Cell phone use in the air

swingwing

swingwing

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What is the legality of phone use while flying? I don't do it, but find it is harder and harder to keep passengers..... mainly my wife :mad: (our kids don't have phone yet)... from texting and answering call while in the air.

Based on a quick search it appears to be illegal but I'm not seeing any enforcement actions. On another GA fourm pilots say they do it routinely.
 
If you are PIC, you set the rules for safety of the flight. If you don't want people using them while you fly, you can prohibit it if you like.

I'm not aware of any regulations against the use of phones by passengers of a GA aircraft. I bet someone can dig up a general "distracts from the safety of the flight" type regulation that might apply broadly, but there is no specific rule against it to my knowledge.
 
I've never tried it. Do cellphones work at altitude? I've heard that when multiple towers detect a signal they block or disable the call. Has anyone experienced that?
 
In most areas that I fly over, I can't get cell reception over about 3.000' to 4,000' AGL. It's been said that cell tower signals are aimed out and down, not up. I assume this is accurate. I'll occasionally check weather, email, etc., on the iPad while flying. It's tethered to the phone's wifi hotspot and I t's quickly evident whether I have connectivity or not.

Texts are a different matter, they'll sit there waiting to come/go when there is no signal, then they are sent/received once signal is available.

Cheyenne said:
I've never tried it. Do cellphones work at altitude? I've heard that when multiple towers detect a signal they block or disable the call. Has anyone experienced that?
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I'm pretty sure that was true of the old analog system, not sure if it's true with today's digital systems.
 
The above is the FCC regulation. The FAA regulation is 14 CFR 91.21 and pertains to portable electronic devices in general and does not specifically mention cell phones. Basically it is up to the PIC in Part 91 operations and the certificate holder in the case of 135 or 121 operations. So ultimately cell phones are basically an absolute no-no by virtue of the FCC regulation and other PEDs are up to the operator or PIC by virtue of the FAA regulation but only after they make a determination as to any interference it may cause to the navigation and communication equipment.

This is why you have an airplane mode on modern smart phones.
 
SkyDog58 said:
The above is the FCC regulation. The FAA regulation is 14 CFR 91.21 and pertains to portable electronic devices in general and does not specifically mention cell phones. Basically it is up to the PIC in Part 91 operations and the certificate holder in the case of 135 or 121 operations. So ultimately cell phones are basically an absolute no-no by virtue of the FCC regulation and other PEDs are up to the operator or PIC by virtue of the FAA regulation but only after they make a determination as to any interference it may cause to the navigation and communication equipment.

This is why you have an airplane mode on modern smart phones.
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You referred to a regulation from the FCC that says phones must be turned off, then told us it’s why modern (didn’t know there were any ancient) cell phones have “airplane mode.” So, you wanna clear that up for us?

“22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.
Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off.”
 
I know several pilots who lost radio communication and have called the tower for permission to land. I don't use cell phones when I fly but I would not object if a passenger wanted to text or try to call someone. As for calling someone it's really to loud in the plane to carry on a conversation. I have been told the best way to use a cell phone is to put the phone under your headset
 
Lachlan said:
You referred to a regulation from the FCC that says phones must be turned off, then told us it’s why modern (didn’t know there were any ancient) cell phones have “airplane mode.” So, you wanna clear that up for us?

“22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.
Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off.”
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Because your "smart phone" is a multi-function PED that includes a cell phone. Switching off the cell phone portion of your PED satisfies the requirements of the FCC regulation.
 
I find it rarely works in urban areas, more likely to work in the boonies, where cell towers are fewer and you're not hitting so many.

My cellphone connects through my PSE audio panel, and I have on occasion conducted a conversation while cruising at 8 or 10 thousand. Would never count on it working, though. Texts eventually go, but almost never a persistent enough connection for useful data.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Because your "smart phone" is a multi-function PED that includes a cell phone. Switching off the cell phone portion of your PED satisfies the requirements of the FCC regulation.
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I did not see such a distinction in that regulation. ;)
 
Lachlan said:
You referred to a regulation from the FCC that says phones must be turned off, then told us it’s why modern (didn’t know there were any ancient) cell phones have “airplane mode.” So, you wanna clear that up for us?

