Can a HOA impose and collect fines for speeding (NC state)

This will sound harsh, but if you don't want your kids to be run over by cars going 60 mph, either don't live in the country, or teach your kids how to cross a street. In my view hoa's are based on a combination of greed, in trying to keep property values up, of people who are more comfortable living in a city/nanny environment than the country, and of people that want to play air warden. As far as 'anti-authority' being a hazardous attitude, in the context of flying it's true. In the context of government, we have a civic duty to question the reasonableness of government at all times. They answer to us, not the other way around.

We need more layers of regulation like we need poked in the eye with a stick.
 
Albany Tom said:
This will sound harsh, but if you don't want your kids to be run over by cars going 60 mph, either don't live in the country, or teach your kids how to cross a street. In my view hoa's are based on a combination of greed, in trying to keep property values up, of people who are more comfortable living in a city/nanny environment than the country, and of people that want to play air warden. As far as 'anti-authority' being a hazardous attitude, in the context of flying it's true. In the context of government, we have a civic duty to question the reasonableness of government at all times. They answer to us, not the other way around.

We need more layers of regulation like we need poked in the eye with a stick.
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Yes! And there is an irony in the government telling you that if you are anti-them, you are dangerous.

Reminds me of the comedian Emo Phillips when he said,

“I Thought the Brain Was the Most Important Organ Until I Realized What Was Telling Me That”​

 
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I feel bad for people who have to live in urban/suburban areas where they need to deal with this stuff. Blows my mind that people actual want these things, I realize that we're hearing the horror stories and most of them aren't so bad but still. That's your home and you're willing to let people dictate what you do with it over property values and minor annoyances? I just can't relate.
 
cowman said:
I feel bad for people who have to live in urban/suburban areas where they need to deal with this stuff. Blows my mind that people actual want these things, I realize that we're hearing the horror stories and most of them aren't so bad but still. That's your home and you're willing to let people dictate what you do with it over property values and minor annoyances? I just can't relate.
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Indeed. It's a multi-faceted dynamic, but the core of it is the rank financialization of housing, becoming so entrenched in the average American's view of retirement solvency. It's a big folly to put all your eggs in the same basket, and it frankly got away from the Country. Now you have people pulling up motes around their perceived retirement nest egg, and people become tribal and Hunger Gamey real quick. NIMBYism abounds, and gives rise to this entitled attitude of your neighbor OWING you the preservation of your perceived resale value. Add to that the cultural normalization of house-poor budgets, and you get a glimpse into the genesis of this HOA neurosis.
 
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Y'know, people can and do sue HOA's in courts of law over unreasonable regulations and fines levied for non-compliance. Often it's in small claims, where rules of evidence and procedure are far more relaxed.

And it's not uncommon that the aggrieved homeowner wins. It's unfortunate situations deteriorate to that point, but that's what the system is for. It's not anti-authority if you use sanctioned procedures to challenge an arbitrary regulation in court.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Y'know, people can and do sue HOA's in courts of law over unreasonable regulations and fines levied for non-compliance. Often it's in small claims, where rules of evidence and procedure are far more relaxed.

And it's not uncommon that the aggrieved homeowner wins. It's unfortunate situations deteriorate to that point, but that's what the system is for. It's not anti-authority if you use sanctioned procedures to challenge an arbitrary regulation in court.
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Most people can't afford that.
 
SkyChaser said:
Most people can't afford that.
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In MD, filing a small claims action is $10 or $15. One thing I've learned in business, some matters you need a lawyer, some, I would say most, you don't.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
In MD, filing a small claims action is $10 or $15. One thing I've learned in business, some matters you need a lawyer, some, I would say most, you don't.
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And it might not have to go to court. My neighborhood kicked in 15K and the insurance company 80K to settle an issue with a neighbor which the HOA would have surely lost had it gone to court.
 
I've lived under three dictatorsh... err.. I mean HOAs. Two were reasonable, one not so much.
In the first two you had to do something exceedingly stupid or inconsiderate to get a citation. Like... intentionally ridiculous (aka drive 50 in a 20, or blare music with max bass at 4am). Those were good HOAs.
In the latter, the bad one, they kind of used the HOA as a legal form of harassment. If your neighbors don't like you personally, you're going to get cited for any infraction. HOA meetings essentially become a gossip session for the long-time members (and no, those gossip comments never made it into the meeting minutes). I stopped attending for this reason.

