Can Mooney and Cirrus save General Aviation?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by FloridaPilot, Apr 9, 2017.

  1. genna

    genna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Messages:
    834
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ТУ-104
    ^^ This!. Although my take on that is slightly different. I don't think it can be made romantic again. For all but a few die hearts. That was lost in the second half of 20th century along with the excitement of it being something new for most people. 99%(not a real number) of population(and most would-be pilots) view it as just form of transportation or job. However, what's worse is how their spouses look at it. Not an exciting thing, but a questionable(and expensive) form of going [some] places that is usually not worth it. To most significant others a 100K car(such as BMW7) is far more impressive than even 1mm SR22

    Aviation(not just GA) is old news, i'm afraid
     
    FormerHangie, Tantalum and MetalCloud like this.
  2. RudyP

    RudyP Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    706
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RudyP
    I can't share any details but yes they are making money. They did have a very rough period when they weren't making enough on sales of actual planes (SR2X) to fund their SF50 development program and they needed outside capital - they mothballed SF50 development until they secured it. I can't really tell you more than that - partly because my info is second hand and not very specific but I do think it is trustable.
     
    MetalCloud likes this.
  3. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    7,668
    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    I hope the new plane is a hit and they don't service bulletin it to death. That's a surefire way to **** of customers that just bought a pretty shiny new single engine jet. Nobody wants to be owners of an airplane that flies from repair station to repair station lol.
     
  4. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,823
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    Impossible to know for certain.

    Arcapita bought 58% of the company for $100 million in 2001, valuing the whole company at $172 million immediately after receiving certification of the SR20 and SR22.

    Arcapita announced it wished to sell its interest in late 2007. It took a while to find a buyer.
    CAIGA closed the purchase of the company in early 2011 for $210 million, only a 22% increase in enterprise value over that decade.

    Since then it has sold a much smaller volume of airplanes than it was previously, and it has incurred what are undoubtedly significant development and certification costs for the jet.

    Frankly, aviation seems a heavily regulated, brutally difficult business, whether building airplanes or running an airline.
     
    MetalCloud likes this.
  5. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    587
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    I've heard similar. Trying to bootstrap development of a jet CAN'T be easy. Even with selling hundreds of planes a year. As far as the company goes, I have no doubts about their strength, longevity, and ability to deliver well into the future.
     
  6. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,823
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    "Making money" has many definitions in the minds of outside observers of a company. Positive cash flow can be seen as "making money".

    But the only measure that really counts is if the enterprise returns to its shareholders more than its cost of capital. The Klapmeier brothers and their original backers might have made back more than their cost of capital when they sold controlling interest to Arcapita. Arcapita could not possibly have made their cost of capital unless there were healthy dividend distributions during their ownership. And in the current circumstance the question is "What is the actual cost of capital for a Chinese state-owned company?" An argument can be made it is zero given the distortions we've seen in other economic sectors coming from Beijing.
     
    MetalCloud likes this.
  7. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    855
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    citizen5000
    Diamond sold 60% of their Canadian factory and their old designs (DA40 and DA62 and the Diamond Jet) to a Chinese company. Suddenly and unexpectedly Diamond came out with three new models based on the piston-single DA50 airframe (4, 5 and 7 seater). All using a French Diesel (not their Austro engines) with an option to use a Lycoming 375hp gas engine. They say they will get certified next year. No prices yet.

    If these planes make it to the USA and are priced right Cirrus will finally have a real competitor for the SRxx line. Mooney should go back to the M10J & M10T they just abandoned and see if they can make a new niche for them. The Acclaim Ultra just got buried.

    Diamond Launches Three High-Performance Singles http://www.flyingmag.com/diamond-launches-three-high-performance-singles
     
  8. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,823
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    A simple back-of-the-envelope calculation:

    300 airplanes per year at an average sale price of $750,000 per = $225 million of revenue.
    Assume a gross margin of 25% = $56 million
    Deduct G&A costs of 10% of revenue leaves EBITDA of $34 million/year (out of which they have to pay taxes and replenish their capital stock).

