Cat IIIB approach video

[Larry in TN]

For us simple folk, exactly what does autoland do? Does it flare and pull back the engines automatically? Or does it get to the flare? Do you still have to manually maintain the centerline while slowing down?

It depends on the capabilities of the aircraft.

A fail-active system will land and stop on the centerline. You have to disconnect the autopilot to taxi of the runway. Since it can manage the entire rollout, the pilots don't have to see anything to land. They will have an Alert Height (AH) instead of a Decision Height. The AH is normally 100' above touchdown and is the last point where the pilots verify the status of the autoland system through the airplanes annunciators. The 767, for example, will show "LAND 3" in the autoland status annunciator. If anything fails after the AH, an engine, a hydraulic system, an electrical system (they are isolated at that point), an autopilot (it requires at least two), etc., the autoland continues.

A fail-passive system will land but then the pilots must "fly" the rollout. On the 737, a fail-passive system, the two autopilots manage the landing. At touchdown the autothrottles disconnect and the autopilot must be manually disconnected. The rollout is then "flown" as in any other landing. Since the pilots must see well enough to manage the rollout, a fail-passive autoland requires a DH of 50' from which you must be able to see to land similarly to a normal CAT I ILS except that the autopilot still makes the landing.

In both cases the required auto-brakes will slow, and eventually stop, the airplane if not disengaged first and the pilots must verify auto-spoiler extension then manually apply reverse thrust.

When the CAT II/CAT III capabilities are based on a HUD, instead of an autoland system, the approach and landing are hand-flown looking through the HUD. I've never flown a HUD-based system so don't know the specific requirements.

 

[sferguson524]

Unless you are Southwest with a HUD.

Oh, wait. That might only be for Cat II approaches.

Couple weekends ago, we flew Southwest from LAS to LAX. Was 200' ceilings and 800 RVR.... 2 missed approaches and a diversion to ONT for fuel later, we got into LAX...

 

[Larry in TN]

Damn man why don't we have fully autonomous airliners yet???

Most runways don't have CAT III approaches.

Autoland has a lot of restrictions such as wind, braking action, and system requirements that we can fly fine without. For example, I recently landed at ORD Rwy 27L with winds of 33025G43. Our autoland wind limits are 25kts headwind component and 15kts crossing. Also, the G/S was out of service on that Rwy which would have prevented an autoland, too.

Couple weekends ago, we flew Southwest from LAS to LAX. Was 200' ceilings and 800 RVR.... 2 missed approaches and a diversion to ONT for fuel later, we got into LAX...

Without CAT III capabilities, you wouldn't have been legal to try those two approaches.

 

[Kritchlow]

For us simple folk, exactly what does autoland do? Does it flare and pull back the engines automatically? Or does it get to the flare? Do you still have to manually maintain the centerline while slowing down?

It sounds like it does everything, including insulting you for letting it land for you!!!

The avionic magic does EVERYthing for you. Except extend the gear.

A few years ago, I got some sim time in a B787. The instructor did a great job showing us the autoland, autobrake features. Then he set it up for a full blown Cat 3 approach and land.

Out the front window, it was all white milk bottle. All we had to do was follow his instructions for the knobology and set the flaps and gear at the appropriate points. Auto throttles, auto land, auto brake took us all the way to the runway for a nice landing and easy stop with lots of concrete to spare.

Only speaking for the A320 series aircraft, but flaps and gear are totally on the pilots. Flare and rollout are on the airplane. Auto thrust is a combination. It will hold speed, then scream “retard” when it wants you to pull throttles to idle. Autopilot will hold centerline on rollout.

 

[nauga]

Damn man why don't we have fully autonomous airliners yet???

Somebody's got to feed the dog.

Nauga,
the dog trainer

 

[Sundancer]

The C-141A had autoland back in the 60's and 70's. They called it AWLS, and if I recall, it was all the way down to flare and touchdown.

The shaggy dog story was the pilot who wrote it up one aircraft for "AWLS landings too rough". The writeup was cleared by the AP tech as "AWLS nit installed".

 

[CC268]

Somebody's got to feed the dog.

Nauga,
the dog trainer

I believe in you

 

[charheep]

. It will hold speed, then scream “retard” when it wants you to pull throttles to idle. Autopilot will hold centerline on rollout.

Man thats funny. Just a thing yelling retard until you do something. Its like being married.

I had no idea it would flare and do the rollout. Kinda crazy and cool. Thanks for the info.

 

[FlySince9]

In those conditions, looks like 20 or 30 feet visibility on the roll out... Taxiing to the ramp must be just as challenging, no?

