Can Mooney and Cirrus save General Aviation?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by FloridaPilot, Apr 9, 2017.

  1. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,167
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    Just a couple of years ago Cirrus did a tour through my region with one of their airplanes. They used the civil aircraft register to mail out RRSP invitations to owner/pilots.
     
    FloridaPilot likes this.
  2. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,202
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FloridaStudentPilot
    You are spot on,

    They are doing it right. Think of it this way, How many people and businesses out there can make a better burger than McDonalds? I can think of 5 off the top of my head easily. Why is McDonalds more successful? Because of their marketing and business systems. Mooney doesn't need to copy Cirrus airplanes, there airplanes are nice enough they need to revamp their marketing, get dedicated sales people, reward them well based on performance, (Like someone mentioned previously) focus on what they do best. Make fast efficient aircraft.
     
  3. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    855
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    citizen5000
    Mooney is old news. Cirrus clearly cannot be matched by them. Take a look at the Innovator. They are bringing two to Oshkosh (or at least trying to get them ready for the event). If these guys get real they will be a leader with a completely fresh and new design. http://commutercraft.com/innovator-aircraft
     
  4. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,167
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    Here we go again...:rolleyes:
     
    gsengle likes this.
  5. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    855
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    citizen5000
    Cessna TTx sold 31 planes in 2016. Mooney sold 7.
     
  6. gsengle

    gsengle Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,727
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gsengle
    Broken record, fanboy, blah blah blah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. dennyleeb

    dennyleeb Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    731
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    7DeltaBravo
    I see your always bashing cirrus. What do you own/fly?

    Although it might be a broken record it seems like it bothers your ego that cirrus out performs all the others in the marketplace. I feel like they out perform others in air as well.
     
    Cajun_Flyer and jordane93 like this.
  8. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    11,304
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    weilke
    They also used to mine the state licensing databasess for targeted marketing. A friend of mine is a surgeon. Knows nothing about airplanes but he does know that if he buys one, it is going to be a Cirrus.
     
  9. gsengle

    gsengle Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,727
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gsengle
    I'm not bashing anyone. I make comments good and bad on every airframe. Cirrus deserves some criticism, and since no one ever seems willing to acknowledge those criticisms, they get called fanboys. No airplane is perfect except evidently Cirrus.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. jkgoblue

    jkgoblue Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    261
    Location:
    Sands Point, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John K.
    I think the next step for Cirrus will be to pressurize the SR22. Nor sure it they can do it for the -22 but a pressurized single would be logical. The guys at Evolution aircraft say they get many Cirrus owners coming over to them because the wife doesn't want to wear cannulas.
     
    deonb and FloridaPilot like this.
  11. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    565
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    I'd be all over this.
     
  12. Jeff Cutler

    Jeff Cutler Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    137
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jeff
    Mooney came out with a pressurized version in the 60's, M22... Looked kinda boxy, but they were ahead of their time back then.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooney_M22_Mustang
     
  13. FloridaPilot

    FloridaPilot Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,202
    Location:
    Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FloridaStudentPilot
    Now if starting was 50-60K they might be onto something!

    Mooney can catch those numbers it's not much of a stretch. Even if you like just one brand you should want other manufacturers to do well because it generates competition. When companies compete for your business it's more favorable to the buyer. Prices will be more reasonable.


    Great Idea, Cirrus should also make a Turbo Prop as well, (Similar to a TBM) so they can have all three classes of airplane. Most past Cirrus buyers upgrade to TBM's that is why they advertise in the Cirrus Magazine.
     
  14. citizen5000

    citizen5000 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    855
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    citizen5000
    There will be no pressurized SR22. Cirrus's pressurized plane is the SF50 VLJ. If you want a pressurized piston single you have to go to the Piper M350 for $1.2m (213kt cruise) or the Evolution Lycoming for $1m (240kt cruise).

    Before the SF50 the Cirrus SR22T owners wanting an upgrade went to the Eclipse SE refurb twin-jet. There are two of these guys a few hangars down from me on the field.
     
