Cessna 172 engine out while on the ground.

Heresy pitch here, in good nature -
1. After a certain point, recent experience is better than total experince. A 500 hour PPL SEL, with 60 hours in the last six weeks is sharper than a 2,000 hour guy who is just minimally current. A generalization, but accurate more often than not, I think.

2. Checklists - good for students, not really necessary to have in hand for, say, a 172 you fly regularly. While I do have one in hand for starting engine and run-up, the rest, including bold face, is in my head.
 
MAKG1 said:
And there are ways to kill people with flaps in a 172 as well. Just not as many (usually).

Checklists matter. A professional who doesn't use them is an amateur with an extra certification he's not qualified for. Literally -- read the CSEL PTS.
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Cooter143 said:
That's a pretty big statement you've made and a pretty broad brush your painting with. What is your experience as a professional pilot?
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DavidWhite said:
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I guess we're still waiting for you to read the PTS as well. Checklists are a special emphasis area, and lack of use is disqualifying as such.

Might also want to read up on "hazardous attitudes," especially "invulnerability." A 172 is quite capable of killing a complacent operator.
 
MAKG1 said:
A 172 is quite capable of killing a complacent operator.
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Just because someone doesn't use a checklist on every aspect of every flight does NOT mean they are complacent - but if you'd ever flown for a living you would know that. Flows (IMO) Are better than checklists, as sometimes checklists skip things the aircraft manufacturer/company/FAA may not deem important but operationally they are a big deal.

As for the hazardous attitudes comment, that barely even warrants a reply. You don't know me, nor do you know of my flying ability or routines.
 
Speaking of the PTS and check rides, I used a checklist for startup and run up on my PPL check ride, but I didn't pull out a paper checklist for the landing checks. The DPE even got on to me for not prioritizing a flow vs. reading the checklist line by line on the run up. He was old school though. Like 80 years old, ex-airline pilot.

I also didn't use one on my IFR ride past startup/run up if my memory serves me right.

Now that I think about it, I've never had a CFI or another pilot that I'm riding with pull out a paper checklist for climb or landing checks in a non-complex single. So if it's "disqualifying" I guess I'm just lucky.

I'm not saying it's right, that the PTS doesn't demand it, or whatever. But that's my experience.

A poll on this topic would be interesting to see what people are actually doing.
 
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I don't quite get the mentality that demands every Cessna or Piper pilot fly as if they were training for a 747 type rating. I am fine with establishing standards for students, which is not the same thing.
 
I train my students to use checklists for every phase of flight. I make sure they see me do a checklist because I want them to see I practice what I preach. They may not be flying a 747 but they may eventually want to fly an airliner or do corporate. Both require strict checklist discipline. Why start them off on a bad foot?
 
jordane93 said:
I train my students to use checklists for every phase of flight. I make sure they see me do a checklist because I want them to see I practice what I preach. They may not be flying a 747 but they may eventually want to fly an airliner or do corporate. Both require strict checklist discipline. Why start them off on a bad foot?
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He said he's fine with establishing standards for students. I think the discussion was what people do in practice well after being a student. I just haven't met anyone who uses a paper checklist for climb or cruise, for example, on non-complex singles (pipers, cessnas). Maybe a lot of people do, but that just hasn't been what I've seen. I'm not saying they are right in their actions.
 
Bonchie said:
He said he's fine with establishing standards for students. I think the discussion was what people do in practice well after being a student. I just haven't met anyone who uses a paper checklist for climb or cruise, for example, on non-complex singles (pipers, cessnas). Maybe a lot of people do, but that just hasn't been what I've seen. I'm not saying they are right in their actions.
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Yea I'm interested as well. I personally pull out my checklist. I have yet to find a reason that no checklist is better than using a checklist
 
jordane93 said:
Yea I'm interested as well. I personally pull out my checklist. I have yet to find a reason that no checklist is better than using a checklist
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What I do is determined by what I am flying. There is a difference between a 500,000lb transport aircraft and a Cessna 152. But, people can do whatever they are comfortable with, as long as they are consistent and safe. I have no problem with someone who flies a small, single engine airplane and memorizes the airborne checklists, as long as they are performed consistently. I actually don't think it is any less safe to memorize a landing checklist than it is to look at a checklist and read it off. Personally, I am more likely to look at something and not process it than I am to miss something that I recite from memory. Pulling out a landing checklist just to look at it when I know exactly what is on it is a distraction to me, and I'm sure to some others as well. But I do have a problem with blanket condemnations, which is usually a sign of immaturity or inexperience, and is the reason I initially responded to this post.
 
