Can student pilot fly into non-towered pattern of another airport?

Jeff Szlauko

Jeff Szlauko

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 8, 2016
Messages
146
Display Name
Display name:
ChopperJeff
I completed my first solo a few months ago, and am working towards my first cross country solo. I know as a student pilot, while soloing, I can only takeoff and land at the airport I've been training at, and can also fly to the practice area. However, is it OK to fly into the pattern at another airport? I ask as I need work on my non-towered communication skills. Seems easy enough, but for some reason, during my last cross country training, and the first one where I was to do all the talking, I had major brain freeze, and just couldn't get the words out. Part was due to the lack of knowing what to say ahead of time, and part was just having the pressure of the instructor sitting next to me. Got to thinking that flying alone and into the pattern of a non-towered airport would be good practice, but am not sure it's "legal".
 
Why don't you ask your CFI? He would have to check you out there, or should, and endorse your logbook in order to land there.
 
Last edited:
OK, yes, good idea. A quick text message to my CFI would clear it up.
 
See 14 CFR 61.93 (FAR 61.93).

61.93(a) provides the limitation and 61.93(b) provides the method for authorization.

Talk to your instructor about getting the authorization, under 61.93(b), to practice landings at a suitable non-towered field.
 
Last edited:
Flying into the pattern and then doing what? Doing a go-around before you land? While hypothetically you could do that without an endorsement, that doesn't mean you should, as it's violating the spirit of the regulation that says you should get an endorsement to practice landings at another airport.
 
He would not. While talking to your instructor would be worthwhile especially given your difficulties, it’s incumbent on you to know what is legal for you as pilot in command. See 61.87, 89, and 93.

But to answer the question, as last by as you remain within 25 miles and don’t land at the other airport (and it’s not in class b or whatever), you don’t need a specific solo endorsement to go through there.

However, if you don’t intend to land you’re probably well advised to stay clear of the pattern.
 
Rather than go to another airport and potentially cause an accident by not having situational awareness and communication skills, I’d recommend that you find some Class D airports near you on LiveATC and listen in. You can pull up the traffic on FlightRadar24 or have a sectional handy. Practice visualizing the traffic and responding/making calls. When you get comfortable with small airports, work you way up to Class C. Then fly with your instructor to work on your technique.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
...Part was due to the lack of knowing what to say ahead of time, and part was just having the pressure of the instructor sitting next to me. ..
Click to expand...

Why is having an instructor sitting next to you "pressure?" Pressure is when the DPE is sitting next to you. Having your instructor next to you should be fun and if not, you should find another instructor.
 
Just checked out FlightRadar24...very interesting site! Thanks! And yes, perhaps flying into the pattern at a non-towered airport with no intention of landing is a bad idea. Can practice on my own doing the old armchair flying, or using the x-plane flight sim. Seems my one big hurdle is letting go of the fear of messing up in front of my CFI. It's a vicious cycle, where the more a fear messing up, the more I mess up, and the more I mess up, the more I fear messing up.
 
Don’t fear messing up. We all do. It’s how you handle the recovery. For communications, you can always go plain text to get your point across.

Pick an active, uncontrolled airport near you. See if it’s on LiveATC. Listen to the communications for a while, visualizing what’s going on. You can bring up Flight Aware or similar to potentially see what’s going on. Pick someone doing laps and follow their progress on a sectional or google maps/google earth.

Fly the airport in your sim and practice the comms; hell even record it and play it back to debrief yourself and debrief with your CFI.
 
Don’t worry about messing up a radio call..cause guess what you will! I messed up a radio call with the DPE on my check ride and all he said was you sure about your location? I corrected it and we moved on..

Just relax, and remember the four W’s. Who your calling, who you are, where you are, and what do you want to do.

Podunk traffic, bugsmasher 342 on the 45 to the downwind for runway 34.

And if someone gives you a hard time cause you messed up a radio call, just tell them your a student pilot and give your position the best you can..abeam of the numbers on the departure end, abeam midfield in the downwind etc. you will get more comfortable the more you do it.

Maybe draw your local field on a piece of paper, get the weather so you know the active then pick different points around the airfield and think about what calls you would make. Cross midfield for the downwind etc.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
OK, yes, good idea. A quick text message to my CFI would clear it up.
Click to expand...

It always amazes me when a student pilot posts on here first rather than asking their CFI. Yes, it’s ok to seek out other opinions and I’d encourage everyone to do so but your CFI should be your number one and first resource for these sort of questions.
 
