Can an instrument rated pilot take off in IMC without a clearance?

FORANE

FORANE

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FORANE
Say you are at an uncontrolled field - class G - that has ground fog 1/4 vis, 100 ceiling, and is clear above the low fog layer. Can an instrument rated pilot depart legally without obtaining a clearance?
 
so long as he stays in class G airspace.....yes.

Practically....that's far and few between. Most G airspace ends either 700 or 1200 feet AGL.

Looks like its been hashed before.....
 
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Yeah if you can maintain the minimum altitude for IFR while staying in class G (in cruise).
 
I wouldn't plan on staying in class G, but rather climbing through the thin fog layer and entering class E. Isn't there an associated concern for 1000 ft cloud separation above the layer before entering class E?
 
FORANE said:
I wouldn't plan on staying in class G, but rather climbing through the thin fog layer and entering class E. Isn't there an associated concern for 1000 ft cloud separation above the layer before entering class E?
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Well, now you would have an issue. You're going into class E, not on an IFR clearance and not maintaining VFR BCC. I take it not on an IFR flight plan either?
 
Velocity173 said:
Well, now you would have an issue. You're going into class E, not on an IFR clearance and not maintaining VFR BCC. I take it not on an IFR flight plan either?
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Well, no I wouldn't be on an IFR flight plan. I could be if need be as I am instrument rated and current. Just trying to sort out if it is feasible to do something like this legally in the setting of low fog only.
 
FORANE said:
Well, no I wouldn't be on an IFR flight plan. I could be if need be as I am instrument rated and current. Just trying to sort out if it is feasible to do something like this legally in the setting of low fog only.
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Regardless of legality, I'd worry about meeting head-on the guy/gal who tries the same trick out of a nearby field.
 
If you can get clear of the fog before entering Class E airspace you would be VFR but you would then need to meet the cloud clearance distances.
 
Go look up what happened to the guy in Russelville, AR who took off like that last year. He had 200ft and turned that Bo into a bonfire. Heard he was "an excellent and proficient commercial pilot" right up to the point he killed himself and three others. Instead of going to a funeral for a family member, they were now guest of honor at their own.
 
Unit74 said:
Go look up what happened to the guy in Russelville, AR who took off like that last year. He had 200ft and turned that Bo into a bonfire. Heard he was "an excellent and proficient commercial pilot" right up to the point he killed himself and three others. Instead of going to a funeral for a family member, they were now guest of honor at their own.
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Was it because of him doing that or because of something else? If he had received a clearance, what would have changed?
 
mkosmo said:
Was it because of him doing that or because of something else? If he had received a clearance, what would have changed?
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I suspect it was engine failure, but the report is not out. Point being, there was no margin at all. If he would have had some higher ceilings, he could have put it on the freeway. With no vis, he hit the ground and probably never saw it.
 
Years ago, 1991, a Beechjet carrying the Brunos grocery chain executives was making their annual holiday tour visiting stores in the region. They took off VFR from Rome Ga for Huntsville Al, hit a mountain 6 miles west of Rome killing all 9 souls onboard. I think the weather was MVFR (seems like it was 20 OVC) and people at the FBO said they were in a hurry, and took off. I think I remember that they were trying to contact ATL center for their clearance and trying to stay VFR. Very mountainous terrain in that part of Ga.
 
Was driving to the airport a few years back, clear skies the whole drive down. Get to the airport, which sits right next to a river and it's fogged in. Hear guys on the the radio overflying the field talking about how clear it is (there was some sort of fly-out going on) but they can't see the runways. Wait a while, and it's not burning off/lifting. Get on the runway, start the takeoff roll, and as soon as I rotate I'm blinded. The fog was probably only 50 feet deep at the most, and the sun was reflecting off the top of it. As we flew to our destination every lake and stream had fog on it, and the rest of the terrain was CAVU. I obviously didn't die. I would repeat the process in the future.
 