    MetalCloud likes this.
  15. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    3,793
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    Which sounds exactly like how folks describe C-182s. "It doesn't do anything the best but it does almost everything pretty well."

    And I've flown a Cirrus. And it is a sweet airplane and would make a very nice traveling bird. And the fit and finish is superb. But dang, so much money!

    John
     
  16. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    3,793
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    Well, it seats two, not four. And (I assume the pictures are of a prototype) the fit and finish have a LONG way to go. And this is purely subjective, but it's ugly.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  17. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,935
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Romeo
    C'mon now..we all know Cirrus planes are beyond reproach. I mean any objection can always be overridden with "but I have a chute"...:)
     
  18. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,633
    Location:
    de facto Mejico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    SR-22 is already too heavy. Making a pressurized plastic bathtub? Oh boy, piggie piggie. 300 won't be enough. The perf number would be atrocious to marketing, and they will do the boneheaded thing of upping the legal certified continuous power to compensate, and here comes the double digit engine failures a la Malibu. I don't think it is in their economic interest to attempt to pressurize a consumer grade plastic airplane.
     
  19. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    1,744
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    I'm always happy to see there are people out there looking to get a new GA plane on the market, so I'd be happy to see just about anybody (non LSA) at this point find success. But I agree, it's not an attractive plane and I worry that the "canard" Iit's not a true canard?) design and pusher prop configuration doom this thing from the start. You need to push aesthetic design envelope just enough to stand out, but not so much that you're swimming upstream of the pack. Human nature is to feel like you're a unique individual, but not necessarily "different" from everyone else. Cirrus and Panthera I think get this spot on, their designs are well executed.. Mooney as well have that sleek low profile look... whether or not you like these planes most people will agree that Cirrus, Panthera, Mooney, are good looking birds
     
  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    1,744
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    Completely agree, and like someone else said the jet was their answer to this. I believe their jet will be immensely successful. But again, that shows good foresight on their part... and again the design is sharp. I haven't met anyone who thinks the Cirrus Jet is ugly. Even the crowd who gets upset with Cirrus will admit the jet is one hell of an attractive plane (at least those that I've met, but I'm sure someone will come along shortly to prove me wrong :))

    Piper again tried to follow suite and they experimented with a jet, but it basically looked like a DC-10 and a Meridian had a drunken tryst one night, that was never going to compete with Cirrus
     
    MetalCloud likes this.
  21. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    565
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    If they can stay afloat that long. Selling 7 planes a year, scrapping product lines, and time for building / certifying new designs is not a good combination for an aviation company. But I'd like for them to do well even though I have no interest in their planes. Competition is a good thing. It fosters innovation and keeps the guys at the top sharp and focused.

    Hell to the yeah. I'd buy a Turbo Prop over the Vision Jet. Hands down.
     
  22. dennyleeb

    dennyleeb Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    731
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    7DeltaBravo
    So again what is it that you own/fly?
     
  23. dennyleeb

    dennyleeb Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    731
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    7DeltaBravo
    My 22 has fiki, air conditioning, seats 5, and has 1200 lb useful load. What other aircraft comes close to that with those options? SEP? Doesn't seem to heavy from my pov
     
    MetalCloud and jordane93 like this.
  24. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    2,364
    Location:
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ircphoenix
    I have an irrational dislike of Cirrus.

    If I could afford a brand new airplane, I'd buy a Cirrus.

    That pretty much sums up the market.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
     
    tspear, RudyP and dennyleeb like this.
  25. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    12,914
    Location:
    North Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    6PC
    I see several people quoting the different manufacturers sales forgiven years. Where is this data published?
     
  26. dennyleeb

    dennyleeb Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    731
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    7DeltaBravo
    GAMA reports
     
  27. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,467
    Location:
    NorthEast Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc
    Al was a great designer/engineer. He just had no head for the business side of things. He also had some bad luck at certain times, like falling on a freshly waxed floor and being in a body cast at a really bad time.
     
  28. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    12,914
    Location:
    North Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    6PC
    Thank you
     
  29. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    12,914
    Location:
    North Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    6PC
    I mean. How does one get info from that site?
    I don't see any mention of aircraft sales for different mfg.
     