Did you ask your cfi to sign you off for this second airport?
 
All great responses. Thank you all! I also get caught up in saying everything correctly, with all the correct phrases and such, and get so caught up in HOW to say it, that I forget WHAT to say. My CFI realized this, and at one point said to simply say what needs to be said, with no concern about getting it exactly right. Getting the information out there is what’s important...far more important than how it was presented. Be nice if one could simply say “I’m 10 miles south of the airport, coming in to land”, but obviously, a lot more info is needed than that, especially when you’re over flying the runway in order to get into the proper traffic pattern, which is what we were doing. Then the call becomes “XYZ traffic, Cessna ABC, ten miles south, over fly midfield, right downwind, runway two five right, XYZ traffic”. Oh well, just need more practice. Will keep looking for further input too.
 
Cluemeister said:
Did you ask your cfi to sign you off for this second airport?
Click to expand...

I haven’t asked him yet. However, I know he wants me to be ready to do my first cross country solo, and suspect that he will not sign me off for another airport until I reach that point. Of course, I could be wrong.
 
Have you done dual x country yet to the airports that will be on your solo xc?
 
If your goal is to get more comfortable with non-towered airport communications in advance of flying into one, you can always just drive out and listen. I would suggest the following:

- Buy a spare handheld aviation radio (should probably have one anyways)
- Find a relatively busy non-towered airport - perhaps a place near a Delta or Charlie that gets lots of GA touch and go's.
- Go at a time when it's busy (weekends or early evenings after work)
- Sit in your car or their small airport building and just listen to pace, how terse they are, etc.
- If you don't want to buy a handheld, many small airport buildings have a radio always turned on.
- You can even look up and associate calls with actual aircraft in the pattern

...one thing this won't prepare you for is all the other traffic you might hear while up in the air. Even at pattern altitude on a busy day we are easily hearing traffic from about 15 different non-towered airports all on the same frequency easily over 75miles away. It can be so busy on rare occasions that you would be hard pressed to call each and every crosswind, downwind, base and final.

So you also learn to wait your turn, hear people getting stepped on, get stepped on, step on others, listening carefully to called out traffic locations, etc. You'll hear a lot of chatter too, sometimes amusing! And its free. Bonus: the non-towered fields can seem more friendly. Yesterday a babe flying a pretty blue & white Cherokee complimented my landings :) We had a brief chat on 122.8 while each was taxiing since the ground transmission doesn't get far and nobody was around.

Prior to my training I was always listening on the Unicom at our non-towered location. But then I started training at a towered field. I thought the comms out on the "frontier" would just be simple but I found myself stuttering a bit at first. Ironically the funniest day was the first time leaving the non-towered field back to the Delta. For some reason I was bungling up all the calls to the tower. I think my non-towered talk now sounds more terse and "tower-like" than had I trained at uncontrolled field.
 
A couple oddities here.

You normally fly from a TOWERED airport and you're worried about communications at a NON-TOWERED airport? Usually it's the other way around.

Also, of course your CFI has to endorse you for solo flights to any other airport. Look in the back of your log book. There's a spot from them to sign off on repeated flights to another airport within 25NM and repeated flights to another airport within 50NM. It's in FAR61.93
 
Two tips:

1. Buy Sporty's VFR Communications DVD. It's worth every penny for a student pilot and it covers uncontrolled airports as well as Class B, C, and D airports.

2. At an uncontrolled airport, there is almost no such thing as the wrong thing to say. The key is to maintain situational awareness of where others are, primarily with your eyes, and to use the radio to supplement both your own situational awareness and that of others in the area. There are some best practices to follow, and you'll develop habits as you go so it is important to practice good habits. But don't ever be paralyzed by wanting to get it right.

For example, I'd rather hear you say "Podunk, we're a Cessna ten miles to the east landing at Podunk" and then call again to say "Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is on left downwind for runway 1-0, Podunk" when you're in the traffic pattern than any of the following (only one of which contains a slight exaggeration of something I've actually heard on the radio):

Perfectly communicate "Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is 1-0 miles east, planning left downwind runway 1-0, Podunk" and then not say anything else until you clear the runway.

"Podunk area unicom, any traffic in the area please advise." This conveys nothing at all other than that you haven't been listening to the radio and don't plan to look with your eyes.

"Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is clear of the active." There's no such thing as "the active" at an uncontrolled airport, so this conveys no information at all.

"Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is over the final approach fix for runway 1-0, Podunk." This conveys the right information but only to pilots familiar with the instrument approaches for runway 10 at Podunk, which is likely to be about one in five pilots.

"Podunk...uh...." Minutes pass. "Podunk area traffic, this is...uh..." More time passes. "Podunk area, we're crossing midfield, and ... hold on....uh..." More time passes. "...ixture, prop, seatbelt. Podunk, Cessna, uh..." Moments later. "Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is clear of the active."

"Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is ten miles east, four thousand three hundred twenty feet, planning to cross midfield and then enter left downwind for runway 1-0, landing, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is six miles east, four thousand one hundred five feet, planning to cross midfield and ... wait, no, we won't need to cross the field to get on left downwind. So we're going to just enter a left downwind for runway 1-0. Landing at Podunk, full stop. Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is four miles east, three thousand feet, planning left downwind for runway 1-0, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is entering left downwind for runway 1-0, two thousand eight hundred feet, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is passing midfield over the fuel pumps on the north side of the ramp, east side of the FBO, left downwind for runway 1-0, two thousand six hundred feet, left traffic, full stop for runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is left downwind turning base for runway 1-0, descending through two thousand four hundred feet, full stop, runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is base turning left final for runway 1-0, about a 3-mile final, maybe 2, runway 1-0, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is on short final for runway 1-0, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is down on runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is slowing through 40 knots, runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is turning around, going to back taxi runway 1-0 / 2-8, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is back taxiing runway 1-0 / 2-8, taxiing to the fuel pumps on the east side of the FBO, north side of the ramp, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is clear of runway 1-0 / 2-8, taxiing to the fuel pumps on the east side of the FBO, north side of the ramp, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is at the fuel pump next to the FBO, shutting down, Podunk." This talkative fellow was the only plane in motion at an airport 100 miles away that shares our CTAF frequency, and I'm not sure he ever let off the mic once from 10 miles out until he shut off the avionics master. I listened to him talk to himself from before I started my descent until shortly before I had to turn on the runway lights, thankful that he didn't go around and keep the airwaves busy for another 10 minutes and thereby cause me to go around over a dark runway.​

So don't worry. You are probably already doing better than all of those guys.
 
iamtheari said:
Two tips:

1. Buy Sporty's VFR Communications DVD. It's worth every penny for a student pilot and it covers uncontrolled airports as well as Class B, C, and D airports.

2. At an uncontrolled airport, there is almost no such thing as the wrong thing to say. The key is to maintain situational awareness of where others are, primarily with your eyes, and to use the radio to supplement both your own situational awareness and that of others in the area. There are some best practices to follow, and you'll develop habits as you go so it is important to practice good habits. But don't ever be paralyzed by wanting to get it right.

For example, I'd rather hear you say "Podunk, we're a Cessna ten miles to the east landing at Podunk" and then call again to say "Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is on left downwind for runway 1-0, Podunk" when you're in the traffic pattern than any of the following (only one of which contains a slight exaggeration of something I've actually heard on the radio):

Perfectly communicate "Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is 1-0 miles east, planning left downwind runway 1-0, Podunk" and then not say anything else until you clear the runway.

"Podunk area unicom, any traffic in the area please advise." This conveys nothing at all other than that you haven't been listening to the radio and don't plan to look with your eyes.

"Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is clear of the active." There's no such thing as "the active" at an uncontrolled airport, so this conveys no information at all.

"Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is over the final approach fix for runway 1-0, Podunk." This conveys the right information but only to pilots familiar with the instrument approaches for runway 10 at Podunk, which is likely to be about one in five pilots.

"Podunk...uh...." Minutes pass. "Podunk area traffic, this is...uh..." More time passes. "Podunk area, we're crossing midfield, and ... hold on....uh..." More time passes. "...ixture, prop, seatbelt. Podunk, Cessna, uh..." Moments later. "Podunk traffic, Cessna 3-2-bravo is clear of the active."

"Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is ten miles east, four thousand three hundred twenty feet, planning to cross midfield and then enter left downwind for runway 1-0, landing, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is six miles east, four thousand one hundred five feet, planning to cross midfield and ... wait, no, we won't need to cross the field to get on left downwind. So we're going to just enter a left downwind for runway 1-0. Landing at Podunk, full stop. Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is four miles east, three thousand feet, planning left downwind for runway 1-0, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is entering left downwind for runway 1-0, two thousand eight hundred feet, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna november-5-4-2-3-bravo is passing midfield over the fuel pumps on the north side of the ramp, east side of the FBO, left downwind for runway 1-0, two thousand six hundred feet, left traffic, full stop for runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is left downwind turning base for runway 1-0, descending through two thousand four hundred feet, full stop, runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is base turning left final for runway 1-0, about a 3-mile final, maybe 2, runway 1-0, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is on short final for runway 1-0, full stop, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is down on runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is slowing through 40 knots, runway 1-0, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is turning around, going to back taxi runway 1-0 / 2-8, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is back taxiing runway 1-0 / 2-8, taxiing to the fuel pumps on the east side of the FBO, north side of the ramp, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is clear of runway 1-0 / 2-8, taxiing to the fuel pumps on the east side of the FBO, north side of the ramp, Podunk. Podunk traffic, Cessna 5-4-2-3-bravo is at the fuel pump next to the FBO, shutting down, Podunk." This talkative fellow was the only plane in motion at an airport 100 miles away that shares our CTAF frequency, and I'm not sure he ever let off the mic once from 10 miles out until he shut off the avionics master. I listened to him talk to himself from before I started my descent until shortly before I had to turn on the runway lights, thankful that he didn't go around and keep the airwaves busy for another 10 minutes and thereby cause me to go around over a dark runway.​

So don't worry. You are probably already doing better than all of those guys.
Click to expand...

:eek: holy smokes!
 
Timbeck2 said:
I'd really like to fly a Bugsmasher into Podunk. Are they expensive to maintain?
Click to expand...

They aren’t too bad if you can do owner assisted annuals. Just make sure you have a mechanic that is nearby overseeing all your work.

You also want to make sure you get a “k” model (or newer) since they have the parachute and AOA. The older ones are just death traps.
 
skier said:
They aren’t too bad if you can do owner assisted annuals. Just make sure you have a mechanic that is nearby overseeing all your work.

You also want to make sure you get a “k” model (or newer) since they have the parachute and AOA. The older ones are just death traps.
Click to expand...
Good luck finding a good mechanic in Podunk!
 
Timbeck2 said:
Is Johnny Mechanic still in Podunk working on bugsmashers? That guy could drink!
Click to expand...

I got ahold of him by phone yesterday when I was doing the work on my annual. He was two sheets to the wind, but suggested I pull the red handle. Preliminarily it seems to have fixed the issue with my rudder. I can now taxi in a straight line without full left rudder deflection. I’m going to take bugsmasher 1234 for a quick trip around the pattern tomorrow morning just to make sure the problem is fixed.

Johnny said he’d sign off on my annual tonight so I can fly tomorrow and then if anything needs fixing he’d sign off another annual after those repairs are finished. Great guy. Can’t recommend him highly enough.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It always amazes me when a student pilot posts on here first rather than asking their CFI. Yes, it’s ok to seek out other opinions and I’d encourage everyone to do so but your CFI should be your number one and first resource for these sort of questions.
Click to expand...
It amazes me when people get amazed by a student pilot asking questions on a pilot forum. Obviously he knows he can ask his CFI, maybe his CFI is asleep.
 
He may have asked his instructor,and got an answer he didn’t like. Of course asking on this forum,he will certainly learn humility.
 
Yes, sure, perhaps asking such a question on this forum was a bit premature, as the question posted directly to my CFI would have yielded a quick and accurate answer. Sorry.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It always amazes me when a student pilot posts on here first rather than asking their CFI. Yes, it’s ok to seek out other opinions and I’d encourage everyone to do so but your CFI should be your number one and first resource for these sort of questions.
Click to expand...

Sometimes things occur to someone after their last lesson and before the next.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Don’t worry about asking..this is what online communities are for. Some people just don’t want to chit chat with others and would rather just say google it.
 
What's the use of a forum if you can't ask a question? Lots of CFI's here, lots of mechanics, lots of pilots. There was a time when I didn't know what my CFI could indorse me to do either. Sometimes one has to know the questions to ask before they ask them.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
Yes, sure, perhaps asking such a question on this forum was a bit premature, as the question posted directly to my CFI would have yielded a quick and accurate answer. Sorry.
Click to expand...