    Not difficult to see why there's no new certified airplanes for sale at $100,000 or $200,000. :)

    The decade long jet program received certification last Dec so Cirrus will be delivering units this year, and that should improve the EBITDA going forward.

    Also shows why, as long as they can sell a reasonable number of airplanes each year, there is value in the type certificates held by Cessna/Beechcraft and Piper. It's certain over the past decade Cessna and Piper had a higher ROCE than Cirrus. Textron/Cessna still produces a couple dozen Beech Bonanzas every year.

    Mooney is either going to up its volume sales and survive, or go the way of other type certificates for good airplanes that simply could not maintain sufficient market (Grumman, Commander, etc.).
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
    rpadula likes this.
  9. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,039
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    I was recently traveling for work, and although I like the window I'm tall so grab the aisle when I can. Anyway, no exaggeration, on the 757-200 I just sat on I saw maybe 5-6 open shades in the whole cabin. And this wasn't some weird red eye, middle of the day, like 2pm.. nor was it hot out. People don't realize that what they're doing on a plane is incredible. Especially flying trans con (like I do for work) there are some amazing views of the rockies, Utah, Grand Canyon, etc. Maybe most people are scared?

    I've tried to keep aviation interesting for my family by keeping up the "private" aspect of it (IE, "look we're fancy" (except not really)), and how much time we're saving over driving. My wife hates commercial aviation so being able to travel in 1-3 hours which would be 4-8 hrs by car without having to deal with commercial air travel is a big plus. And for these trips that are 4 hrs by GA are probably actually faster than commercial if you consider door to door travel time. But at face value, yes most spouses I agree would have a hard time justifying the cost of a plane
     
  10. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    587
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    Right ON. I do the same. And they get it too. Had a situation come up and had to pick something up in southern CA... flew there, grabbed it, flew back in less time than it would have been to drive one way. And even that was door to door for both. What we do and what we offer to friends or family or even ourselves is magic and free (not in the monetary sense).

    My kids like my plane more than commercial travel. Even for an overnighter to vegas or something. "We can bring whatever shampoo we want and don't have to wait in that line while you take your shoes off. And your seats are more comfortable. And it's more fun."
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  11. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,799
    Location:
    KBAZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Good thing I'm not a woman then. What an emasculated view of life that is. To put it succinctly: who the eff made them queeny?

    Not all women are averse to their men having interests beyond servicing hypergamy, aka the purported "house+cars+vacation" attention span of the American suburban woman.

    My wife likes to bake cupcakes and what not, also likes to plant gardeny s---t in the backyard. Spends a pretty penny buying equipment and tools that spend more time collecting dust and cluttering up our already small living space than anything else; nevermind the backyard looks like the g-d golf course from caddyshack at this point. I still support her pursuit of these things. But you're not gonna see me sh%t all over her sensibilities just because I don't find them interesting. A woman who does that to a man is a piece of s---t. Aviation's got jack to do with that.

    For the record, my wife supports my airplane ownership. She values and appreciates the convenience it provides us from that of driving, or the airline hassle in our family trips. Her newest fascination is the cherokee six. Cannot get over how overkill it is, especially for my 2+1 mission set. But that cabin, cannot get her eyes off it. Told her it was slower than the arrow for the gas. She looked disappointed. Then she looked up and asked me if the wheels folded to make it go like the arrow. I told her yes, slightly faster than actually, it's called a lance. She said, ok we should buy that kind. :rolleyes::D

    Hate the game, not the playa' homey. Divorced and remarried here, so I speak from first hand experience. You don't need a better hobby; you just need a non-sh***y human being for a wife. That ain't GA's fault.
     