Personally, I've found that most people who seek to be on a HOA board are exactly the people you don't want to be on a HOA boards. Surprising how that applies to politicians, too.
Frankly anyone itching to exercise the power of their pseudo-legitimate enforcement is someone to walk a wide circle around.
 
Salty said:
It has nothing to do with speeding. It's about giving someone who has zero right to it, authority over you.

What problem is it solving? Surely there is a better way to solve it than a private police force?
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It’s a HOA fine, no points on you license, no license suspensions, no arrest powers. If your can’t drive you car on private streets in a reasonable manor move.
 
Clip4 said:
It’s an HOA fine, no points on your license, no license suspensions, no arrest powers. If you can’t drive your car on private streets in a reasonable manner, move.
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FIFY
 
Even if OP had the HOA contract, I doubt that it considered traffic enforcement as part of what's in writing on the document. More likely it says something to the effect of we can do whatever we want. So no recourse without going to court.
It would help if the OP mentioned that his issue isn't that he can't drive recklessly, but rather this is so far our of bounds of what an HOA should be sticking their fingers in.
 
Salty said:
Missed the point as usual.
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You entered into an agreement when you purchased in an HOA to certain conditions. The authority of the HOA board to adopt and enforce rules/regulations and to levy fines was part of the conditions you agreed to.

You express an opinion that something other than fines for driving too fast in the community should be the deterrent, which is absurd.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
In MD, filing a small claims action is $10 or $15. One thing I've learned in business, some matters you need a lawyer, some, I would say most, you don't.
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You may be right, but quite frankly, I doubt the average homeowner has the knowledge, skills, time, or ability to fight the HOA's lawyers in court and win.
 
A frind of mine, his mom lived in a HOA for a few years. As they were getting the house ready to sell, he painted the front door and window shutters the EXACT COLOR they were.

The lady across the street complained about the color change so they were told they would have to paint the door and shutters back to the original color...

My friend showed the ''esteemed'' board before and after pictures and asked how dumb can some people be. After an hour of discussion the board made a ruling that no color change occurred.

In the meantime, he filed a complaint on the lady across the street. Her front door was red, which was on the approved door color list. He wrote that a red door is the sign of a house of ill repute and on weekends several people have been seen going in and out of that house. Not long after red was taken off the approved front door color list and was put on the unapproved color list.

Did I mention he was a deputy sheriff back then, and went to the board meeting in uniform.?? He is big enough to be pretty intimidating...
 
The one time I was foolish enough to buy a home with an HOA was enough. But there are work-arounds to some of the rules. For instance, my neighbor had an unsightly tree in his yard that appeared to by dying. He wanted it removed. The HOA said no. The rules allowed for trimming trees and bushes on the property so, he trimmed that tree about every Saturday for a few months ... :rofl:
 
Hang 4 said:
Even if OP had the HOA contract, I doubt that it considered traffic enforcement as part of what's in writing on the document. More likely it says something to the effect of we can do whatever we want. So no recourse without going to court.
It would help if the OP mentioned that his issue isn't that he can't drive recklessly, but rather this is so far our of bounds of what an HOA should be sticking their fingers in.
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I'd counter that especially as this is a private road and perhaps a gated community (not certain), the safety and security of the neighborhood isn't out of bounds for the HOA.

I'm against unreasonable HOA overreach, but I don't see enforcement of speed limits on the private roads within the neighborhood to be unreasonable, or even an overreach. Instead I'd bet there's something about "safety and security" in the HOA documents.
 
RussR said:
I'd counter that especially as this is a private road and perhaps a gated community (not certain), the safety and security of the neighborhood isn't out of bounds for the HOA.

I'm against unreasonable HOA overreach, but I don't see enforcement of speed limits on the private roads within the neighborhood to be unreasonable, or even an overreach. Instead I'd bet there's something about "safety and security" in the HOA documents.
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I wonder what it would cost to purchase the equipment, train the users, and pay them to do this enforcement properly and fairly. Surely, if speeding is truly a big problem, the proper authorities would be able to assist.
 
