C172 down at KMYF?

[wanttaja]

.... I have to wonder if this wasn't intentional.

Have you seen the video? Reportedly this was a "training flight" which means there was a CFI onboard. Reports are it was a a""go around?" How hard is that, especially with a CFI onboard? They had level ground below. Why keep the nose so high to make the aircratt stop flying. We are not talking about a 737 here. They had plenty of room to set it down and not have to pay the insurance deductible.

So, you're saying this was an attempted suicide with another pilot onboard? Seems far-fetched. BTW, only about 0.3% of 172 accidents are suicide or suspected suicide. A lot less common than stalls. Maybe it was, but the odds are in favor of it being an accidental stall.

Mistakes in airmanship happen to everyone, at all levels of experience. Take DFW06CA174, for instance. Flight instructor with 20,000 hours, stalled out in a 172 during a simulated forced landing with a student. Or LAX03FA124. ATP with 13,000 hours (600 in the past six months), DPE for a Private Pilot applicant. Stalled and spun in at the practice area. CHI02LA077, with a 6000-hour instructor demonstrating a short-field landing, stalling out short of the runway.

Sometimes its bad training, sometimes it's just the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up. Owning a single-seat airplane means I'm renting a 172 or Cherokee for my BFRs...great fun when your normal plane has wildly different characteristics. One BFR, I was instructed to perform a departure stall. Went to full power, pulled the nose up so speed was gradually decreasing...only to get yelled at by the instructor: "Get the nose up higher, it'll never stall otherwise!"

Well...yes it will. Stalling depends on angle of attack, not deck angle.

Aviation graveyards are filled with pilots whose experience should have protected them. None of them were stupid, most were excellent pilots. But, still they died at the controls, often because of stupid mistakes. Frank Tallman. Richard McSpadden. Dale Snodgrass.

One should look at accidents as an opportunity to learn...not just to bad mouth pilots who "should have known better" or suggesting they were deliberately committing suicide.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Lindberg]

We have a few members here who seem to only show up to comment on accident threads. I wonder what motivates that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What's the purpose in practicing touch and goes?

To do multiple takeoffs and landings in a shorter amount of time. A touch & go consists of (1) performing the landing of your choice (2) casually reconfiguring the airplane for the takeoff of your choice while rolling out, and (3) performing the takeoff of your choice.

That doesn't sound like the aborted landing due to instability, an object on the runway, etc, involved in a go-around.

 

[Den60]

Your right, I've done them too and it can be done. WIth 40 degrees in and full power it takes a surprisingly firm steady forward push on the yoke to prevent the nose from pitching up and preventing flying airspeed from deteriorating. The main thing is to be patient however and allow a definitive positive climb rate to be established as well as gaining some altitude before gradually retracting the flaps. This is a maneuver that can be practiced at safe altitudes in a practice area and it's probably a good idea to do so if one plans to use 40 degrees (at times).

I can see that, I guess. I flew a 172 with "strong arm flaps." You could get in and out of them quickly and you knew from the position of the arm exactly what your settings were. For me, the flap switch was a bit difficult to reach, much less see what setting you are on. But there were two pilots in the AC and the CFI was likely in the right seat so the switch was right there. It's been years for me since I've flown, but the only thing I remember being told not do do was slip the AC with more than 20 flaps.

 

[Den60]

We have a few members here who seem to only show up to comment on accident threads. I wonder what motivates that.

If that was meant for me, this is a local incident in an aircraft model I have have flown. I think all pilots, current or non-current, look at incidents to figure out what happenned so that they could avoid the same issue. Back when I was flying, I always would remind myself when I could turn around to make it back to the airfield safely. If I didn't get to that point, I'm on the road. A few years back, a doctor left SEE with his wife and two dogs in a 182. Had some sort of issue with power and tried to come back. Ended up crashing into a window company's stock yard. He had a freeway to his right, though would have been packed but plenty of room in between the west and east lines as it was designed to be expanded. Would have broke the plane, but that is what insurance is for. One dog did survive. Complacency kills.

 

[Lindberg]

If that was meant for me, this is a local incident in an aircraft model I have have flown. I think all pilots, current or non-current, look at incidents to figure out what happenned so that they could avoid the same issue. Back when I was flying, I always would remind myself when I could turn around to make it back to the airfield safely. If I didn't get to that point, I'm on the road. A few years back, a doctor left SEE with his wife and two dogs in a 182. Had some sort of issue with power and tried to come back. Ended up crashing into a window company's stock yard. He had a freeway to his right, though would have been packed but plenty of room in between the west and east lines as it was designed to be expanded. Would have broke the plane, but that is what insurance is for. One dog did survive. Complacency kills.