  12. gsengle

    gsengle Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,756
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gsengle
    I suppose it depends on whether you have young kids. Your spouse has more of a leg to stand on re: motorcycles and little airplanes in that case. Just the way it is. Again, why Cirrus is in large part so successful, it lets the spouse sign off...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    StevieTimes and Tantalum like this.
  13. drotto

    drotto Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,092
    Location:
    NJ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    drotto
    I have been trying to sell the idea of GA to expand where we can go over a short period. She is fully on board with me getting my IFR, realizing it will make me safer, and expand the usefulness of the plane to where I should be able to complete the flight 90% or more ( my personal margins are still very conservative). We would like to use the plane so having a primary house and a vacation house that would normally be a 6 hr drive much more reasonable.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  14. genna

    genna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Messages:
    834
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ТУ-104

    If your wife(or husband.. happens quite often too) doesn't want to fly then she doesn't fly. Your plane ownership just became a hobby rather than a useful tool.... A hobby that you are constantly having a friction about because you want to include the person you love in your passion and they flatly refuse or worse try to make it harder for you. Now you are faced with a plane or a wife and kids dilemma. Some planes win this fight.. most don't.

    Now.. if you are being piloted in a private jet... it's all a different game.

    My wife does not like flying. Even commercial.. She does not prevent me from doing it myself, however. While i can talk her into going with me on occasion to some destinations, this seriously limits what i can do with a plane... And so i cannot buy one justifiably.
     
  15. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,823
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    Exact same situation here. The only time I can persuade my wife to fly is if there is a horse to see at the destination.

    But she also knows that if I didn't own a plane and fly I would be a lot more difficult person to live with. So she tries to encourage it as best she can.
     
    ircphoenix, genna and MetalCloud like this.
  16. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,935
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Romeo
    That's ultimately what put the nail in the coffin to make me sell my plane. Wife did not like flying. And it gets extremely boring going to the same 5-6 places by yourself over and over again.

    I keep dreaming about buying another plane, maybe a 2 seater, but then keep coming back to the fact that it's probably JUST going to be me in the plane and what in the heck am I actually going to do?
     
    StevieTimes and genna like this.
  17. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,978
    Location:
    Roswell, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FormerHangie
    Head over to Wallaby Ranch in Davenport and take an aerotow lesson. It might be what you've been looking for.
     
  18. Cajun_Flyer

    Cajun_Flyer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,712
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cajun Flyer
    Just as an FYI, hindsight2020 - not all "spouses" are women.

    My husband has zero interest in flying or ever flying with me. It sucks to not have anyone to go up with, but I have fun with it anyway. I'm definitely a much happier person after a flight, which I think that's pretty much the only reason he's supportive of my passion/addiction.
     
    deonb, mcdewey, StevieTimes and 2 others like this.
  19. genna

    genna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Messages:
    834
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ТУ-104

    Funny you should say this. I'm getting checked out on a Cirrus in a (probably futile) attempt to find a plane she may be more likely to fly. Not a CAPS thing... Just a heavier, faster plane with a nice cabin. Hoping for a smoother ride.

    My wife does not think twice about getting on the back of my motorcycle. Planes... just not a pleasant experience for her. Mostly turbulence reasons.
     
  20. Don

    Don Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    13
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Don
    Greetings,

    I've flown most of the models of aircraft mentioned in this thread, and many others, and've liked all of them. That said, I tool around in a C-172 that is thirty-nine years old, albeit nice in every way, because I can afford it and not more. Cherokees and Skyhawks didn't used to be trainers. Now that the C-150/152 fleet has been pretty badly beat up and due to the obesity epidemic, somehow these same Cherokees and Skyhawks are now trainers, and that is despite their perhaps too-benign flying habits. Anyway, even a 100-110 kt airplane that carries 3 FAA-approved souls can be highly useful. For example, I regularly fly from the SF Bay Area to Tucson and do it door-to-door faster than the commercial boys (there are no non-stops between the Bay Area and Tucson, and of course to many other destinations as well). My point is that even a "trainer" can be a wonderful alternative to driving or the airlines, and I use mine to go everywhere west of Denver.