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Cooter143 said:
What I do is determined by what I am flying. There is a difference between a 500,000lb transport aircraft and a Cessna 152. But, people can do whatever they are comfortable with, as long as they are consistent and safe. I have no problem with someone who flies a small, single engine airplane and memorizes the airborne checklists, as long as they are performed consistently. I actually don't think it is any less safe to memorize a landing checklist than it is to look at a checklist and read it off. Personally, I am more likely to look at something and not process it than I am to miss something that I recite from memory. Pulling out a landing checklist just to look at it when I know exactly what is on it is a distraction to me, and I'm sure to some others as well. But I do have a problem with blanket condemnations, which is usually a sign of immaturity or inexperience, and is the reason I initially responded to this post.
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For me it comes down the discipline. After I got my ticket, I didn't use checklists. Did I die? No. But when I training for my CFI, my CFI told me, "If you do a maneuver, landing, demonstration, etc, sloppy, then your student is going to do it 10 times worse." If someone is flying a 172 can't even pull out the checklist then it may be hard for them to transition to a more difficult single or an airliner if they're going that route. Let's be honest here. Is it that hard for me to pull out the landing checklist to verify that my flaps are down and my landing light is on in my 172.
 
jordane93 said:
For me it comes down the discipline. After I got my ticket, I didn't use checklists. Did I die? No. But when I training for my CFI, my CFI told me, "If you do a maneuver, landing, demonstration, etc, sloppy, then your student is going to do it 10 times worse." If someone is flying a 172 can't even pull out the checklist then it may be hard for them to transition to a more difficult single or an airliner if they're going that route. Let's be honest here. Is it that hard for me to pull out the landing checklist to verify that my flaps are down and my landing light is on in my 172.
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If checklist usage is what prevents them from making the transition, then they have other problems and didn't need to be there anyway. But, you are not following the points being made. Acting as an instructor with a student, and acting as PIC of your own plane are not the same thing. If you think it is important to pull out a checklist to remind yourself of the two steps that never change, have at it. I wouldn't discourage you from doing it in most circumstances, but in some I might.
 
I had a annual checkride a few years back - 172, for CAP (I know, I know), and the check pilot mentioned I should use the before landing checklist. In a 172. I pointed out that I had, from memory, all three or four items. That includes the one about reducing power, often necessary to land, and intuitively self correcting
in my experience.

In a constant speed retract, I would have. At an uncontrolled field on a sunny Saturday morning, I preferred to be looking outside.
 
Sundancer said:
I had a annual checkride a few years back - 172, for CAP (I know, I know), and the check pilot mentioned I should use the before landing checklist. In a 172. I pointed out that I had, from memory, all three or four items. That includes the one about reducing power, often necessary to land, and intuitively self correcting
in my experience.

In a constant speed retract, I would have. At an uncontrolled field on a sunny Saturday morning, I preferred to be looking outside.
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Umm, if you had it from memory, you would know whether it was three or four items. Except it's SIX on a 172S. And reducing power isn't one of them.
 
Note the "few years back" part, on a model I no longer fly; and it is kinda sad if you got out a checklist to, uh, check. . . Unless you have it memorized?

I also don't recall checklists from other airplanes I no longer fly, though quite a bit the bold face remains in my memory. . .
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, if you had it from memory, you would know whether it was three or four items. Except it's SIX on a 172S. And reducing power isn't one of them.
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And nearly all of them are "AS REQUIRED," which you should be *doing* as-required, based on your skills as a pilot... not when you read the checklist. And I'm not going to double-check anything except a gear handle over the threshold. In a bigger airplane with more systems, absolutely. In a Skyhawk... or even a Bonanza or Mooney? Seriously?

I guess I should write a BEFORE START, HIGHWAY, and BEFORE PARKING checklist for my truck.
 
DavidWhite said:
He's CAP......'nuff said.

http://www.alaskapublic.org/2016/01/05/downtown-crash-rattles-culture-of-trust-in-civil-air-patrol/
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Jeez, that's a serious non sequitur. Some jerk in Alaska steals an aircraft and commits suicide, and that has anything at all to do with checklist use? You do realize that's exactly the same logic that says those little airplanes are

For the record, I learned my checklist lessons well before CAP was in the picture. From observing our flight crews at work. THESE are pros I respect. And if you think you are above checklists, you're not in their league.
 
That's cool, and as did I - I'm suggesting that every transition phase, in a very simple fixed gear single, doesn't warrant a checklist in hand, that's all. . .and that a rational pilot of some experience can know when that applies.