“22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones
Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must be turned off.”
Click to expand...

Once again we have people who don't know how to understand federal regs work. Part 22 doesn't apply to every cellular telephone out there. Things we call "cellular" telephones are a hodgepodge of Part 22, part 24, and a few others. 22.925 dates from the old ANALOG AMPS service days and doesn't apply to much of current cellular operation. It really should be done away with and I know of NOBODY it's been used at as far as end users.
 
The European rules (I just tried to check this) seem ambiguous too.
As I read them they seem to proclude or prohibit using iPads, and tablets even.
And they break down into "non intentional transmitters" (PED) that seem to mean they must be turned off. And intentional (anything with wifi, Bluetooth, GSM) transmitters that then apparently get unintentional transmitter status when turned off or to airplane mode.

It's really not easy to understand what the rule actually is. At least after reading through I think I better try reading it four five times more, spending a lot of time on each sentence...but first better go out and buy a six pack.

I hope I don't get this on my exam.
 
I’ve gotten service up to like 8000ft. I usually just put it on airplane mode. There’s no reason to use my phone
 
Lachlan said:
I did not see such a distinction in that regulation. ;)
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Yeah. Ok. :rolleyes:

There are other publications though that help to clarify things a bit.

Here is a link to the FAA webpage for PEDs.

Here is a direct link to InFO 13010.

You will notice the deference to the FCC regulations in regards to the actual use of cell phones and the instructions to use airplane mode to use your PED's other functions without violating the FCC regulations.
 
Lachlan said:
I did not see such a distinction in that regulation. ;)
Click to expand...
I do see this distinction, however, in that quoted regulation. Hint: old analogue cellular circa 2002.

§22.905 Channels for cellular service.
The following frequency bands are allocated for assignment to service providers in the Cellular Radiotelephone Service.

(a) Channel Block A: 869-880 MHz paired with 824-835 MHz, and 890-891.5 MHz paired with 845-846.5 MHz.

(b) Channel Block B: 880-890 MHz paired with 835-845 MHz, and 891.5-894 MHz paired with 846.5-849 MHz.

[67 FR 77191, Dec. 17, 2002]
 
Yesterday, on the way to Gastons, Lisa was using her smartphone to post to Facebook Live at 9,000ft.

Worked better than any of us expected. Maybe the signal was bouncing off the underside of Mike's 182 wing?
 
luvflyin said:
Time out's. Grounding. Cutting off allowance. Cancelling her credit cards. Having your paycheck go into a 'you only account' instead of a joint account. Doing some spin practice every time they touch their phones...................
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Spin practice if she touches her phone! That’s it right there!

With an innocent look on my face, “Sorry, Honey. I don’t know what happened there. Did you touch your phone? I guess I’ll need to install a new piece of equipment to prevent that in the future. I hear that an AOA indicator will stop that from happening.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I do see this distinction, however, in that quoted regulation. Hint: old analogue cellular circa 2002.

§22.905 Channels for cellular service.
The following frequency bands are allocated for assignment to service providers in the Cellular Radiotelephone Service.

(a) Channel Block A: 869-880 MHz paired with 824-835 MHz, and 890-891.5 MHz paired with 845-846.5 MHz.

(b) Channel Block B: 880-890 MHz paired with 835-845 MHz, and 891.5-894 MHz paired with 846.5-849 MHz.

[67 FR 77191, Dec. 17, 2002]
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Which has nothing at all to do with the legality or otherwise of cellular phone calls made while airborne. ;)
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah. Ok. :rolleyes:

There are other publications though that help to clarify things a bit.

Here is a link to the FAA webpage for PEDs.

Here is a direct link to InFO 13010.

You will notice the deference to the FCC regulations in regards to the actual use of cell phones and the instructions to use airplane mode to use your PED's other functions without violating the FCC regulations.
Click to expand...