Salty said:
I wonder what it would cost to purchase the equipment, train the users, and pay them to do this enforcement properly and fairly. Surely, if speeding is truly a big problem, the proper authorities would be able to assist.
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Proper authorities probably won't help enforce a speed limit unless it's established that it's reasonable based on traffic engineering criteria as outlined in my first post. Step one: establish the speed limit is reasonable, not arbitrary and capricious and meant to unfairly penalize residents in one or another section of the development. Is it 5mph? 25mph? Is it a long stretch of clear straight or curvy tree lined?

If it's arbitrary and capricious, then bring it before a judge. If it's reasonable and in compliance with accepted standards, and the residents just don't want to slow, then it's a different matter.
 
There are two sides to every story. I have friends who live in an HOA community and it sounds draconian. Can't the garage door open for more than an hour, etc.

But I've owned five homes in three states. Two were in an HOA and three weren't. The two that were in an HOA weren't too bad. I never had much interaction with the HOA at all. Any rules or requirements seemed completely reasonable to me. Don't leave trash cans on the street all week, cut your grass, etc.

The last place we lived the longest wasn't in an HOA. Biggest problem we had was a neighbor who insisted on burning yard debris EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND. I don't know where this got stuff to burn but every weekend he had a big, smokey fire going. And of course the prevailing winds always blew towards our house and away from his. Few things are as annoying as that first cool day in the fall or warm day in the spring where you can open the windows for the first time in months only to have to immediately shut them because of thick clouds of smoke.

Where we live now doesn't have an HOA either. Used to be a much nicer neighborhood. About a quarter of the houses are waterfront. But since Michael, there are still 5 or 6 houses that haven't been repaired since the hurricane... FIVE YEARS AGO. One guy has tried to sell his house a couple times but the one next to it has been empty since the storm, weeds growing all around it. He said the realtor has had a few people that were interested but didn't want to live next to an abandoned house.

Point is, like anything, there are pluses and minuses. If you think the HOA minuses outweigh the pluses, don't buy a house in an HOA. Every state I've lived in has rules where you have to sign off that you have been informed that the home is in an HOA, how much the HOA fees are, and that you agree to it.
 
Clip4 said:
You entered into an agreement when you purchased in an HOA to certain conditions. The authority of the HOA board to adopt and enforce rules/regulations and to levy fines was part of the conditions you agreed to.

You express an opinion that something other than fines for driving too fast in the community should be the deterrent, which is absurd.
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What is too fast?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Y'know, people can and do sue HOA's in courts of law over unreasonable regulations and fines levied for non-compliance. Often it's in small claims, where rules of evidence and procedure are far more relaxed.
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Yes, they do, but small claims courts and judges deal with determining blame and liability and assessing damages, not with determing guilt or innocence. I'm not sure how well it will work to turn one into an ersatz traffic court.

With a normal speeding ticket, you can go to traffic court and challenge the ticket. You can question the officer (who sometimes won't show and you get to skate), you can ask about his training and experience and currency with the speed measuring equipment, you can query the equipment's calibration and accuracy, etc., etc. You can question the location and visibility of the speed limit sign. And on and on and on, all without having to file a lawsuit against the municipality.

I may be wrong, but I can't really see this happening in a small claims court. And a charged person should not have to file a lawsuit to get his day in court.
 
If the fundamental issue is people driving at excessive speeds within the community, why would the HOA not simply invite Police Officers from the local department into the neighborhood to curtail speeding?
 
Morgan3820 said:
Our HOA has announced that a company has been hired to place speed cameras to catch violators.
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This is the real kicker. We're not talking security people pulling you over and handing you a ticket. Instead a private company has been hired (typically meaning they get a cut of the proceeds from fines) to set up cameras and ticket people passively. There is of course a cost to install and operate these cameras, so the company and the HOA is motivated to hand out at least enough tickets to break even, and you can bet they want a profit. You won't even know you've been driving 0.5mph over the limit until the end of the month when you get thirty fines in the mail.

This situation is why speeding and red-light cameras have been tossed out in so many places.

