklist). He just said "enough." I was already getting edgy so I asked him if he thought it would be a good idea to know that. We looked at the oil together. Next I asked how much fuel do we have (it's clearly marked inside the plane using a floating ball in a tube). Same response, "we have enough." Okay but how much do we have and do you know how much we should use an hour?" A simple, "I can't remember or could you help me would have been fine. Instead he throws his checklist down on the chair and tells me I'm constantly telling him what to do and he can't take it anymore. He told me he's never going to read the book and remember all these stupid numbers and said I quit!! I tried to calm him down and explain why these things are important. We stopped the flight and he left. A few days later my boss called him, he told him the same thing that it was my job to talk on the radios and that he's never going to understand or read anything I tell him to. My boss was a little shocked but pretty much said, "okay, have a good day!" It's awesome when bosses back you up.
My very first student was one of the nicest guys I've met. He looked very scruffy but he never got upset about anything and understood that he had a very hard time learning and had all his life but this was on his bucket list. Both of us had times when we were doubting he'd finish but he'd always show up for that next lesson and even paid in cash! It took him about 3-4 pages of landings to figure it out and 4 chances at his checkride but persistence paid off.
The worst student I had lasted about 5 lessons. This guy was working towards his sport. The first bad vibe I got was not telling the truth about doing homework. I'd ask him if he did his homework on stalls and he'd say yes but then he couldn't explain to me the definition of a stall or any steps to do one. Next was when I told him that we were going to work on talking to the controllers and his response was, "I'm learning sport, I dont have to talk on the radios, that's your job." Not kidding, he told me it was my job! Not to get any feathers ruffled, I gave him a print out in order to encourage the radio and we were at a towered airport. What finally broke the camels back was during a preflight. I stood back and let him have some space to see if he could figure it out this time. I asked him how much oil we had and what the minimum was (it's on the checklist). He just said "enough." I was already getting edgy so I asked him if he thought it would be a good idea to know that. We looked at the oil together. Next I asked how much fuel do we have (it's clearly marked inside the plane using a floating ball in a tube). Same response, "we have enough." Okay but how much do we have and do you know how much we should use an hour?" A simple, "I can't remember or could you help me would have been fine. Instead he throws his checklist down on the chair and tells me I'm constantly telling him what to do and he can't take it anymore. He told me he's never going to read the book and remember all these stupid numbers and said I quit!! I tried to calm him down and explain why these things are important. We stopped the flight and he left. A few days later my boss called him, he told him the same thing that it was my job to talk on the radios and that he's never going to understand or read anything I tell him to. My boss was a little shocked but pretty much said, "okay, have a good day!" It's awesome when bosses back you up.
.....My boss was a little shocked but pretty much said, "okay, have a good day!" It's awesome when bosses back you up.
When the boss doesn't back you up................. It's time to find a NEW boss...
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I have had one student (make that two) that have literally cost me more than they have been worth. That's not fun.
Ryan
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I had one that professed interest in learning to fly, but was actually literally scared to the point of shaking to actually control the aircraft himself. He was fine as long as I had a hand on the controls, but when I would take them off... it was amazing. Very nice guy, loved airplanes, said he felt very safe when I was flying, but didn't trust himself.
Ryan
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I have had that happen as well. Very fun older fellow, can still land an airplane but no longer holding a cert. Former WWII P-51 pilot with stories such as shooting down a German Me-262 (and he's the real deal). Just every so often feels the urge to get back up in the air!
Ryan
wabower
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Wayne
I've had a couple trouble students both with good endings and not so good.
When you originally wrote about those two guys I thought maybe the school was saving them for a new CFI just to see how you would handle them.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
I had a student (glider add-on) that tried to schedule his own check ride with the DPE. DPE calls me and asks "what's up?", we normally let the DPE know ahead of time to learn his schedule. He is an airline pilot and gone for 2 weeks at a time. I told the DPE I would check, but I had not approved the student for the check ride.
I worked with the student and attempted to get him ready, but every check ride prep flight, a different maneuver would not pass PTS standards, a maneuver that was good the week before. The student called the DPE again. I said, he is not consistent enough. We agreed to proceed.