Agreed. One must piece them together to understand what is and is not allowed. Bottom line, though, is that cellular calls made while airborne are not allowed per FCC regulation.
 
I usually tell folks that it is best to turn off the phone since it will use the battery at a faster rate searching for towers.

Other than that if I need to make a call I just switch to the sat phone.
 
Zeldman said:
I usually tell folks that it is best to turn off the phone since it will use the battery at a faster rate searching for towers.

Other than that if I need to make a call I just switch to the sat phone.
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What if it’s sun-fri?
 
Lachlan said:
Which has nothing at all to do with the legality or otherwise of cellular phone calls made while airborne. ;)
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Both the passage he quoted, and the prohibition quoted earlier, appear in Part 22 Subpart H, which defines what cellular service is and provides rules for it. The passage he quoted defines the frequency bands to which Subpart H applies. I think the theory is that devices that use other frequencies are covered elsewhere than Subpart H, and are therefore not subject to its prohibition clause.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrie...c=true&n=pt47.2.22&r=PART&ty=HTML#sp47.2.22.h
 
Seems like most pilots are using aviation apps on their phone these days. I suspect the FAA is only keeping these regs on the books so they can ding commercial pilots for playing on their phones. If it ever came to a head they'd almost have to make an exception for people now using their phones/tablets as an EFB.
 
Lachlan said:
Which has nothing at all to do with the legality or otherwise of cellular phone calls made while airborne. ;)
Click to expand...

Really?

Would you prefer this passage from the FCC in 2013?

II. BACKGROUND

A. FCC Regulations Limiting Airborne Mobile Use
5. Commission rules governing the use of airborne mobile devices vary significantly among services. Specifically, airborne use of the 800 MHz cellular band is prohibited and airborne use of the 800 MHz SMR band is prohibited on aircraft that typically fly at altitudes over one mile. There are no such restrictions on airborne use of the AWS, PCS, WCS, 700 MHz, or AWS-4 bands.​

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-13-157A1_Rcd.pdf
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Really?

Would you prefer this passage from the FCC in 2013?

II. BACKGROUND

A. FCC Regulations Limiting Airborne Mobile Use
5. Commission rules governing the use of airborne mobile devices vary significantly among services. Specifically, airborne use of the 800 MHz cellular band is prohibited and airborne use of the 800 MHz SMR band is prohibited on aircraft that typically fly at altitudes over one mile. There are no such restrictions on airborne use of the AWS, PCS, WCS, 700 MHz, or AWS-4 bands.​

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-13-157A1_Rcd.pdf
Click to expand...

Is that from the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking that you linked to above? Was it accepted and in force as the new regulation? I’m really asking, because it’s still not 100% clear to me. Call me stoopid, but there’s proposed rulemaking, there’s “in theory,” and then there’s the FCC.

And then there’s this little thing...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ts-proposal-to-allow-cellphone-use-on-planes/
 
Your article is referencing the proposed rule I linked to, that Wheeler withdrew, in part due to complaints from flight attendants and a raft of goofy media noise.

Note that in the reference I posted, the FCC themselves states that the original rule was outdated, only regulates the old 800MHZ phones, the new technology is not addressed, and a clarification was needed.

Don’t spend too much time on a mainstream press articles regarding cell phones and commercial air travel. The reporters don’t get that any more right than other aviation stuff they write.

If Greebo (Scott) ever returns here, he can comment as he was on the committee that wrote the original reg that was posted, and was trying to get it updated.
 
No one will fault your for using a cellphone on a GA aircraft when this is a flight emergency, casual use is prohibited.
 
At this point, the regs are such a flaming pile of obsoleteness, I have no idea how the FCC would ever get anything a pilot uses on his own GA plane to stick, if they ever tried to enforce something in there.

Commercial flights are a whole different animal, though.
 
