CFI’s and Spins

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by luvflyin, Jun 25, 2020.

  1. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    You ain’t teaching them anymore, except to CFI applicants. So, how often do you practice a spin recovery?
     
  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The flight school here that I used still requires spin and upset training for private pilots. It’s still being taught.
     
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  3. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep. There are a good number of CFIs who teach them to those who want (or are forced) to learn them.
     
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  4. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    Just curious, have any data showing percentage of recent private applicants with basic spin training or schools that have it as part of the required curriculum? I’ve worked with students from all over the US and I have found that very few have ever experienced a spin before providing spin training to get the endorsement required for a flight instructor certificate.

    As far as the OP’s question goes, I do them frequently as implied above. Even if I hadn’t done one for a while I wouldn’t be scared of it. I think this is more the product of being a proficient instructor and pilot rather than specifically going out and practicing spins and recoveries.
     
  5. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I agree it's probably few. Many modern aircraft are not certified for spins, and when they are, flight schools are reticent on taking a modern airplane with advanced avionics and tumbling them. Other schools are concerned with the opposite - older aircraft and concerns about structural integrity for the recovery. Then there are the instructors themselves. While all are spin-certified, not all are spin-competent and others simply don't like them and don't see the value.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
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  6. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Every single time I get into one. So far, at least... ;)
     
  7. Geosync

    Geosync Pre-takeoff checklist

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    i remember my CFI trying to get the 172 to spin, which it doesn't really do well. After that i went through aerobatics training in a decathlon and citbaria. But since then, no spins at all(no time at the moment to fly a Decathlon). I'm afraid for most pilot coming up now, spins will not be experienced unless seeking a CFI.
     
  8. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I did one just last night, in a 172.

    Last summer I took a two-day class at CP Aviation in Santa Paula, with four flights (Citabria and Decathlon) to learn more about spins and spin recovery. It was a fun and rewarding weekend, and my understanding of spins was greatly improved as a result. Highly recommended!

    - Martin
     
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  9. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Hopefully for your passengers that’s spin avoidance not recovery.
     
  10. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Glad I never trained with you guys.
     
  11. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I had a rather bizarre primary instructor and we did spins on the second lesson in the 152. The 172 on the other hand is really hard to spin. It devolves into a steep spiral even if you do get it to start.
     
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  12. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yes I’m glad you didn’t either! It would really suck to have to learn advanced skills that may save your bacon one day.
     
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  13. SkyChaser

    SkyChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I got close to spinning the Skyhawk when I was doing a poorly-executed power on stall my second lesson. We talked about that. LOL

    After I get my cert, I am going to get in a plane okayed for spins with a CFI and see what actually happens. I know the how's of recovering from a spin, but I'd like to physically do it before trying to deal with all the stress of accidentally spinning a plane!
     
  14. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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  15. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I did some spin training in a Citabria after my private, but I did not do spins during private training. I thought they were fun, as I did the rest of the intro to aerobatics stuff.
     
  16. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's probably what your instructor wants you to believe, but a wing dropping in a stall is not a spin (or even close to one).
     
  17. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    When everyone was teaching spins a number of folks crashed and died, far far more than crashed and died from actual spins. Usually if you get into a spin it's because you're low and slow either landing or taking off. Should you get into a spin in those situations all the skills in the world won't save your bacon, they're usually unrecoverable. But folks like you don't care, all you really care about are your own opinions. So I will stay well away from arrogant guys like you.
     
  18. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    What I guess you're willfully ignoring is that those with high spin proficiency and skill are not generally the ones accidentally stall/spinning their airplanes from pattern altitudes and below. You're making a straw man argument, though I've known some instructors with high spin skill who have had to recover an incipient spin condition in the pattern due to supremely clumsy inputs from their student. Good thing they did spins all the time. You are in control of your own skill level of course, and luckily none of us have to fly with you.
     
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  19. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    how many recovered because they were trained?
    Applying prompt recovery procedures allows some of us to be alive to disagree with you.
     
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  20. SkyChaser

    SkyChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Oh, I know the wing dropping wasn't a spin, or even super close to it. It was the fact that he made me recover it, and I didn't respond that fast. LOL It obviously wasn't as close as it felt, or he would have recovered it, but as a student with maybe 3 hours, it felt close!
     
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  21. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I won't argue with that. One of the ways my aero CFI had me enter a spin was to do a slow simulated skidded turn to final, but at altitude. Once you do one of those, you know you'll never be able to recover from a real base to final spin.

    Arrogance had nothing to do with learning spins, it was part of the intro to aerobatics course. Want to do loops and rolls and such? Gotta master stalls, leaf stalls, and spins before he lets you move on to the fun stuff.
     
  22. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Depends on the airplane. This type of spin entry snaps over pretty quickly and if you actually allow it to come around to one full turn, your exit attitude will be much more shallow than if you recover at a half turn or so, which will actually leave you in a somewhat inverted attitude. If you were in a J-3 Cub and let it come around and recovered on one full turn, you could recover before hitting the ground, assuming the runway isn't lined with tall trees. Of course, if you had the skill and awareness to do this, you would not have stalled/spun the thing at low alt in the first place.
     