  30. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,167
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
  31. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,968
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    The problem with using the car logic is this: $60k worth of new car everyone sees and you get to drive it daily..VS...$60k for a plastic card in your wallet, plus the months of studying to get said card, a 50 year old plane sitting in a hangar that nobody sees in which it sits more than it flies. In todays world its all about impressing people and having expensive cars now that you can show off to everyone every day. And not to mention most people view general aviation planes as death traps. Buts thats a whole 'nother story...

    When people find out I'm a pilot they always ask about cost. Then when they find out I own my own plane they assume I'm rich. Then when they find out my plane is a '68 model they ask "isn't that too old to be still flying it?". Its really a lack of education about GA and priorities in ones life. GA can be as inexpensive or as EXPENSIVE as you make it. I mean if your the type who has to have new... well GA is expensive, but if you can handle a 50 year old plane that cost as much as a used car its fairly inexpensive. Take it notch lower and get an UL and your still flying for even less.
     
    FloridaPilot, CC268 and MetalCloud like this.
  32. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    1,744
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    Many NA people would be surprised to learn how old the average plane is, even in the commercial world, Delta has MD-88s that average almost 30 years old. It's not like a car... more like a house or a boat. The principles of physics and the laws of flight don't change, so if you keep something maintained it will fly a long time

    To that point that, Cirrus has some airframe limits on their birds, but I understand as the fleet ages and they have data those limits may be revised

    To "save" GA Piper and Cessna need to step up their game and start selling some nice not-necessarily-strictly-trainer-level planes in a reasonable price bracket. Like someone else said the RD costs should be recouped. A new 172 in the 1960s adjusted to today's dollars would be $70K to $100K... so why can't we have new planes today for that much or cheaper?
     
  33. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    1,744
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    We also need to make aviation romantic again. People lost interest in space and aviation, the world revolves around Facebook now. If it wasn't for SpaceX we really wouldn't have a space program (let's be honest)
     
    MetalCloud likes this.
  34. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    565
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    Can someone rationally and impartially explain why Mooney sold jack **** 2010-2014? Not picking on them specifically because I really don't care... but they are in the title of this thread and I'm just curious.
     
  35. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4,167
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    They shut down production when the 2008/09 financial crisis put them under yet again. It wasn't until late 2013 Mooney announced it had secured financial backing to restart production.

    Cirrus just about went under at that time too. At one point Cirrus was laying off staff and 16 months behind on rent for their production facility in Duluth.

    It was a tough time all around for GA. Even the venerable Beechcraft didn't survive after hanging on until 2012, when it finally declared bankruptcy, and later bought by Textron (Cessna's parent company) after it was restructured.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
    FloridaPilot likes this.
  36. MetalCloud

    MetalCloud Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    565
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MetalCloud
    Right on ok. Thank you. I saw that mentioned earlier but wasn't aware they completely shut down production.
     
  37. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    8,220
    Location:
    Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    There's also the question of whether or not Cirrus is now, or has ever actually made a profit. It's privately held, so such information is not readily available. Does anyone know?
     
  38. dennyleeb

    dennyleeb Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    731
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    7DeltaBravo
    I don't think they have made over 6000 aircraft over 2 decades for the love of it.
     
  39. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    8,220
    Location:
    Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Which does not answer the question: are they actually making money?

    I don't think the Klapmeiers would have sold out to Arcapita (Crescent Capital) if they had been making money.

    I doubt that Arcapita would have sold out to CAIGA if they had been making money, though that's possible.

    It really seems like no buyer other than the Chinese was willing to step up to buy Cirrus.

    I wish them well, but remain curious about their profitability. It will take a LOT of jets sold to ever recoup those development costs!
     
    gsengle likes this.
  40. dennyleeb

    dennyleeb Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    731
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    7DeltaBravo
    The Chinese tried to buy everything during and shortly after 2008. Not just Cirrus and other aircraft companies. Many business like aircraft are truly feast or famine.

    It will take a large number of jets to recoup their investment but I think they will. But that's just my opinion.