You did this under supposedly VFR when it was actually IFR? Taking off I mean.
 
mscard88 said:
They took off VFR from Rome Ga for Huntsville Al, hit a mountain 6 miles west of Rome killing all 9 souls onboard. Very
mountainous terrain in that part of Ga.
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They must have been doing some very low flying for a jet, those hills west of Richard Russell top out at maybe 1600msl.
 
Bill Jennings said:
They must have been doing some very low flying for a jet, those hills west of Richard Russell top out at maybe 1600msl.
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The plane flew into Lavender Mtn which is around the altitude you mention. Sounds like they were trying to stay out of the clouds and trying to get their clearance. Remember this was in '91, a bit different getting a clearance then, no cell phones for one thing. Killed the owner and his brother and the other seven people.
 
mscard88 said:
Killed the owner and his brother and the other seven people.
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Damn, at jet speeds by the time they realized they had a windscreen full of mountain, it was too late. For those unfamiliar with that area, although the mountains are very low, they have very steep faces, it would be like flying into a wall.
 
mscard88 said:
You did this under supposedly VFR when it was actually IFR? Taking off I mean.
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Class G airspace. There were no clouds. Just fog. Flight visibility was greater than 3 miles (greater than 50 actually) and no weather reporting at the field.
 
EdFred said:
Class G airspace. There were no clouds. Just fog. Flight visibility was greater than 3 miles (greater than 50 actually) and no weather reporting at the field.
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Just fog. Ok. :eek:
 
mscard88 said:
Years ago, 1991, a Beechjet carrying the Brunos grocery chain executives was making their annual holiday tour visiting stores in the region. They took off VFR from Rome Ga for Huntsville Al, hit a mountain 6 miles west of Rome killing all 9 souls onboard. I think the weather was MVFR (seems like it was 20 OVC) and people at the FBO said they were in a hurry, and took off. I think I remember that they were trying to contact ATL center for their clearance and trying to stay VFR. Very mountainous terrain in that part of Ga.
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Bill Jennings said:
They must have been doing some very low flying for a jet, those hills west of Richard Russell top out at maybe 1600msl.
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Bill Jennings said:
Damn, at jet speeds by the time they realized they had a windscreen full of mountain, it was too late. For those unfamiliar with that area, although the mountains are very low, they have very steep faces, it would be like flying into a wall.
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Ron used to give the Beechjet example every time we talked about picking up an IFR in the air. Sure, if you depart in a jet, mountainous terrain, 1000 ft ceiling, trying to get a clearance from the busiest ARTCCs in the country, that's a recipe for disaster. Not to mention a captain who had a history of cutting corners.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/directline/dl6_ems.htm
 
FORANE said:
Say you are at an uncontrolled field - class G - that has ground fog 1/4 vis, 100 ceiling, and is clear above the low fog layer. Can an instrument rated pilot depart legally without obtaining a clearance?
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There was a well-publicized enforcement case along these lines. Pilot thought he would be VFR before entering Class E. He was not. And, it's not legally possible to level off in IMC under even 1,200 agl Class E.
 
mscard88 said:
Just fog. Ok. :eek:
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As I said, everywhere but the airport was clear. 1/4 mile from the airport in every direction was clear, and I knew that because I had just driven 20 miles to get there, and heard the airplanes overhead mentioning the same thing.. Yes. Just fog.
 
at what altitude above the clag?.....500 ft?....1,000 ft?

that's the issue....how does one transition legally?
 
FORANE said:
I wouldn't plan on staying in class G, but rather climbing through the thin fog layer and entering class E. Isn't there an associated concern for 1000 ft cloud separation above the layer before entering class E?
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To operate VFR in Class E airspace you need to be 1000 feet above the cloud layer. If there's less than 1000' between the top of the cloud layer and the floor of Class E airspace you'll have to remain VFR in Class G airspace or obtain an IFR clearance before reaching Class E airspace.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
at what altitude above the clag?.....500 ft?....1,000 ft?

that's the issue....how does one transition legally?
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In my case I was above it as soon as I rotated. I was legal for Class G, and there was no fog under me by the time I got to E airspace.
 