 

[mscard88]

Flown a few CAT IIs in CRJs. Really not a lot different than a coupled CAT I except for company procedures, call outs, required operational equipment, specific training, and a DH of 100’. Captain required to do the landing. Pretty cool to fly IMO.

Years ago flew the C141 sim at McGuire and I think it was CATIII they were using.

 

[Shepherd]

Last March. Got caught out when the weather dramatically changed after I took off.
Started out in partly cloudy, 3,500 broken, 10 miles visibility.
Fifteen minutes later it went to this. When I landed I was 0 on clouds and 25 to 50 feet visibility
You can see it starting to change, but I was a little too busy to take pictures when it all went to crap.
I used Avare navigate, and hung my lanyard with my license from the air frame to give me an a little help to keep it level in pitch, and roll.
This is one of the reasons I'm always harping on learning to fly in IMC, know your plane, know how to improvise.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

... and hung my lanyard with my license from the air frame to give me an a little help to keep it level in pitch, and roll. ...

Your pendulum can hang straight "down" during a barrel roll, or a steep turn. That's why we have attitude indicators.

 

[benyflyguy]

Last March. Got caught out when the weather dramatically changed after I took off.
Started out in partly cloudy, 3,500 broken, 10 miles visibility.
Fifteen minutes later in went to this. When I landed I was 0 on clouds and 25 to 50 feet visibility
You can see it starting to change, but I was a little too busy to take pictures when it all went to crap.
I used Avare navigate, and hung my lanyard with my license from the air frame to give me an a little help to keep it level in pitch, and roll.
This is one of the reasons I'm always harping on learning to fly in IMC, know your plane, know how to improvise.


View attachment 68855 View attachment 68856 View attachment 68857

That’s Called a CUB-III approach if I recall....

 

[Shepherd]

Your pendulum can hang straight "down" during a barrel roll, or a steep turn. That's why we have attitude indicators.

Not trying any of those maneuvers in that kind of weather. You can take that to the bank.
Sometimes I miss the lack of instruments.

 

[Larry in TN]

In those conditions, looks like 20 or 30 feet visibility on the roll out... Taxiing to the ramp must be just as challenging, no?

That's what the SMGCS chart and procedures are for.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-57A.pdf

 

[Busflyer]

In those conditions, looks like 20 or 30 feet visibility on the roll out... Taxiing to the ramp must be just as challenging, no?

Most CAT III mins are 600’ of vis. I believe the lowest, at least for our airline, is 300’

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Not trying any of those maneuvers in that kind of weather. You can take that to the bank.
Sometimes I miss the lack of instruments.

You misunderstand; I was listing the bad stuff. Any coordinated turn will leave your pendulum—and inner ear—largely undisturbed. A hanging pendant, or glass of water, is utterly useless in IMC.

 

[Shepherd]

You misunderstand; I was listing the bad stuff. Any coordinated turn will leave your pendulum—and inner ear—largely undisturbed. A hanging pendant, or glass of water, is utterly useless in IMC.

Fly uncoordinated.

 

[PPC1052]

You misunderstand; I was listing the bad stuff. Any coordinated turn will leave your pendulum—and inner ear—largely undisturbed. A hanging pendant, or glass of water, is utterly useless in IMC.

Kenny, you can hang it up now. Shep is probably one of the most experienced and knowledgeable pilots there is. He knows what's what. But he's not above yanking a chain or two. (And for that, I'm thankful.)

edit: ....and to prove my point: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/any-veitnam-pilots-here.115263/#post-2638044

 

[Rcmutz]

I think I've done three autolands in in nearly four years on the 737 with the weather below CAT I minimums. Don't remember any on the 767/757. At least one CAT II on the DC8 and several CAT IIs on the DC9.

We do a lot of RNP approaches on the 737. We go to a number of airports where the RNP gives us the lowest minimums (SAN 27 & MFR 32 come to mind). They are also starting to use them at some large hub airports in place of vectors to final (IAH & DEN). The RNP approaches are one thing that, IMO, the 737 does really well. Latest manual revision lowered our lowest RNP authorization from 0.11 to 0.10 which, I believe, is as low as RNP currently goes.

Back in 1980, I worked at Boeing as a flight test engineer in the automatic flight control group. We did the first certification of a digital autoland system making use of a British Airways 737. We also were certifying the autothrottles and a HUD for use on the 737. Did thousands of landings all over the country with different runway slopes etc. needed to collect lots of touchdown dispersion data with different crosswinds and runway slopes. Lots of fun riding in the jump seat watching in VMC conditions initially, but in actual conditions later on and with the FAA on board. Sort of spooky watching the throttles retard by themselves with the test pilots guarding the throttles just in case!