    I too want all the manufacturers to do well. They all seem locked into a low-volume, high-price business model. The results are:
    --while some aircraft are safer than others, all have per-mile fatality rates several times higher than driving. I agree that the news media is guilty of sensationalist reporting but, excepting parachutes, the old, certified designs have safety features locked into the 1960s. Our overall record as pilots is equally abysmal. We need:
    (1) collapsable yokes or side-mounted sticks (like the Cirrus),
    (2) benign stall/spin characteristics (like the C-172),
    (3) crumple zones (none, as far as I know),
    (4) air bags and four-point harnesses (like, for harnesses, the Decathlon),
    (5) gas tanks and fuel lines better protected during crashes (like w/the Diamond Star),
    (6) modern dual electronic ignitions (nobody!),
    (7) 406 Mhz ELTs (like all new certified aircraft),
    (8) airframe parachutes (like the Cirrus line), etc.
    No manufacturer has done all of these. In fact, there is a tradeoff between benign stall/spin characteristics and top speed, and somehow everyone is focused on speed. Meanwhile, enabled by extremely high volume, auto makers have upgraded their cars to include:
    (1) tubeless radial tires,
    (2) electronic ignition and variable electronic engine timing,
    (3) fuel injection is totally standard (can one even buy a carbureted car anymore),
    (4) myriad crash protection safety features,
    (5) far longer lasting interiors,
    (6) engines that will typically run >200K miles w/only modest maintenance,
    (7) and much more, and for about the same inflation adjusted pricing as in 1971.

    So you see, our airframe manufacturers never had the volume to climb out of the 1960s and, as others have intimated, light GA has become an anachronism, a curiosity and noisy hobby for the rich, as viewed by the public. Oh, and locking up our airports like prisons hasn't helped, either. Let's see:
    --cost to get a PPL: $10K
    --cost for an instrument rating: $8K
    --cost per hour for a C-172 rental (low end): $110/hr "wet"
    --cost to purchase a decent, low-performance used "4-seater": ~$60K
    --cost to fix up said four-seater after purchase: ~$10K.
    I realize others' experiences may vary.

    However, the manufacturers are caught in a low-volume trap. They must:
    --cover the costs of certification (legacy models have already done this, hooray!),
    --spread the costs of low-volume manufacture and product liability over few sales,
    --locate the few (percentage-wise) in the whole population capable of and willing to buy a new airplane,
    --and convince said potential buyers to part with multi-100s of AMUs.

    That said, I believe Cessna and Piper could begin to increase their sales volumes for C-172s and PA-28/160-180s by trying lower prices to increase sales volumes while, hopefully, maybe cleaning up some of the drag inherent to the old designs (wing/window or fuselage, landing gear, for example) and adding about 10 kt to the aircraft. I would also like to see Cessna restart production of the C-152 to help make training more accessible. I realize these suggestions really only help at the margin but they would be steps in the right direction.

    Finally, GA has been moving steadily upscale since after WWII. The Champs and J-3s of yore were replaced by C-172s and PA-28s, and now Cirrus and Diamond are the entry point for many. We now see turboprop singles and biz-jets proliferating as our GA regional airports morph into an alternative transportation network for the truly rich. The result: high FBO ramp fees and avgas prices at regional airports to discourage us old timers. Oh well (sigh).

    Best,

    Don
     
    mcdewey and StevieTimes like this.
  21. drotto

    drotto Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,092
    Location:
    NJ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    drotto
    If you want to talk best safety record over the last decade or so, I think that crown remains Diamonds. So we should be looking at what they have done right.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  22. Don

    Don Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    13
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Don
    Cheers,

    No question about it, the Diamond is the safest and, I feel, the best low-power (<200 hp) "4-seat" airplane on the market. Used prices for this aircraft reflect this. Diamond did it right in other ways too: they used perhaps the most reliable piston engine ever made, added a constant-speed prop, and provided exhaust headers for efficiency. Earlier models do not have glass, which adds weight and maintenance cost in return for utility as an airline trainer.