EdFred said:
Class G airspace. There were no clouds. Just fog. Flight visibility was greater than 3 miles (greater than 50 actually) and no weather reporting at the field.
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Fog is just clouds with bases at the surface.
 
You can't even get a clearance in class G. Of course, you can get a clearance on the ground that covers you once you enter controlled airspace.
C'Ron ain't around but there was an chief counsel letter or enforcement action a few years back where a pilot was cited for careless and reckless for departing without the clearance for the overlying controlled airspace (I believe there was conflict with a cleared IFR arrival).
 
EdFred said:
Get on the runway, start the takeoff roll, and as soon as I rotate I'm blinded. The fog was probably only 50 feet deep at the most, and the sun was reflecting off the top of it.
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I learned this lesson a couple of months ago, could see clear blue sky above the airport with what appeared to be a light thin haze/fog layer about 400agl. Took off, hit, blinded for a second until i went through it, turned around to look at the airport and could see nothing but white. I on the other hand will not make that mistake again.
 
don't forget....the fog can get thicker rather quickly....and lock you out of making a quick return, if needed.
 
Even with a clearance, the pucker factor is high.

I took my family up to NC for a vacation over Christmas. When we left, had about 200 ft OVC due to fog, I had just finished the roll and about 5-10 seconds later I was in IMC. I was on an IFR flight plan, BUT until about Georgia the clouds were 200-500 ft or lower. Once we got to Georgia they started to rise appreciably.

I remember seeing all kinds of LIFR conditions on the way back to FL and thinking "Ok, engine dies right now, where do I go?". I always had options open to me, as most of the fields (with the exception of one) were above minimums.

Point is, if you depart, IFR or VFR in those conditions you basically have little chance of getting back to where you left in an emergency after takeoff. It's the same question you may get on the IFR oral: Can you under Part 91, legally depart under 0/0 conditions? Yep. Should you? Probably not.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
don't forget....the fog can get thicker rather quickly....and lock you out of making a quick return, if needed.
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Maybe if the T/D spread is shrinking , but not when it is expanding. It was late morning and warming rapidly.
 
EdFred said:
Maybe if the T/D spread is shrinking , but not when it is expanding. It was late morning and warming rapidly.
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Then you could have waited a short time and taken off in the clear.

Fatal accidents have happened with disorientation on or very shortly after rotation.
 
mscard88 said:
The plane flew into Lavender Mtn which is around the altitude you mention. Sounds like they were trying to stay out of the clouds and trying to get their clearance. Remember this was in '91, a bit different getting a clearance then, no cell phones for one thing. Killed the owner and his brother and the other seven people.
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Motorola DynaTac brick phone was out in 1984. MicroTac in 1989. StarTac in 1996. If an airport didn't have a 24/7 weather briefing room, it was very rare it didn't have a pay phone.

I remember this accident being as much of a WTF moment then as it would be today.
 
MAKG1 said:
Then you could have waited a short time and taken off in the clear.

Fatal accidents have happened with disorientation on or very shortly after rotation.
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We had already waited an hour.

Disorientation departing into clear skies? Then I should never be flying - ever. I've taken off in worse conditions from the same runway with a clearance void - because it was actual IMC from almost the ground to 4000'
 
They were on a schedule to hit numerous cities that they had stores in. I seem to recall them (PIC) being in a hurry (according to folks in the FBO) to get going to the next town and must have thought they could depart VFR and get their clearance airborne. Bad decision the PIC made that killed him and 8 others, and coming out of Birmigham as a home field they knew what the terrain was like there in Rome..
 
FORANE said:
Say you are at an uncontrolled field - class G - that has ground fog 1/4 vis, 100 ceiling, and is clear above the low fog layer. Can an instrument rated pilot depart legally without obtaining a clearance?
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lost me at uncontrolled. and did anyone ask themselves why? is your phone broken?
 
EdFred said:
Class G airspace. There were no clouds. Just fog. Flight visibility was greater than 3 miles (greater than 50 actually) and no weather reporting at the field.
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But wouldn't you be just fine regardless of weather as long as you were only in G ?
 
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