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When I had a headset that did the Bluetooth thing I found I only got sufficient reception in the landing pattern or on approach to it. Why it would bother anyone I don't know. If someone's futzing around with their screen they aren't saying "are we there yet" or doing any of the other ten zillion annoying/distracting/unhelpful things. Even if it is illegal I doubt the phone police are coming after you.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I do see this distinction, however, in that quoted regulation. Hint: old analogue cellular circa 2002.

§22.905 Channels for cellular service.
The following frequency bands are allocated for assignment to service providers in the Cellular Radiotelephone Service.

(a) Channel Block A: 869-880 MHz paired with 824-835 MHz, and 890-891.5 MHz paired with 845-846.5 MHz.

(b) Channel Block B: 880-890 MHz paired with 835-845 MHz, and 891.5-894 MHz paired with 846.5-849 MHz.

[67 FR 77191, Dec. 17, 2002]
Click to expand...

And only certain carriers ever had or ever will have Block A and B licenses... so if you choose your carrier wisely, you can actually avoid devices that will even attempt to use those frequencies. ;)

ElPaso Pilot said:
Really?

Would you prefer this passage from the FCC in 2013?

II. BACKGROUND

A. FCC Regulations Limiting Airborne Mobile Use
5. Commission rules governing the use of airborne mobile devices vary significantly among services. Specifically, airborne use of the 800 MHz cellular band is prohibited and airborne use of the 800 MHz SMR band is prohibited on aircraft that typically fly at altitudes over one mile. There are no such restrictions on airborne use of the AWS, PCS, WCS, 700 MHz, or AWS-4 bands.​

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-13-157A1_Rcd.pdf
Click to expand...

Essentially FAA tossing FCC’s mess back in their face and saying they want no part of it.

ElPaso Pilot said:
At this point, the regs are such a flaming pile of obsoleteness, I have no idea how the FCC would ever get anything a pilot uses on his own GA plane to stick, if they every tried to enforce something in there.

Commercial flights are a whole different animal, though.
Click to expand...

This. FCC doesn’t give a rat’s butt anymore, and FAA only cares about overall PED interference.
 
olasek said:
...casual use is prohibited.
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Where is that stated in the regs?

Per above, the prohibition only applies to specific, typically outdated handsets. And “casual” appears nowhere.
 
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swingwing said:
What is the legality of phone use while flying? I don't do it, but find it is harder and harder to keep passengers..... mainly my wife :mad: (our kids don't have phone yet)... from texting and answering call while in the air.

Based on a quick search it appears to be illegal but I'm not seeing any enforcement actions. On another GA fourm pilots say they do it routinely.
Click to expand...

On my checkride my examiner asked me how I would contact the tower if I lost coms, I gave the safe answer but he said just try and call them on your phone. He's done it before he said.

I always keep my phone on, I have the iPhone finder app and my family can see where I am when I'm flying usually..
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Your article is referencing the proposed rule I linked to, that Wheeler withdrew, in part due to complaints from flight attendants and a raft of goofy media noise.

Note that in the reference I posted, the FCC themselves states that the original rule was outdated, only regulates the old 800MHZ phones, the new technology is not addressed, and a clarification was needed.

Don’t spend too much time on a mainstream press articles regarding cell phones and commercial air travel. The reporters don’t get that any more right than other aviation stuff they write.

If Greebo (Scott) ever returns here, he can comment as he was on the committee that wrote the original reg that was posted, and was trying to get it updated.
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Ok. I don’t believe it was actually updated, though, so it is still unlawful, right? I just want to see a real source that says it is lawful to make cellular phone calls from a personal cell phone while airborne. There’s plenty of stuff from the FCC saying it isn’t. Just because you say it should be, or it’s outdated, or needs to be revisited, does not mean it is lawful. Shoot, in some states it’s probably unlawful to leave your llama untied outside the feed store unless you’re transgendered, but just because you disagree with said law does not mean it’s now legal to park your camelid untethered. All I’m asking for is clear proof from the FCC that it is LEGAL and NOT prohibited to make cellular phone calls from the air. I’m not saying it it is or is not legal; I’m asking for proof that it is legal.
 
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