You're not the only member in this thread whose posting history is all accident threads. It's just an interesting phenomenon I've observed.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

We have a few members here who seem to only show up to comment on accident threads. I wonder what motivates that.

I look at most of them, and comment on many, because I have worked in aviation safety and it changed a lot of how I think about accidents and preventing them.

Of course, I comment on everything.

 

[davela]

We have a few members here who seem to only show up to comment on accident threads. I wonder what motivates that.

Well we have no idea what you post about since you hide that information, yet are quick to implicity criticize others here who are interested in aviation safety and accident prevention. It turns out the 45,000 uneventful flights that take off and land every day in this country are not particularly worth posting about since they do not tell us much about understanding and improving aviation safety.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

You're not the only member in this thread whose posting history is all accident threads. It's just an interesting phenomenon I've observed.

I read about every single accident, all over the world. I've done that forever, but with the internet it's vastly easier to get more of them.
Safety was a huge part of my job for two decades (publishing certification reports for an aviation/aerospace company.) I got to read about every single pertinent failure that lead to, at the very least, engine failure.
I'm also a true crime aficionado. Probably all related to my type of mind.

 

[ionel]

To do multiple takeoffs and landings in a shorter amount of time. A touch & go consists of (1) performing the landing of your choice (2) casually reconfiguring the airplane for the takeoff of your choice while rolling out, and (3) performing the takeoff of your choice.

But "practicing" for what? When do you need to make a rolling mid field take off with airplane with landing flap etc configuration needing to transition to takeoff settings? Ok sure if there is a zombie apocalypse, ya gotta get out of town and you left you flaps in land mode when parked in the hanger.

How do you have time in this "casual" rolling "takeoff of you choice" to check MP, RPM, TIT, takeoff check list, lean for density altitude takeoff, check fuel and tank setting etc.

My takeoff SOP included always ensuring on the left main tank. Why because that was my climb tank, first 0.5 or 1.0 hr depending on expected trip time. The other tanks were at cruise burn. If ran out of fuel in left main knew had more time in right and outboard but fuel flow greater than expected so time to land. It never happened but that was the plan. Should one practice changing to takeoff tank on touch and go? I'd say no!

Even landing its not your normal landing procedure. After on ground stable roll out one should dump the flaps to reduce lift and increase weight on mains for braking not reset to takeoff position.

Touch & goes are not the same as practice for go around. Go around should be recognized while still in the air on approach. Someone is going to argue what if there is a deer on the runway, I could hop over it. Do we practice quick hop and landing gear tuck? Deer can hop too. Prob more important to practice rejected take offs.

Sure we were all taught it in 150/172 by our instructor but just cause something was done 50 years ago doesn't mean its best today. Do the airlines practice T&Gs ... even in the sim?

 

[midlifeflyer]

But "practicing" for what?

I'm not sure what you misunderstood from my response. You are practicing landings and trying to save time by not coming to a full stop and taxing back.

You said

Touch & goes are not the same as practice for go around

I said

That doesn't sound like the aborted landing due to instability, an object on the runway, etc, involved in a go-around.

Does that help clarify that we agree with each other?

 

[Dixiebluesky]

I don't know why people are convinced there is only one right way to go around and that you must be WFO immediately. In 99.9 percent of cases it is completely unnecessary. Put in enough power to arrest the descent, move the trim and add more power in a smooth controlled manner, when airspeed has increased start putting the flaps up. You do not have to have everything done in under 2 seconds.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I don't know why people are convinced there is only one right way to go around and that you must be WFO immediately. In 99.9 percent of cases it is completely unnecessary. Put in enough power to arrest the descent, move the trim and add more power in a smooth controlled manner, when airspeed has increased start putting the flaps up. You do not have to have everything done in under 2 seconds.

Yep. That bit me a little. On the long runway at my home field, there is no need to be in a hurry (it's 1,800 feet more than what I learned on, decades ago. I keep forgetting that.)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But "practicing" for what?

Landings, usually.

When do you need to make a rolling mid field take off with airplane with landing flap etc configuration needing to transition to takeoff settings? Ok sure if there is a zombie apocalypse, ya gotta get out of town and you left you flaps in land mode when parked in the hanger.