Based on my experience, I use the checklist on engine start and run-up; not in cruise, descent, or landing, not in a 172. Someone who flys a 172 every day may need less; and no issue with having students use checklists.

I think it IS important to not/not elevate the trivial to the essential, else the important things become trivialized. That's one way safety programs loose credibility - tell a guy the descent checklist in a 172 is essential, he knows you're full of it - cred us gone. . .
 
MAKG1 said:
Jeez, that's a serious non sequitur. Some jerk in Alaska steals an aircraft and commits suicide, and that has anything at all to do with checklist use? You do realize that's exactly the same logic that says those little airplanes are

For the record, I learned my checklist lessons well before CAP was in the picture. From observing our flight crews at work. THESE are pros I respect. And if you think you are above checklists, you're not in their league.
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Well apparently checklists can't teach a monkey to talk on the radio.
 
Hello,

The original reason for my post was because the engine died while on the ground. The CFI told me while I was learning to taxi. Oh the reason why this happened is because we had the air conditioner on when the plane is at idle. He told me we have to turn it off before landing. He didn't follow a landing checklist. If an ac is added in a cessna 172 and you KNOW the engine cuts off on idle should that be added to a landing checklist? This could've been much worse.
 
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FloridaPilot said:
Hello,

The original reason for my post was because the engine died while on the ground. The CFI told me while I was learning to taxi. Oh the reason why this happened is because we had the air conditioner on when the plane is at idle. He told me we have to turn it off before landing. He didn't follow a landing checklist. If an ac is added in a cessna 172 and you KNOW the engine cuts off on idle should that be added to a landing checklist? This could've been much worse.
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If it causes the engine to quit at idle, then it should be on the landing Checklist or the pre-descent checklist. Although I'm not sure why you'd want one if you can't use it in the pattern. Is it not on there? Or, is it on the checklist and he forgot to do it?
 
Cooter143 said:
If it causes the engine to quit at idle, then it should be on the landing Checklist or the pre-descent checklist. Although I'm not sure why you'd want one if you can't use it in the pattern. Is it not on there? Or, is it on the checklist and he forgot to do it?
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I should've asked him, (CFI) if he uses a landing checklist because I haven't seen it. The flight was rushed because of the approaching thunderstorms. From what I know with my limited flying knowledge rushing a flight is bad, landing without a checklist is another step in the chain of an aircraft accident.
 
All the expertise gained on an intro flight. Must be a heck of a CFI to impart so much knowledge to you in a single flight. CFI's really like the all knowing potential pilot.
 
KA550 said:
All the expertise gained on an intro flight. Must be a heck of a CFI to impart so much knowledge to you in a single flight. CFI's really like the all knowing potential pilot.
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Do I sense a bit of sarcasm there?

The CFI I went up with just wasn't a match, when on an intro flight I do very little talking and I absorb as much as I can. I take learning to fly VERY seriously. As a student pilot I've learned a lot because I ask a lot of questions from experienced pilots, I still have a LONG way to go but one of the things I love about Aviation is there is always something new to learn. I've stopped and started a few times because of health issues.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Do I sense a bit of sarcasm there?

The CFI I went up with just wasn't a match, when on an intro flight I do very little talking and I absorb as much as I can. I take learning to fly VERY seriously. As a student pilot I've learned a lot because I ask a lot of questions from experienced pilots, I still have a LONG way to go but one of the things I love about Aviation is there is always something new to learn. I've stopped and started a few times because of health issues.
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I think the point is that a discovery flight should be more about seeing if you are interested in flying than evaluating the CFI. In order to really learn, you need to trust those who are teaching you and understand that they know more than you do.
 
Cooter143 said:
I think the point is that a discovery flight should be more about seeing if you are interested in flying than evaluating the CFI. In order to really learn, you need to trust those who are teaching you and understand that they know more than you do.
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I already know I would like to learn how to fly and ALL CFI's know more than I do. Interviewing the CFI is just as important you are learning his or her flying habits good or bad.
 
Hey I just want to throw out there, I happened to drive past that old flight school with the Cessna that quit. They closed down! Just like that no warning..nothing! You guys were right.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Hey I just want to throw out there, I happened to drive past that old flight school with the Cessna that quit. They closed down! Just like that no warning..nothing! You guys were right.
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Do you know if it was strictly financial, or did it involve a crash? I could see either happening at a poorly run outfit.

Good thing it didn't bend you over....sudden closures with no warning do happen occasionally, and the guys who prepay "blocks" of time get screwed.

