Can a private pilot log an overseas demo flight with a foreign CFI?

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BlueOrGraySkies

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BlueOrGraySkies
Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster. Unique situation here.

I'm from the USA but I'm currently spending lots of time in Costa Rica. I have my USA private pilot license and have almost completed my IFR ticket as well - I have about 100 hours of flight time thus far.

I wanted to go up for a flight in Costa Rica with a CFI to learn a bit about the airspace and see the terrain. I went to a flight school in San José to inquire about this, and they said I first need to go through a process in Costa Rica to get a Costa Rican reciprocal license for my USA PP license before I can receive dual instruction in Costa Rica. It's not a big deal to do (it's just some forms and a little $) but it takes some time.

The flight school said that if I really wanted to at least get airborne while I wait for my license reciprocity, I could take a demo flight with one of their CFIs, just like anybody can, pilot or not. So, I took the demo flight in Costa Rica because I really wanted to get up in the skies no matter the circumstances, and I had a blast!!!! This is where I get confused, though....

My question is, can I log this flight in my log book? My US FAA PP license is not valid on its own in Costa Rica so I don't think I can log PIC, and under Costa Rican guidelines I can't receive flight instruction in Costa Rica until my Costa Rican private pilot equivalency is processed so I don't think I can log any flight training received.

So, technically I was just a passenger going on a joyride with a CFI. But, I am also a US licensed pilot, and I was in the front seat of an airborne plane moving under its own power, outside of the US. I have no idea if I can count the time or not. And, if I can log it, I'm not sure how I would categorize it.

Any advice or information is appreciated.
 
Doesn't sound as if you were PIC.

Doesn't seem like you're discussing an aircraft with a defined SIC role, either.

Just because you're a PPL doesn't mean you get to log every time you step in a plane.

"and I was in the front seat of an airborne plane moving under its own power," - umm - yeah, so you were in the front seat and it wasn't being towed. You're looking for a Participation Trophy?

It's your logbook, write all the fiction you choose.
 
If you would ideally like to log the time to apply to future USA certificates/ratings/etc., then I think you only can if the FAA recognizes the flight training you received (regardless of what Costs Rica says). Can you fairly log the flight as dual received? Either way, I agree it doesn’t sound like legitimate PIC time.
 
Rgbeard said:
You're looking for a Participation Trophy?

It's your logbook, write all the fiction you choose.
Click to expand...

Just trying to make sure my logbook is accurate, hence the question.

Funny thing happened... not seeking a participation trophy or any kind of trophy.... but apparently this forum gave me a "first post trophy" right after I saw your message... had a chuckle about that!
 
Did you manipulate the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated? Then by 61.51 you can log it as PIC. There's a flowchart somewhere....

If you just rode along, and looked out the window, then no.
 
You can log anything you want in your logbook. The only thing that matters is whether that time is eligible to use for specific purpose.
 
Your best solution might have been to have the foreign CFI to endorse the flight in your logbook as instruction given.
 
If you were the sole manipulator of the controls, you could log it PIC. Otherwise, it seems like you can't log anything useful.

I have a bunch of hours in VH-UGK in Australia but I was flying under a letter of authorization from their civil aviation department. I wished the guys who set my trip up would have made the provision for me to get the Aussie pilot license. It isn't that hare and it's an impressive document.
 
Clip4 said:
Your best solution might have been to have the foreign CFI to endorse the flight in your logbook as instruction given.
Click to expand...
Except, he's not an authorized instructor as far as the FAA is concerned and he's apparently not providing any instruction anyhow. Of course, if our friend was actually flying the aircraft...
 
I had the same problem in Southern Africa. Your US PPL only authorizes you to fly N-registered airplanes. Did the plane have a Costa Rican registration?
 
DesertNomad said:
I had the same problem in Southern Africa. Your US PPL only authorizes you to fly N-registered airplanes. Did the plane have a Costa Rican registration?
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Indeed the plane did have a Costa Rican registration.
 
flyingron said:
Except, he's not an authorized instructor as far as the FAA is concerned and he's apparently not providing any instruction anyhow. Of course, if our friend was actually flying the aircraft...
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§ 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:

(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either -

(i) The United States; or

(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.

(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.