    But getting back to Cirrii & Mooneys for the moment....

    Mooney makes a fine airplane but it has always appealed to a niche market: the solo pilot or maybe couple who wants speed uber alles. Weaknesses include back seat room, for some models useful load, and not-so-great prop clearance for unimproved fields. There will always be a market for these wonderful airplanes but they are not for the majority of buyers. Like any complex airplane, they will also be somewhat more expensive to maintain and insure relative to an equivalent fixed-gear, fixed prop airplane.

    Any aircraft is the product of a number of design trades. Cirrus traded benign stall/spin characteristics and, evidently, higher certification costs for speed. The result is a relatively high wing-loaded airframe that is not certified for spins at all. The Cirrus safety record has not been good relative especially to Diamond; however, it is slowly improving. I give Cirrus lots of credit for implementing the parachute (although the repack cost on the earlier models seems exorbitant) and working hard to educate their pilot population. Nevertheless, both Cirrus models maintenance-wise are complex aircraft sans retractable gear. They will always be expensive both to purchase and to maintain long-term. For this reason, I don't believe Cirrus will regenerate light GA with it's current models. I'd love to see Cirrus mass-produce a Diamond-like, relatively inexpensive (<$200K) two-seat trainer, though.

    I am actually puzzled by Diamond, who DOES make a state-of-the-art "4-seat" single. Why have they made the trade of high cost vs high volume so in favor of the former? I believe a Diamond 4-seater equipped with the newly FAA-approved non-STC'd autopilot and glass display would be lighter and significantly cheaper than the current offering. What we need are aircraft executives with vision--like Henry Ford--who will bet on low price and volume instead of the current crop, who seem to want to spend every dollar they earn on piston singles to develop the next biz-jet.

    Don
     
    Glen R and RudyP like this.
  23. asicer

    asicer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,321
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    Fly higher. Turbulence goes down as AGL goes up.
     
  24. genna

    genna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Messages:
    834
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ТУ-104
    Have to come down eventually
     
  25. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,039
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    In other news... Mooney's CEO just stepped down: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/april/24/mooney-ceo-out
    ^this poor company. Really hope they make it somehow
    ..also, seems like the M10 is apparently back on the line?

    *p.s. - just noticed the ad in the background "when you're ready for the training wheels to come off" - as much as I like the idea of retractable gear that seems like an odd way to get buyers to come to your product by belittling what they currently fly (assuming they're going after Cirrus buyers...). Not a marketing guy but can't see many Cirrus owners seeing that and switching over. A 172 guy flying renters with a lot of money ready to buy a plane, sure... but not somehow who already spent half a mil on a fixed gear
    upload_2017-4-25_10-37-16.png
     
  26. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    587
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    Yup. I'd say most cirrus owners don't care about that aspect. And yeah, belittling other owners isn't the best way to encourage excitement about a new aircraft (though I don't think that's their intent. I think it's more towards the 182 renters).

    Sucks for mooney about the CEO leaving. They're going to have a hard time selling new planes given their instability as a company, which is unfortunate because there are people who do like their planes.

    Meanwhile Cirrus has a 200+ plane backlog and the support they give their pilots is remarkable, even if you're not the one who bought it new. Case in point... I had a bad mag and emailed Cirrus directly because I flat out didn't know what to do about it since I didn't have a authorized service center on the field. Yada yada yada, they overnighted a new one and found someone to install it. Pretty remarkable.
     
  27. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    4,209
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    Once I bought a Cirrus I couldn't keep the women out.
     
  28. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,864
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dera
    Is this when he designed the interior of a Mooney? :D
     
  29. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,220
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FloridaStudentPilot
    Yep, I believe I was the only person who saw the writing on the wall. Before he resigned I noticed that he updated his LinkedIn page....can only mean one thing.
     