I presume you found a better instructor.
 
Bonchie said:
Seriously, look at clubs if you really want to do this.

Structured flight schools with G1000 172s are nice, but I'd much rather pay less, be in a good club and do it that way. Then once you have the PPL, you've got planes to actually fly somewhere.
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Training on steam gauges builds character. Op needs to find a old 172 with no A/C and learn in that.
 
MAKG1 said:
Do you know if it was strictly financial, or did it involve a crash? I could see either happening at a poorly run outfit.

Good thing it didn't bend you over....sudden closures with no warning do happen occasionally, and the guys who prepay "blocks" of time get screwed.

I presume you found a better instructor.
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Yep, I knew something was up when I took an intro flight there. I don't like to see schools close down but poorly run ones should. Flight schools are a tough market. I went up north and found a school and finished a few months ago

midcap said:
Training on steam gauges builds character. Op needs to find a old 172 with no A/C and learn in that.
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No A/C? Florida is too hot, especially with the kind of money I dished out I shouldn't have to melt in the airplane. I'm going for my IFR and complex next year and I'm going to take spin training as well.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Yep, I knew something was up when I took an intro flight there. I don't like to see schools close down but poorly run ones should. Flight schools are a tough market. I went up north and found a school and finished a few months ago



No A/C? Florida is too hot, especially with the kind of money I dished out I shouldn't have to melt in the airplane. I'm going for my IFR and complex next year and I'm going to take spin training as well.
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Too Hot in Florida? Look at the Temps and Relative Humidity at KHUM during the summer. Then again, my rates are probably much cheaper than what you are paying.
 
midcap said:
Too Hot in Florida? Look at the Temps and Relative Humidity at KHUM during the summer. Then again, my rates are probably much cheaper than what you are paying.
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I know it's hot in LA been there a few times in the summer months myself. It's about identical if not a bit warmer here in Florida. Flight school price...you are probably right
 
Having skipped over a lot of the checklist banter, I fly a 172S with the Keith A/C mod. First of all, it's freaking awesome in the hot summers here at AJO. Off for takeoff and landing (in case of go-around), but okay for all other ground ops and once in cruise climb. It also has a fan hi-lo setting so you can run just the fans and not the A/C compressor. It's a great unit and doesn't use a scoop to slow you down. All in all the empty weight increases by about 59 lbs (~1807 in my case, 172S G1000), and cg moves 1" aft.

Even with the A/C on though, at full idle, the engine shouldn't die. It gets close a few times but never actually stops.
 
FloridaPilot said:
No A/C? Florida is too hot, especially with the kind of money I dished out I shouldn't have to melt in the airplane. I'm going for my IFR and complex next year and I'm going to take spin training as well.
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A/C in small GA planes is not common at all. Even in FL.

It's not that necessary after you finish training because you aren't dinking around under 2k feet all day. Open the windows for taxi so the prop keeps you cool and a few minutes after takeoff, the air coming in is plenty cool.
 
Bonchie said:
A/C in small GA planes is not common at all. Even in FL.

It's not that necessary after you finish training because you aren't dinking around under 2k feet all day. Open the windows for taxi so the prop keeps you cool and a few minutes after takeoff, the air coming in is plenty cool.
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This. In the air, I rarely use my A/C even in summer. On the ground it's really nice to have, but certainly not a requirement.
 
I need to take a taxi run in an A/C piston one of these days. I used to own a PA-28 with the equipment for A/C (removed the compressor but the rest of the fans and hardware remained, which made it heavier than it could have been in retrospect) and I was never impressed with the volumetric capacity of the fan blower. I've often wondered how piston prop A/Cs compare to automotive applications.

Down here in TX in the summer, if you don't have a no-kidding automotive fan pushing a firehose blast of cold air into your body/face like you do in cars, you might as well just open the door and try to get to wheels up in less than 5 minutes from strapping in. Something like the flow rate from the footwell ram air eyelets in PA28s, yeah I can see that doing the trick if air conditioned. I just don't see that little pee trickle from the mini-vents overhead doing anything for me on the ground though. But again, never sat in on one with an operational compressor. Did ride pax on a C-340 once with A/C, in Oklahoma in the early summer, and we were still poaching back there. It'll probably keep up with an 80deg day outside to be tolerable. But 85-90+ and humidity, no chance. Wasn't impressed.
 
I found those fans to be better than nothing, but I quickly developed the habit of taxiing PA28s with the door hanging open, and closing it right before takeoff, in hot weather.
 
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