Yes, premature is in my opinion an apt description. I didn’t write that you shouldn’t seek other opinions by posting here, just that you should seek out the answer from your CFI first. If his reply doesn’t make sense to you or you feel he is in error, then it’s okay to seek out opinions from SGOTI. Of course, the regulations and published guidance are also available as an earlier step in the process.

By you referring to your initial post as premature, I’d say that you understood the meaning of my initial reply. By reading other replies, it seems evident that others did not. That shows that you have an understanding of the process that some folks lack. You will do well. Good luck.
 
Ravioli said:
You normally fly from a TOWERED airport and you're worried about communications at a NON-TOWERED airport?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's too odd. I did my PPL training at a relatively sleepy class delta with friendly controllers and working the radio there was pretty easy from day 1. It's also reassuring as a student to have them telling you exactly what to do as far as pattern entry and exit goes.

Going into a less structured environment where it's all on you as the PIC without professional controllers watching your back can be intimidating until you get into the swing of things.
 
TortoiseEnthusiast said:
I'm not sure that's too odd. I did my PPL training at a relatively sleepy class delta with friendly controllers and working the radio there was pretty easy from day 1. It's also reassuring as a student to have them telling you exactly what to do as far as pattern entry and exit goes.

Going into a less structured environment where it's all on you as the PIC without professional controllers watching your back can be intimidating until you get into the swing of things.
Click to expand...

What you say is in line with what my CFI told me before our first flight to a non-towered airport. He said that some students have more trouble communicating at non-towered airports than towered, which I thought was odd. At that time I figured the towered is more stressful, because you are talking to more authoritative people, and thus there’s more stress to “get it right”. However, even though the CTAF communication is just with other pilots, you end up talking a lot more, as you announce every location you’re at, and your intentions. And, you need to not only say the right things at the right time, but need to be able to picture what’s going on...in a sense have a mental image of all that’s happening. Granted, you need that too at the tower, but they tell you exactly what to do and where to go, and you are then just following instructions.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
At that time I figured the towered is more stressful, because you are talking to more authoritative people, and thus there’s more stress to “get it right”.
Click to expand...

Who is more authoritative than the PIC? I know as student I thought the controllers know everything, but now I see their rookie mistakes [lots of new peeps at our local airports] and "clarify" things with them. On occasion there is the quick apology from them afterwards to which I always say "we're all learning here."

Jeff Szlauko said:
However, even though the CTAF communication is just with other pilots, you end up talking a lot more, as you announce every location you’re at, and your intentions. And, you need to not only say the right things at the right time, but need to be able to picture what’s going on...in a sense have a mental image of all that’s happening. Granted, you need that too at the tower, but they tell you exactly what to do and where to go, and you are then just following instructions.
Click to expand...

I hope you're never "just following instructions." And eventually you won't be hitting the PTT anywhere near as often as you do with a CFI beside you.

My OPINION is that the non-towered airports are easier on the Comm side since nobody is "required" to talk. There is a lot more effort on the See and Avoid part though.
 
Jeff Szlauko said:
What you say is in line with what my CFI told me before our first flight to a non-towered airport. He said that some students have more trouble communicating at non-towered airports than towered, which I thought was odd. At that time I figured the towered is more stressful, because you are talking to more authoritative people, and thus there’s more stress to “get it right”. However, even though the CTAF communication is just with other pilots, you end up talking a lot more, as you announce every location you’re at, and your intentions. And, you need to not only say the right things at the right time, but need to be able to picture what’s going on...in a sense have a mental image of all that’s happening. Granted, you need that too at the tower, but they tell you exactly what to do and where to go, and you are then just following instructions.
Click to expand...

You hit it Jeff! As with anything new, it just takes practice. There won't be as much traffic, if any, at most uncontrolled airports vs controlled, but as you mentioned, it's on you at uncontrolled airports to probably do more to prevent aluminum showers.
 
Last edited:
Ravioli said:
My OPINION is that the non-towered airports are easier on the Comm side since nobody is "required" to talk. There is a lot more effort on the See and Avoid part though.
Click to expand...

It all comes down to the environment you're accustomed to. If you're training out of a towered field and all you've ever known is communicating with that tower, going to an uncontrolled field and broadcasting out into the CTAF void and getting no response (or worse, a whole bunch of responses at the same time, many using nonstandard phraseology) is going to be weird and certainly won't do anything positive for you as far as staying ahead of the plane goes.

I imagine it's a similar feeling for a student from an uncontrolled field having to contact ATC for the first time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top