  30. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,220
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FloridaStudentPilot
    What if Cirrus came out with an inexpensive GA aircraft with a chute, (Something like 50k-100K) The same comfortable interior and had some of the features the SR20 and 22 had would you buy one?. No one would be able to catch them.
     
  31. EppyGA

    EppyGA Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    10,181
    Location:
    Hoschton, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Let's Fly
  32. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,978
    Location:
    Roswell, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FormerHangie
    Considering that a bare bones old tech VFR LSA such as an Aerotrek is $90,000, why would you think this is possible?

    I could see someone building an 0-360 powered four seater for around $250,000, especially if there is a simplified certification process available, but I can't see anyone being able to go lower than that.
     
  33. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    855
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    citizen5000
    That plane exists. It's called the Aerotrek A220. But it's tube and fabric with a Rotax 912iS, Dynon panel and SLSA.
     
  34. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,713
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    We have plenty of these already, they are called "used".
     
    gsengle likes this.
  35. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,220
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FloridaStudentPilot
    If Cirrus could successfully sell by volume and found a way to mass produce them it can surely be done.

    And how many average pilots know that they exist? Not many people know that the A220 exists. Everyone knows that the Cirrus brand exists....Why do you think that is? Marketing. I don't think I would ever buy a Cirrus but the marketing is there, better than anyone out there!

    Why would I buy used if I could buy new?
     
  36. gsengle

    gsengle Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,756
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gsengle
    Well personally I would say that if you're a pilot you should be tech literate enough to use google. I know they exist. They are cool and would be considered if I ever bought a second plane....

    And buying used is always smart financially. Whether cars or planes....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  37. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,713
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    A. There is no way they can build an airplane for less than 100k.
    Engine and avionics alone would be more than 100K.
    B. Liability exposure would be more.
    C. Parachute is another 25K.

    And you still could buy a faster, better plane on the used market.
     
  38. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,039
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    That's true for just about everything... even more so I would say with planes.. not just the financial aspect of it but also because I like knowing that all the kinks have been ironed out. If I'm shopping for a boat it's nice to know the boat has already done a circumnavigation, or at least some longer sailing journeys, in that sense it has earned its keep. Same with planes, buying new I'm sure has some Baroque decadence to it, but frankly I'd like to know that the plane I'm buying has at least a few hundred hours on it and that it has carried its previous owner around safely. This becomes especially true if there is any kind of damage history to it. Sure if I had a million I'd like to buy a custom spec new plane, but it's not something I pine over because I really don't see buying new as having many actual benefits to it

    Marketing is a huge element of it.. but in this case there is more to it I think. The previous poster, @FloridaPilot, was referencing a Cirrus version of a light inexpensive plane. Unfortunately there is nothing "Cirrusy" about the Aerotrek. I think that's what people like about the Cirrus is that it doesn't have the trainer feel to it. Even the SR20 which many deride for its climb performance, etc., is leaps and bounds more comfortable to travel in than a 172. People I've brought in or showed the SR20 are always impressed with its sleek appearance and their idea of luxury based on car brands. In fact, people have said to me "wow, this feels so much safer than that other plane we flew" <- they'll say that when they first get in before I even tell them about the chute, etc. And they'll say that even if the prior plane was a near brand spanking new Archer or Warrior

    I know pilot purists like a proper panel and a proper plane... and unfortunately the Cirrus planes don't really check those boxes for many folks, as the passionate threads on here would lay evidence to. BUT, we must admit that they're a serious game changer and I think as we've all agreed in the past are the only ones who've kept up and stayed modern with the GA market, and didn't just sell out to the universities. Hopefully Mooney can keep its head above water and we'll see Panthera becoming a reality
     
  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,039
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    ...and didn't just slap a G1000 into a 60 year old design :)
     
  40. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,620
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    coloradobluesky
    How many USED planes are sold per year?