The student barely made it through the oral portion. He had two marginal maneuvers, but then failed the no spoiler approach and the DPE called the failure.
The student left the aircraft, stormed off, leaving the glider near the runway and the DPE and I speechless. He did not wait for the paperwork. The DPE and I put the glider away and completed the paperwork.
Almost 50 patterns later, with 3 different instructors, the student could not complete the no spoiler approach, 2 patterns in a row. He had an excuse on every approach that went bad. He deemed us incompetent instructors, and left.
2 months later he called and asked me to mail him his pink slip. No idea if he ever completed the rating or not. I suppose I could check the online FAA pilot data.
I worked with the student and attempted to get him ready, but every check ride prep flight, a different maneuver would not pass PTS standards, a maneuver that was good the week before. The student called the DPE again. I said, he is not consistent enough. We agreed to proceed.
The student barely made it through the oral portion. He had two marginal maneuvers, but then failed the no spoiler approach and the DPE called the failure.
The student left the aircraft, stormed off, leaving the glider near the runway and the DPE and I speechless. He did not wait for the paperwork. The DPE and I put the glider away and completed the paperwork.
Almost 50 patterns later, with 3 different instructors, the student could not complete the no spoiler approach, 2 patterns in a row. He had an excuse on every approach that went bad. He deemed us incompetent instructors, and left.
2 months later he called and asked me to mail him his pink slip. No idea if he ever completed the rating or not. I suppose I could check the online FAA pilot data.
Clark1961
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Might have more to do with living here than flying skills...
MultiMediaWill
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Will
How did he complete his solo requirement if he never flew alone?
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Yikes..sounds to me like he doesn't have the temperament to be flying at all.
NineThreeKilo
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NineThreeKilo
I've trained a bunch of folks, most career guys going into AG flying.
Told two it wasn't for them
One was a friend of mine, who came over from India, this was before I was even a CFI, he had close to 100hrs and had not soloed, been through a few schools and instructors (one a known good place I used). I told him not everyone should be a pilot, I told him Im sure given enough money and time he could be "pushed" through, but would never be a very good pilot (no feel for the aircraft) AND just because you could doesnt mean you should!
Second guy was from South America (very south), same type of deal, but I was his CFI, I told him about what I told my friend years ago, I recommend he fly with another CFI that I could be wrong and it may just be my teaching style.
He went on to another CFI at the same school, stopped at his PPL, which, rumor has it, the DPE gave him due to knowing he won't ever be flying in the US.
I know we live in a culture that falsely tells people they can be anything they set their mind to, unfourtantly that just ain't the case.
Told two it wasn't for them
One was a friend of mine, who came over from India, this was before I was even a CFI, he had close to 100hrs and had not soloed, been through a few schools and instructors (one a known good place I used). I told him not everyone should be a pilot, I told him Im sure given enough money and time he could be "pushed" through, but would never be a very good pilot (no feel for the aircraft) AND just because you could doesnt mean you should!
Second guy was from South America (very south), same type of deal, but I was his CFI, I told him about what I told my friend years ago, I recommend he fly with another CFI that I could be wrong and it may just be my teaching style.
He went on to another CFI at the same school, stopped at his PPL, which, rumor has it, the DPE gave him due to knowing he won't ever be flying in the US.
I know we live in a culture that falsely tells people they can be anything they set their mind to, unfourtantly that just ain't the case.
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There was one student at the place I got my PP, who should not have been flying. By the time I left there, this person had at least 50 hours and did not solo. Apparently this person just didn't get it, and the cfi just kept taking money and doing the same thing over and over. I lost respect for that instructor. I would be completely shocked if this person ever passed a checkride.
e.pie
Pre-takeoff checklist
Maybe they talked about it and the student wanted to keep trying?
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I had a guy like that. His parents wanted him to keep trying.
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German guy
Cleared for Takeoff
I was probably lucky, that my FI didn't ask me for my driving habits. Here in Germany, 81 mph is the recommended speed limit for the Autobahn. Fortunatly it's only a recommendation...
BenZwebner
Pre-takeoff checklist
I had to do that only once. The student was terrified of any bank angle over 5 degrees. Literally freaked out terrified. I worked with her as much as I could. I got her in the pattern and she started working on landings but she would never bank enough to keep the turns in the pattern square. I then sat her down and told her that personally, I want her to succeed but that it would be in her best interest to stop until she could get over her fear of "steep turns" (relatively steep!).