(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

A foreign CFI may train US pilots outside the US and the pilot may log the training.
 
DesertNomad said:
I had the same problem in Southern Africa. Your US PPL only authorizes you to fly N-registered airplanes. Did the plane have a Costa Rican registration?
Click to expand...

Not quite correct in regards to logging:

14 CFR 61.51(j)
Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b), and is -
(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry with either a standard or special airworthiness certificate;
(2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization;
(3) A military aircraft under the direct operational control of the U.S. Armed Forces; or
(4) A public aircraft under the direct operational control of a Federal, State, county, or municipal law enforcement agency, if the flight time was acquired by the pilot while engaged on an official law enforcement flight for a Federal, State, County, or Municipal law enforcement agency.

Not only is South Africa a member state of the ICAO, they are a council member state.
So is Costa Rica.

https://www.icao.int/MemberStates/Member States.English.pdf

Acting vs Logging rears its head again!
 
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EdFred said:
Not quite correct in regards to logging:

14 CFR 61.51(j)
Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b), and is -
(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry with either a standard or special airworthiness certificate;
(2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization;
(3) A military aircraft under the direct operational control of the U.S. Armed Forces; or
(4) A public aircraft under the direct operational control of a Federal, State, county, or municipal law enforcement agency, if the flight time was acquired by the pilot while engaged on an official law enforcement flight for a Federal, State, County, or Municipal law enforcement agency.

Not only is South Africa a member state of the ICAO, they are a council member state.
So is Costa Rica.

https://www.icao.int/MemberStates/Member States.English.pdf

Acting vs Logging rears its head again!
Click to expand...

I need to make that more clear. I was a pre-solo student pilot and the guy flying did not have a South African CFI, only a PPL conversion on his UAE ATP license. I am pretty sure that I can’t count the time that I was sole manipulator.

Even if I had a PPL, I would not be legal to fly a South African registered 182 in South Africa without a South African conversion on my FAA license. While the FAA might not care, the South African authorities would.
 
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DesertNomad said:
I need to make that more clear. I was a pre-solo student pilot and the guy flying did not have a South African CFI, only a PPL conversion on his UAE license. I am pretty sure that I can’t count the time that I was sole manipulator.
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Yeah, that's a whole lot of other variables thrown in. :)

I tried to do some flying while I was in SA, but the flight place never got back to me. I wanted to fly the Twinkie (with a CFI because I wasn't going to convert for a single day) but they never got back to me. SO I played golf across the street instead.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, that's a whole lot of other variables thrown in. :)

I tried to do some flying while I was in SA, but the flight place never got back to me. I wanted to fly the Twinkie (with a CFI because I wasn't going to convert for a single day) but they never got back to me. SO I played golf across the street instead.
Click to expand...

We spent three weeks with a 182 in South Africa, Mozambique, Malawi, Zimbabwe and Botswana. It got me hooked on flying.
 
Thank you everybody for the information and perspectives shared. It's interesting how many others have found themselves in similar circumstances. I'll follow up with the outcome once I have everything sorted out, hopefully soon.
 
Circling back with the outcome...

I did not log the demo flight. After reading your replies and looking into regulations further, I came to the conclusion that no matter if I manipulated the controls or not, logging it would create a problem as follows:

1. If I did manipulate the controls, it would be fine to log PIC as far as the USA FAA is concerned, since it was a foreign aircraft that was appropriately registered in a foreign country with a CFII who was appropriately certified to give instruction. However, it would be a problem for the Costa Rican DGAC if I logged it, since I was not supposed to manipulate the controls of a plane in Costa Rica at the time since I had only my USA PPL and did not yet have the Costa Rican equivalent.

2. If I did not manipulate the controls, it would not meet requirements for PIC as far as the USA FAA is concerned, and would still cause the same issues if ever checked in Costa Rica.​

So, that flight will remain a wonderful memory, but won't count towards my flight hours. That said...

I successfully applied for the covalidation of my USA PPL here in Costa Rica, and received it recently. Since I'm now legal to fly in Costa Rica, I recently took a training ride with a CFII and did a few practice instrument approaches at MROC (SJO). Since that flight meets 100% of the requirements in the USA and Costa Rica to be logged, I finally have some Costa Rican airports in my book.
 