You practice landings, not T&Gs. T&Gs are just the quickest way to get a bunch of landings in.

After on ground stable roll out one should dump the flaps to reduce lift and increase weight on mains for braking not reset to takeoff position.

Disagree. Too many people have learned this way, and then grabbed the gear handle instead of the flap handle while the wings were still providing enough lift that the WoW wasn't registering being on the ground and found themselves with a belly landing even though they had the gear down before landing.

Better method: Leave the flaps as is (they do provide some aero braking), apply brakes to the extent you can which will give you some pitch down force, then pull full aft elevator which gives you some more aero braking plus will put more downward force onto the wheels. You just have to have enough braking power that the elevator can't pitch you back up. Not difficult at all, and prevents any inadvertent gear retraction.

 

[davela]

A bit of nunace here. On the commercial check ride, in a complex aircraft (at least when I took mine some time ago), one must demostrate a short field landing. Raising the flaps after touching down is the correct procedure to enhance braking effectiveness and one must demonstrate this. And yes, indeed, confusing a flap lever with a gear lever is a hazard that can happen, but a commercial pilot is expected to handle this correctly. It's not a totally routine maneuver for most GA pilots, but it must be used at times and mastered nevertheless. Many retractables (most or all?) have so-called "squat switch" to prevent a gear retraction on the ground, but it still happens, especially if the plane is not firmly on the ground, as is often the case immediately after landing.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

A bit of nunace here. On the commercial check ride, in a complex aircraft (at least when I took mine some time ago), one must demostrate a short field landing. Raising the flaps after touching down is the correct procedure to enhance braking effectiveness and one must demonstrate this.

Reference please?

I ask because I'm looking at a copy of the Commercial Pilot PTS from 2002 which was *definitely* in the complex-required era, and it says no such thing:

8. Touches down smoothly at minimum control airspeed (ASEL).​

9. Touches down at or within 100 feet (30 meters) beyond a specified point, with no side drift, minimum float and with the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway center/landing path.​

10. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the approach and landing sequence.​

11. Applies brakes (ASEL) or elevator control (ASES), as necessary, to stop in the shortest distance consistent with safety.​

And, from the AFH, there is similarly no such procedure:

Upon touchdown, the airplane is held in this positive pitch attitude as long as the elevators remain effective and if recommended by the manufacturer. This provides aerodynamic braking to assist in deceleration. However, immediately upon touchdown of the nose-wheel, maximum braking is applied to minimize the after-landing roll. For most airplanes, aerodynamic drag is the single biggest factor in slowing the aircraft in the first quarter of its speed decay. Brakes become increasingly effective as airspeed and lift decrease. The pilot increases braking effectiveness by holding the wheel or stick full back while smoothly applying brakes. Back pressure is needed because the airplane tends to lean forward with heavy braking. Best braking results are always achieved with the wheels in an “incipient skid condition.” That means a little more brake pressure would lock up the wheels entirely. In an incipient skid, the wheels are turning, but with great reluctance. If the wheels lock, braking effectiveness drops dramatically in a skid and the tires could be damaged. The airplane is normally stopped within the shortest possible distance consistent with safety and controllability. If the proper approach speed has been maintained, resulting in minimum float during the round out and the touchdown made at minimum control speed, excessive braking should not be needed.​

I've seen some people teach in airplanes with Johnson Bar flaps that you should retract the flaps for increased braking, but as noted above, for the first quarter of the deceleration, aerodynamic drag is the biggest factor. If you land with full flaps, by the time you're at 75% of your touchdown speed, the lift provided by those extended flaps is unlikely to be consequential enough to your wheel braking to justify raising them.

 

[davela]

I think the POH recommondations may come into play. In any event, it would be wise to explain to the examiner one way or the other before-hand which post-landing action one plans to take to reduce the roll-out. Regardless of check rides, I do not see a problem with retracting the flaps after landing as needed, if one is clear about the proper action to take, if it is necessary, and POH approved. Also, the gear and flap controls on some planes are very different, so confusion is unlikely (e.g. on Johnson bar Mooney's as you mention). Anyway, I did it on a 182RG and passed, PTS or not - LOL. I do it often on my Cherokee 140, to make an early turn-out if it helps, but of course, I'm aware I'm not in a retract. I'm also aware I'm paying for the brake maintenance on my 140 and flap retraction is free. If I owned a retract with confusable flap and gear levers, I would probably avoid flap retraction on roll-out like the plague.