She stopped training but she still enjoys flying, I know this because I married her! (true story!)
Dave Krall CFII
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Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
I was probably lucky, that my FI didn't ask me for my driving habits. Here in Germany, 81 mph is the recommended speed limit for the Autobahn. Fortunatly it's only a recommendation...
81 mph recommended and 60 mph mandated limit are two different things....
I do wish we had your type of Autobahn here in places, we certainly have some mountain pass roads that would qualify.
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
I'm surprised my instructor didn't fire me.
Aviator1945
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I had interesting episode recently(yesterday) a friend who is recently minted CFI has abt 400 hours & about 55 hours worth as a instructor same amount hours I have as flying (55 hours) I have some issues in landing & flare while training on a simulated slow flight at 75 knots at 4000 feet ( yesterday) full flap configurations he asked to bank and turn I kept my turns at about 10 degrees or less he asked me why am I not banking at the standard rate turn I told him I had read somewhere that in a slow flight configuration one can stall at any speed and any altitude and asked Him "Are You sure" he seemed to get upset ! after we landed he sent me a txt msg saying "based on my questioning the CFI 's instruction" he would like to keep me as a friend and not have an instructor/ Student relationship I don't think I did anything wrong So I have been fired by my new Instructor ( have about 5 hours with him) Well ! what do the people on this forum think ?
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Yeah, that douchebag tried to talk me out of it and said I'd never become a pilot, but I showed him!
Warrior
Line Up and Wait
I agree with your instructor about the standard rate of turns. If you like the instructor you might research that turn thing you "read somewhere" and apologize and agree to try to work with him.
I try to go with the flow when I have an instructor. I have 600 or so hours of flying and have flown with a number of different instructors. I can't blame them for wanting to instruct you their way. All instructors do have some differences and I try to remember what my instructor wants and do it.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think both of you could use some help on this one
75 knots is nowhere near slow flight in most trainers and in unaccelerated flight you're nowhere near stalling at a standard rate turn.
FWIW, a standard rate turn, at 75 knots, is about a 11 degree bank.
What I do know is that if an instructor is unprofessional enough to "fire" you via text message based on one small incident then you don't want them to be your instructor anyhow.
Dave Krall CFII
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Dave Krall CFII SEL SES, Cmcl HELI
CFIs are there TO BE QUESTIONED, for the flight student's benefit.
He's probably already well entrenched in his special version of cockpit despotism and unless you have the time, will, and you're tactful in handling his delicate ego, you're better off with someone else, unless you get another CFI like him, which are all too common unfortunately.
He's probably already well entrenched in his special version of cockpit despotism and unless you have the time, will, and you're tactful in handling his delicate ego, you're better off with someone else, unless you get another CFI like him, which are all too common unfortunately.
Warrior
Line Up and Wait
In my corner of the world CFIs who are willing to help at a moderate fee are not very common. So if you can find a CFI who works out better, more power to you. If you can't then I think that perhaps the delicate ego can be worked with.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I think both of you could use some help on this one
75 knots is nowhere near slow flight in most trainers and in unaccelerated flight you're nowhere near stalling at a standard rate turn.
FWIW, a standard rate turn, at 75 knots, is about a 11 degree bank.
What I do know is that if an instructor is unprofessional enough to "fire" you via text message based on one small incident then you don't want them to be your instructor anyhow.
Is there a formula for calculating this? Or is it just experience knowing what bank angle will produce a standard rate?
When asked to do slow flight turns, I only banked enough to get the plane to turn and no more. As I was getting ready for my checkride, my CFI had me practice turning stalls and recoveries (near Va, IIRC).
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
The simple answer would be to take the airspeed, divide it by 10, then add half of that result.
75 knots / 10 = 7.5
7.5 / 2 = 3.75
3.75 + 7.5 = 11.25 degrees
That is just approximate though. The real formula is a lot more work. All the info you'll want about it here:
http://www.luizmonteiro.com/Article_Bank_Angle_for_Std_Rate_01.aspx