(Fortunately a paintball gun at midnight can probably correct the problem.)
 
My question is this ... how much enforcement authority do they have if you tell them to pound sand? Can they give you jail time, subpoena you into court, force you out of your house, or tow away your vehicle? Curious ...
 
Half Fast said:
This is the real kicker. We're not talking security people pulling you over and handing you a ticket. Instead a private company has been hired (typically meaning they get a cut of the proceeds from fines) to set up cameras and ticket people passively. There is of course a cost to install and operate these cameras, so the company and the HOA is motivated to hand out at least enough tickets to break even, and you can bet they want a profit. You won't even know you've been driving 0.5mph over the limit until the end of the month when you get thirty fines in the mail.

This situation is why speeding and red-light cameras have been tossed out in so many places.

(Fortunately a paintball gun at midnight can probably correct the problem.)
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Capitalism, meet surveillance.
Surveillance, meet capitalism.
Not a good mix.
(one of the rare cases where I'm against privatization, for the exact reasons you mention)
 
2-Bit Speed said:
If the fundamental issue is people driving at excessive speeds within the community, why would the HOA not simply invite Police Officers from the local department into the neighborhood to curtail speeding?
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Since the OP said the HOA owns the streets I'm not sure the local police would enforce speed limits on private property.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Capitalism, meet surveillance.
Surveillance, meet capitalism.
Not a good mix.
(one of the rare cases where I'm against privatization, for the exact reasons you mention)
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Lemme tell ya a tale, a true one, though I probably don't recall the details exactly.

Once upon a time in the land of Lockheed Martin, LM purchased a small company which, as one of its products, made and managed traffic enforcement cameras.

Our CEO at the time, Bob Stevens, expended quite a bit of effort to gain an audience with an influential senator to discuss funding for a major program and try to win the senator's support. IIRC, he secured a 20 minute window on the senator's calendar. Well, it seems that a couple of weeks prior, this particular senator had received a ticket from one of LockMart's cameras and he was still PO'd about it. According to Bob, they spent 17 of the allotted 20 minutes "discussing" (meaning the senator talked and Bob listened) the senator's ticket and his displeasure.

We unloaded the traffic camera business almost immediately afterward, as it wasn't worth jeopardizing large defense contracts to make a few bucks from ticket fines.
 
Punkinhead said:
Since the OP said the HOA owns the streets I'm not sure the local police would enforce speed limits on private property.
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My experience, which is dated and is local to central Florida, is that they will if asked, other duties permitting. I believe you can also hire off-duty cops; I'm guessing they could write tickets but I don't know specifically.
 
About 100 yrs ago Nevil Shute made a pretty good argument that private sector management is generally a lot more efficient than public sector. He didn't foresee the worst possible scenario, though, and that's a mix of private and public working together. Sometimes is can produce good results - space program, etc - but no less then Eisenhower warned about it in one of his last speeches.

The solution here, if there really is a problem with speeding vs hysteria of people not used to cars moving at normal speeds, seems to be to bring in actual sworn law enforcement officers, and let them patrol the road. Because to do otherwise, seems to me the HOA board might be setting themselves up to have the expectations of actually protecting people from bad driving, which they cannot do. Or in other words, in my head they're assuming the liability of not allowing law enforcement to do their jobs by their privatizing part of it. Drunk driving accident, someone gets killed because they don't have any method to use actual law enforcement inside they're 'protected space'? If I'm on a jury I'm finding against the HOA board, individually, for that loss. You make a decision like that? To me, just an average guy, I think you're trying to play government, and I'd support you losing everything you own because of it. But that's just me...I'm sure nobody is that set against HOA's as me, and I'm sure the jury would be fair and impartial...as would I.
 
Y'know, @Morgan3820 , it might be worth digging a little into the ownership of the company they're hiring, and you might also want to understand the contract and financial situation. It wouldn't be too surprising to find that one or more HOA board members will have some money flow into their pockets from this, though it might be a rather indirect route.