I will try your idea of some coordinated back elevator action combined with braking sometime soon just to see how that works. Sounds like fun.

 

[davela]

Just looked at a POH for the R182 (1980 model year). The last step of the short field landing checklist says: "Wing Flaps - RETRACT for maximum brake effectiveness"

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think the POH recommondations may come into play.

Of course... With an asterisk, noted below.

Regardless of check rides, I do not see a problem with retracting the flaps after landing as needed, if one is clear about the proper action to take, if it is necessary, and POH approved. Also, the gear and flap controls on some planes are very different, so confusion is unlikely (e.g. on Johnson bar Mooney's as you mention).

Heh... I was talking about Johnson Bar *flaps*, like you have on your Cherokee. The older Mooneys have Johnson Bar *gear*. There have been accidents where someone used to the Pipers used that short field landing technique after getting in a Mooney, and whoops... Buhbye gear. Crunch.

Anyway, I did it on a 182RG and passed, PTS or not - LOL.

Heh... I did my Commercial in the R182 as well and passed, but I don't remember retracting flaps.

I'm also aware I'm paying for the brake maintenance on my 140 and flap retraction is free.

Flap retraction just puts more weight on the wheels, it doesn't do anything to save your brakes. I'm very aware of brake maintenance on my Mooney too, so I tend to avoid using them to the extent possible - I'll leave full flaps out, pop the speed brakes just after touchdown (which also puts more weight on the wheels!), and increase to full aft elevator as I very gently let the nose touch the ground... And then I'll just let it roll unless I need light braking to get off at a particular intersection. I only use the brakes more heavily for occasional short field practice or if ATC really wants me off at a particular intersection.

I will try your idea of some coordinated back elevator action combined with braking sometime soon just to see how that works. Sounds like fun.

It's definitely fun to master the technique. I started doing it after I heard it from Ron Levy who used to be on this board ages ago, but when I went looking in the AFH I see it's there too (in the quoted segment in my previous post), though they kind of break it up a little and don't explain it very well - Standard FAA procedure of course.

Just looked at a POH for the R182 (1980 model year). The last step of the short field landing checklist says: "Wing Flaps - RETRACT for maximum brake effectiveness"

I just looked and found the same for a fixed-gear 182S, and even the older 182Q that still had 40º flaps. I wonder if they bothered testing landing distance with and without flaps - I say that because those flaps are so slow you'd be stopped before they were all the way up I think, and you'd be lessening drag the whole time but the extra lift would mostly still be there. In fact, that's what Ron was talking about when he first mentioned the other technique, which seems to also be included in these POHs!

I wasn't surprised it's in the RG manual. Those tires are tiny, and VERY easy to skid. I was a little more surprised to see it in the fixed-gear manual, and even more surprised in the fixed gear manual for 40º flaps. I demand a recount.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think the dump flaps/don’t touch argument needs a bit of context. Dump flaps for short field is in a number of POH checklists as a way of transferring more weight to the wheels to enhance braking. Don't touch is primarily to create an SOP that helps to mitigate the chance of accidentally retracting the gear instead.

I think, if you are really going into a field so short that dumping flaps is going to make a difference and your SOP is never to touch, the fact that is is so different from your normal ops in multiple ways is going to highlight the differences in your mind and lower the likelihood of a mistake.

So far, I've been based at an airport with an 1800' runway and use a 1300' taxi turnoff at my home base as my target for a "short field" landing in recurrent training. So far, there's been no need to dump the flaps for either.

 

[flyingron]

Sometimes its bad training, sometimes it's just the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up. Owning a single-seat airplane means I'm renting a 172 or Cherokee for my BFRs...great fun when your normal plane has wildly different characteristics. One BFR, I was instructed to perform a departure stall. Went to full power, pulled the nose up so speed was gradually decreasing...only to get yelled at by the instructor: "Get the nose up higher, it'll never stall otherwise!"

I was once playing human balance on an stage check when then student tried to demonstrate a departure stall on takeoff. I heard the CFI death scream (the sound a CFI makes when he is immediate fear of death) trying to push forward against the student: "If you drop this thing on its tail, we'll all gonna die."

 

[flyingron]

I think the dump flaps/don’t touch argument needs a bit of context. Dump flaps for short field is in a number of POH checklists as a way of transferring more weight to the wheels to enhance braking. Don't touch is primarily to create an SOP that helps to mitigate the chance of accidentally retracting the gear instead.