  23. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    Not the intended target, but seeing or doing a few spins so as not to "lock up" at the incipient early stage of one or over a minor wing drop would be a good thing.
     
  24. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I can see someone skilled being able to pull this off, but I'm not one of those people. My main takeaway was "Do this on final, and you die".
     
  25. Challenged

    Challenged Pattern Altitude

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    I utilize the PARE method when I find myself in a spin:
    • Piss my pants
    • Accept my fate
    • Rely on prayer
    • Eat granola bar
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  26. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe. Maybe not. I had that happen with a student in a Skyhawk. It was definitely an incipient spin. I even saw in coming in advance.
     
  27. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The arrogance is on both sides. A bit of unjustified, "I'm better than you and you are not a real pilot" because...

    FWIW, this is from the the 1991 FAR revision that added some of the ground training emphasis and the requirement for spin training for CFIs. 56 FR 11308 (3/15/1991)

    NPRM No. 89-14 included three proposals regarding stall/spin training for pilots and stall/spin training and testing for flight instructors of airplanes and gliders. The spin, a controlled or uncontrolled maneuver or performance in which the glider or airplane descends in a helical path while flying at an angle of attack greater than the angle of maximum lift, was a required training maneuver for pilot certification until 1949. It was deleted from the pilot certification requirements based on the high number of fatal stall and spin accidents, most of which occurred during training. The FAA has since placed greater emphasis on spin avoidance, particularly on training in the avoidance of unintentional stalls or unwanted unusual attitudes. This shift in training requirements resulted in a significant decrease in the number of stall/spin accidents since 1949. NTSB statistics indicate that stall/spin accidents fell from 48 percent of fatal general aviation accidents during the period 1945-48, to 22 percent during 1967-69, and to 12 or 13 percent in the 1970's. The stall/spin proposals in NPRM No. 89-14 constitute an effort to further reduce the already declining incidence of spin-related accidents in general aviation. The amendments contained in this rule will broaden stall and spin awareness training by emphasizing avoidance of unintentional stalls in addition to what is currently the more common procedure of practicing recovery from intentional stalls.​

    ****​

    Stall awareness training is effective. After the United States dropped the spin training requirement in June 1949 in favor of increased stall training, stall/spin accidents dropped dramatically. Although other factors such as improved stall warning devices undoubtedly contributed to this decrease, several studies indicate that the revised training approach was a main factor in reducing stall/spin accidents. In the 4 year period from 1945 to 1948, stall/spin accidents accounted for 48 percent of all fatal accidents. This proportion dropped to 27 percent from 1965 to 1968. The NTSB conducted a study of the period from 1967 to 1969, and found that stall/spin accidents caused 22 percent of all "fatal occurrences." That study, the Special Study General Aviation Stall/Spin Accidents, 1967 - 1969 (National Transportation Safety Board AAS-72-8, September 13, 1972), examined the 1,261 stall/spin accidents recorded for the period and noted that, while they accounted for only 8 percent of the total number of accidents, they caused 23 percent of the fatalities or serious injuries.​
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
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  28. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I didn’t say anything like that, so I’m not sure how my comments have been construed to come off as being arrogant, because that I am not.

    My opinion on the matter is that spin and unusual attitude training is highly beneficial and every pilot needs to be exposed to it. The training is not necessarily about teaching a pilot to escape a low altitude spin, but enhances your skills with controlling the airplane and encourages better airmanship.

    Michael is excellent at dishing out opinions, but he can’t take those that he doesn’t agree with without slinging out some kind of condescending statement along with it.
     
  29. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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    So why would any competent instructor allow such a condition to even happen?
     
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  30. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    I guess you've never done a spin before.
     
  31. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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    Lots of them. But you’re deflecting my question.

    Are you even a CFI?
     
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  32. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Nope but I could fly with you and show you how it could happen to clearly even a hero CFI such as yourself LOL
     
  33. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Me: You’re high...how about a slip?

    Students (had it happen twice...both instrument students): full left rudder, opposite aileron, pull back.

    feel free to argue my competency.
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sometimes a CFI can tell what is going to happen. Sometimes not. I've had two trainees let the airplane go into an incipient spin, both at altitude. In one I saw it developing well in advance (and let it). In the other I didn't.
     
  35. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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    I figured you weren’t just by the way you answer questions here.

    I never claimed “hero” status as a CFI, but I am competent enough to realize just how far to let a student take something before it gets out of hand.

    And I’ve taught spins as it was a prerequisite to the CFI, as well as teaching them in a variety of different aircraft such as cubs, champs, citabria/decathlon, etc.
     
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  36. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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    Sorry, while I was teaching I kept a SA going constantly as not to let a situation develop outside my control.

    Again, effective teaching is knowing just how far to let the student go in any situation.
     
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  37. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    If you don't think it can happen to a competent CFI, you're short on experience.
     
  38. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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    No controls on your side? o_O
     
  39. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Isn’t it funny when someone disagrees or fails to have the experience to back up their statements how they start throwing around adjectives about you?
     
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  40. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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    LOL.

    Wanna talk experience Skippy?
     
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