HINT - if this is really about safety and not about revenue, the HOA should not receive any money from the fines. It should all go to the company. The contract will give you some idea of just how much they're trying to protect the community versus suck money from the community.
 
related: if it's about safety rather than a revenue stream, then the HOA should be happy if there comes a time when there are zero fines from people speeding. Whether of not the HOA continues to pay for the cameras is a question for that time...
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, they do, but small claims courts and judges deal with determining blame and liability and assessing damages, not with determing guilt or innocence. I'm not sure how well it will work to turn one into an ersatz traffic court.

With a normal speeding ticket, you can go to traffic court and challenge the ticket. You can question the officer (who sometimes won't show and you get to skate), you can ask about his training and experience and currency with the speed measuring equipment, you can query the equipment's calibration and accuracy, etc., etc. You can question the location and visibility of the speed limit sign. And on and on and on, all without having to file a lawsuit against the municipality.

I may be wrong, but I can't really see this happening in a small claims court. And a charged person should not have to file a lawsuit to get his day in court.
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The matter wouldn't be to adjudicate a speeding ticket. The matter would be to ajudicate whether the the HOA had a right to lawfully impose, levy and and collect a fine for enforcing a speed limit, without a mechanism to challenge guilt or innocence, and whether the speed limit was a fair and equitable lawful regulation in accordance with the covenants on private property. If the amounts collected by the HOA total under $10k, in most states it would qualify as a small claims matter.

With speed cameras on public roads, you can choose not to pay the fine and go to court. However, you will lose, and be assessed points as well as fines and costs. Does the HOA provide any way to fight the ticket?
 
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Private roads are HOA common land and the HOA definitely has authority to regulate common lands, including a fine.

if you and your neighbors don’t like the cameras, there are many actions you can take. Run for the board yourselves. Petition the board. Show up at meetings and constantly ask for changes. Take them to court over procedural issue like company selection, proving when the signs were installed, visibility, notification periods, hazards of machine placement, etc. Sue the HOA board members personally for breach of office. You might not win any of them, but the annoyance of having to defend themselves against so many people constantly may convince them to change. Do things which are annoying but not outside the rules. Sell your house under market value and destroy their comps. How strongly do you feel about it?
 
bflynn said:
Private roads are HOA common land and the HOA definitely has authority to regulate common lands, including a fine.

if you and your neighbors don’t like the cameras, there are many actions you can take. Run for the board yourselves. Petition the board. Show up at meetings and constantly ask for changes. Take them to court over procedural issue like company selection, proving when the signs were installed, visibility, notification periods, hazards of machine placement, etc. Sue the HOA board members personally for breach of office. You might not win any of them, but the annoyance of having to defend themselves against so many people constantly may convince them to change. Do things which are annoying but not outside the rules. Sell your house under market value and destroy their comps. How strongly do you feel about it?
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Or you can just buy a home in the country with a bit of acreage to start with ...
 
Daleandee said:
My question is this ... how much enforcement authority do they have if you tell them to pound sand? Can they give you jail time, subpoena you into court, force you out of your house, or tow away your vehicle? Curious ...
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Most owners in an HOA don’t know how this progresses.

Any unpaid assessment or fine accrues late fees each month. The HOA Board has authorized their attorney to monitor delinquent accounts from the comfort of their law office.

When a delinquent account reaches an established level, automatically a letter is sent advising the owner to pay balance + late fees + attorney fees or a lien will be placed on you property.

The last last step is default, foreclosure on the property and sale at public auction.

Hard heads can and do lose their property over not paying a rather small amount and letting it get out of control.
 
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Clip4 said:
Hard heads can and do lose their property over not paying a rather small amount and letting it get out of control
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The telling part of this sentence is that you think the guy that “owes” the small amount is the bad guy, not the one that’s taking his property over that small amount.
 
Salty said:
The telling part of this sentence is that you think the guy that “owes” the small amount is the bad guy, not the one that’s taking his property over that small amount.
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Someone would have to be a particularly hard headed deadbeat to loose a house over something like this. Foreclosure is the last step in only the most agregious cases.

I bought my first house over 30 years ago as a 20-something with all the naivete that comes with being that young, but even then I knew that if I bought in an HOA neighborhood I was contractually agreeing to give up some level of control of my property. So I chose to build in a non-HOA neighborhood. I've never lived under an HOA and never will. If you don't want to live up to the terms of a contract then don't sign one.
 
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