On the later 172s with electric flaps, it doesn't do much. By the time the flaps come up, you've probably appreciably slowed the plane anyhow (same with my Navion's hydraulic flaps). Now the older johsnon-bar flaps you could do lots of fun things like dumping them to brake, and the short field takeoff of starting down the runway with them retraced, pop in 10 degrees to get off the ground, and then take them out to climb.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think the dump flaps/don’t touch argument needs a bit of context. Dump flaps for short field is in a number of POH checklists as a way of transferring more weight to the wheels to enhance braking.

I really wonder how effective this is. You lose the aero braking, but especially with electric flaps, by the time you eliminate the lift you're probably almost stopped anyway.

Someone with a 182 want to time how long flap retraction takes?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I really wonder how effective this is. You lose the aero braking, but especially with electric flaps, by the time you eliminate the lift you're probably almost stopped anyway

I tend to agree that electric flaps kind of removes any benefit. That aside, I also wonder whether it’s one of those things that may have been true for early aviation, and just hangs on.

 

[Mikey52]

It depends on the plane. In a DC-3, if you needed maximum braking, retracting the flaps did two things that helped. It reduced lift, and shifted the cg slightly aft. Those were the split flap configuration.

 

[luvflyin]

On the later 172s with electric flaps, it doesn't do much. By the time the flaps come up, you've probably appreciably slowed the plane anyhow (same with my Navion's hydraulic flaps). Now the older johsnon-bar flaps you could do lots of fun things like dumping them to brake, and the short field takeoff of starting down the runway with them retraced, pop in 10 degrees to get off the ground, and then take them out to climb.

A CFI taught me that on a rental checkout in an Arrow. Rotate and pull the handle at the same time. It’s kinda fun. No one had taught me that before and I had a lot of previous Arrow time with CFI’s. I’m wondering what other planes that works with. Mooney’s ??

 

[frfly172]

The July AOPA magazine has an article titled we have to get better at go arounds

 

[ionel]

A CFI taught me that on a rental checkout in an Arrow. Rotate and pull the handle at the same time. It’s kinda fun. No one had taught me that before and I had a lot of previous Arrow time with CFI’s. I’m wondering what other planes that works with. Mooney’s ??

What handle are you talking about?

 

[francisco collazos]

What handle are you talking about?

you don't want to know..

 

[SFDukie]

Know it's from a law firm, but this is a thoughtful writeup. https://www.aviationlawgroup.com/montgomery-gibbs-airport-cessna-crash-n734zk/

 

[luvflyin]

What handle are you talking about?

Flap

 

[ionel]

Flap

Why would you dump the flaps directly after rotate? You aren't even out of ground affect. You've prob got runway ahead to land on if engine sputters etc.

Mooney procedure rotate, once can't land ahead and good rate of climb retract gear, then stable climb and speed retract flaps.

 

[luvflyin]

Why would you dump the flaps directly after rotate? You aren't even out of ground affect. You've prob got runway ahead to land on if engine sputters etc.

Mooney procedure rotate, once can't land ahead and good rate of climb retract gear, then stable climb and speed retract flaps.

No. You don’t dump. You start the take off roll with no flaps. You don’t want that drag when accelerating to Vr. Then as you rotate you pull up one notch which gives you a steeper angle of climb.

 

[ionel]

No. You don’t dump. You start the take off roll with no flaps. You don’t want that drag when accelerating to Vr. Then as you rotate you pull up one notch which gives you a steeper angle of climb.

Yeah no.

 

[jesse]

i did thousands of go-arounds with students in 172s as an instructor. most of them were very simple and not difficult to get a good outcome with. others were a little more tricky:
- sometimes the student jams some object in the controls
- sometimes you try to go around, and you don't have nearly the power that you should.
- sometimes you try to go around, and the whole flap assembly turns itself into a crunched up pop-can that messes all the controls up.
- sometimes the student does something incredibly stupid, either faster, or stronger than you are capable of correcting for. as an example, i've personally observed a student try to figure out how to install the control lock before landing.


I imagine sometimes the instructor does something stupid too.

 

[Mooney Fan]

Pitch and power. Its a delicate dance.

 

[AV8R_87]

i've personally observed a student try to figure out how to install the control lock before landing.

 

[CENTURION]

“

He was told to stay ahead of the airplane, how hard did you slap him or HER.

 

[francisco collazos]

personally observed a student try to figure out how to install the control lock before landing.

Poor man's autopilot??

 

[Lindberg]

Yeah no.

Yeah yes.