 

[UngaWunga]

They sure do have a lot of smog in Delhi. And who were they calling a retard? That's offensive.

 

[PaulS]

Kenny, you can hang it up now. Shep is probably one of the most experienced and knowledgeable pilots there is. He knows what's what. But he's not above yanking a chain or two. (And for that, I'm thankful.)

I'm particularly impressed by the stones shown by whipping the camera out and snapping pics of the ice while in flight.

 

[Eric Stoltz]

Really spooky to be the PM on an autoland. Not trained to look out, just look at the needles and dials and knobs and lights and leevers and buttons and hear the plane land and holler "steer left, steer right, centerline" without seeing that it really happened until the CA asks, "can you see taxi way? Where are we?" Then using the iPad to drive around while the CA commands me to tell him when to turn. I got to finally see ground when stepping off the crew bus at the employee lot that was 100 feet higher than the runway. Pretty fantastic to experience in an old 737-400 that is a few years younger than me.

Almost just like that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[jspilot]

Because a female typically being more compassionate would say “special needs” rather than “retard” and that just wouldn’t work.

As someone who teaches students with learning disabilities everyday for the past 13 years, your post is a pathetic and offensive attempt at humor and you should apologize. Conflating, “retard” with “special needs” should not be done as a joke. Words have meanings so try and at least not elect to make fun of an entire group of people!

Sorry to those who are actually here discussing this amazing landing but I hope you can understand why I can’t let this go unchecked.

 

[SkyDog58]

Really spooky to be the PM on an autoland. Not trained to look out, just look at the needles and dials and knobs and lights and leevers and buttons and hear the plane land and holler "steer left, steer right, centerline" without seeing that it really happened until the CA asks, "can you see taxi way? Where are we?" Then using the iPad to drive around while the CA commands me to tell him when to turn. I got to finally see ground when stepping off the crew bus at the employee lot that was 100 feet higher than the runway. Pretty fantastic to experience in an old 737-400 that is a few years younger than me.

Almost just like that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

You think it’s spooky as PM? Try it in the jumpseat! It requires a lot of trust.

 

[SkyDog58]

As someone who teaches students with learning disabilities everyday for the past 13 years, your post is a pathetic and offensive attempt at humor and you should apologize. Conflating, “retard” with “special needs” should not be done as a joke. Words have meanings so try and at least not elect to make fun of an entire group of people!

Seems as if your sense of humor is a bit retarded. Sorry about that.

 

[jspilot]

Seems as if your sense of humor is a bit retarded. Sorry about that.

It’s not a joke when it’s offensive. Listen I’ve argued with you before on many topics. I’m not gonna argue again about your total lack of class. Muting you again!

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Fly uncoordinated.

That doesn’t change physics and magically make a pendulum a good attitude reference.

Keep that up and we will be missing you around here and wondering how such a smart and experienced guy balled it up.

 

[jspilot]

All jokes are offensive. “Jokes” that are not offensive are called statements.

Glad you felt the need to defend a guy who routinely insults people and groups on this board without any concern.

I make jokes all the time but I know not to cross a line. I don’t poke fun at people who have a legitimate need by calling them retarded. Anyway, you all keep showing your true colors and I’ll keep showing mine.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Glad you felt the need to defend a guy who routinely insults people and groups on this board without any concern.

I make jokes all the time. I don’t poke fun at people who have a legitimate need by calling them retarded. Anyway, you all keep showing your true colors and I’ll keep showing mine.

I’m not defending him. I think he’s an a hole. He routinely bounces on and off my ignore list.

Unless you never tell a joke that uses a human being in the punch line or any animal/inanimate object that some other person values them you are going to offend someone ... somewhere.

I agree with asking for some class ... just don’t insult him in the process.

 

[jspilot]

I’m not defending him. I think he’s an a hole. He routinely bounces on and off my ignore list.

Unless you never tell a joke that uses a human being in the punch line or any animal/inanimate object that some other person values them you are going to offend someone ... somewhere.

I agree with asking for some class ... just don’t insult him in the process.

Fair enough- Just asking for him to consider his words.

 

[mscard88]

Hmmm...

Just in case...



Back to the thread subject please, y’all made your point.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

You

Hmmm...

Just in case...

View attachment 68873

Back to the thread subject please, y’all made your point.

Apologies