I once had an opportunity to get some time in a Boeing 777 class D simulator.
I know it's questionable about being legit...my airline ATP instructor friend didn't hold a CFI, and probably all sorts of other potential reasons....
I spent all of about 2 seconds contemplating if I was going to log 777 time. :cool:
I don't care if it's legit or not. I'm not using that time towards any sort of rating, etc... and it's a fly spec of my total time...so I can't imagine why anyone would really care.
A fun memory for sure! I want to say that it was an "unreal experience".... but that thing was realistic, right down to the sound and vibration when the flaps and gear extend. Amazing.
 
BlueOrGraySkies said:
Circling back with the outcome...

I did not log the demo flight. After reading your replies and looking into regulations further, I came to the conclusion that no matter if I manipulated the controls or not, logging it would create a problem as follows:

1. If I did manipulate the controls, it would be fine to log PIC as far as the USA FAA is concerned, since it was a foreign aircraft that was appropriately registered in a foreign country with a CFII who was appropriately certified to give instruction. However, it would be a problem for the Costa Rican DGAC if I logged it, since I was not supposed to manipulate the controls of a plane in Costa Rica at the time since I had only my USA PPL and did not yet have the Costa Rican equivalent.

2. If I did not manipulate the controls, it would not meet requirements for PIC as far as the USA FAA is concerned, and would still cause the same issues if ever checked in Costa Rica.​

So, that flight will remain a wonderful memory, but won't count towards my flight hours. That said...

I successfully applied for the covalidation of my USA PPL here in Costa Rica, and received it recently. Since I'm now legal to fly in Costa Rica, I recently took a training ride with a CFII and did a few practice instrument approaches at MROC (SJO). Since that flight meets 100% of the requirements in the USA and Costa Rica to be logged, I finally have some Costa Rican airports in my book.
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#1 is interesting - so, unlike the US, Costa Rica prohibits pilots from allowing a nonpilot to touch the controls? Since you researched this, do you have a regulatory reference?
 
midlifeflyer said:
#1 is interesting - so, unlike the US, Costa Rica prohibits pilots from allowing a nonpilot to touch the controls? Since you researched this, do you have a regulatory reference?
Click to expand...

Good question, and I do not have the specific reference from the Costa Rican regulations.

This is simply what I was told by the flight school where I took the flight. I checked with a second flight school and they told me the same thing as well.

So, I have not found the regulation on my own (my Spanish is good but not quite that good), but hearing the same thing from two flight schools leads me to conclude that either it is true or that enough people believe it to be true that it matters.
 
BlueOrGraySkies said:
Good question, and I do not have the specific reference from the Costa Rican regulations.

This is simply what I was told by the flight school where I took the flight. I checked with a second flight school and they told me the same thing as well.

So, I have not found the regulation on my own (my Spanish is good but not quite that good), but hearing the same thing from two flight schools leads me to conclude that either it is true or that enough people believe it to be true that it matters.
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Do they have student pilots? Do they have to have some kind of certificate to take their first lesson? I'm asking because, if I am only logging under 61.51, I only care about what the FAA thinks about how I log. If I'm logging for certificates or ratings in the other country, then I want to know their rules. If they have rules about who is allowed to manipulate the controls, then their rules are important for that. It's the old difference between doing and logging.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Do they have student pilots? Do they have to have some kind of certificate to take their first lesson? I'm asking because, if I am only logging under 61.51, I only care about what the FAA thinks about how I log. If I'm logging for certificates or ratings in the other country, then I want to know their rules. If they have rules about who is allowed to manipulate the controls, then their rules are important for that. It's the old difference between doing and logging.
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Yes, CR has student pilots. I don't know about the requirements for student pilots in CR. So far I only know that I have to have a co-validated version of my USA PPL if I want to take some IFR training flights here.

My main purpose for flying in CR is to keep learning and keep my knowledge fresh for when I return to the USA to finish my IFR ticket. I spend months at a time overseas, and don't want my flying 'muscles' to atrophy. Well, and also it's fun!
 
This is a long time discussion in many aviation forums.

The first thing to realize is that BEING PIC and LOGGING PIC are two different things. You do not need to BE the PIC to LOG PIC time.

If you were sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft that were rated for, you can LOG PIC.
 
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