Buying C-150 to train

As mentioned, your allocation is faulty. This item onlye comes up to:
= 3k




Again, you are rolling capital (the amount paid down on the loan) into expenses. At 7% interest, the actual interest expense is only going to be :
= $1610.

Right now probably a good assumption.

$60 tiedown: $720

For a 30k plane and student pilot, probably a bit less, $1200 or so.

And a more realistic scenario.

$14,930 = 74.65/hr

Probably prudent to add $15/hr maintenance/oil-changes/annual and you come out to $90/hr. For a plane that is :
- available whenever you want
- that you can leave somewhere overnight if the weather is iffy without having to worry about getting fined by the school

....a pretty good deal.

The reason you come out ahead over a rental plane is the stuff you dont pay for:
- The $5000+/year rental insurance with hull coverage
- The 100hr inspections
- the flight schools margin

You keep saying 'it can't be done, it can't be done, it can't be done' when there are plenty examples of people who have done it.

Mine was a year one model that didn't assume a 100% sale at the end of the year. That said, let's use your numbers $90 an hour.

Here's one for rent for $69 per hour:

http://www.teachmetofly.com/ContentPage.aspx?ID=1472

Here's one for $90

http://www.flyekx.com/flight_services/aircraft_rental/

Here's one for $90/$86 (block)

http://www.kellysaviation.com/Rates2.htm

Once again where is the advantage? The OP still has to come up with the cash to get the aircraft vs. paying as he goes. Still has to get a loan. Still has to pay for any gotchas. Also, has to try and sell an aircraft for 100% of his purchase price.

It can be done and has been done. Some peoples situation is such that they just want to train in their own aircraft regardless. It doesn't make it an investment, and that's what the OP asked about.
 
Hello this is my first post here. I'm currious what your thoughts are on buying a C-150 vs renting are? My thinking is not only will I have the resale/investment factor to get some money back eventually, but also an aircraft to vacation and teach other students in creating some revenue.

Thanks,Isaac


Lets review

You are in colorado springs (6,000 ish feet) high altitude to base a cessna 150.

You wanna be able to flight instruct in it for additional revenue. That's a problem because many of your students will not be able to fly with you in this airplane for weight reasons. On top of that It WILL be so doggy on a May thru September day, that they will not rent your newly purchased Cessna 150, cutting this revenue stream tremendously.

Vacationing - See the above. With two people there is not enough usefull load left to take much in baggage with you.


Resale value/investment - There is an ADS-B mandate coming in 2020 that will cost around $5k to install. The resale market is already depressed on top of the # of aging aircraft owners that will be selling, parhaps the same time you wanna sell. Aircraft are a risky investment no matter what smoke and mirrors someone wants to dazzle you with.

Lease back option - Most people go flying with a buddy. Again, on those warm days a pilot and his friend will not rent your 150, they want more power and something that will climb morethan 200 feet per minute.
 
So, in closing, buy the Bonanza, it's the plane you'll want anyway... ;)
 

It is entirely irrelevant how much a plane rents for in Arizona, Florida or some backwoods place in Texas. It matters whether such a plane is not only theoretically but also practically available at ones home field.

Once again where is the advantage?

As it has been pointed out: It's your plane. You can fly it whenever you want the moment your instructor signs you off for solo cross countries. It's called freedom.

I don't calculate the cost of golf on a 'per hole' basis and the cost of skiing on a 'per vertical foot'. I have friends with boats, none of them knows or cares to know what he he paid per mile sailed last year. Maybe they know what they spent over the course of the year, but even that would be pushing it.
 
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It is entirely irrelevant how much a plane rents for in Arizona, Florida or some backwoods place in Texas. It matters whether such a plane is not only theoretically but also practically available at ones home field.



As it has been pointed out: It's your plane. You can fly it whenever you want the moment your instructor signs you off for solo cross countries. It's called freedom.

I don't calculate the cost of golf on a 'per hole' basis and the cost of skiing on a 'per vertical foot'. I have friends with boats, none of them knows or cares to know what he he paid per mile sailed last year. Maybe they know what they spent over the course of the year, but even that would be pushing it.

I can't find a 150 for rent in Colorado Springs, probably for a real good reason. Here is a 172 for $110.

http://proavflightservice.com/flight-training/rental-aircraft/

There isn't a lot more to say, you recommend the OP go into debt to finance a 150 that he believes will be an investment. OK.
 
There isn't a lot more to say, you recommend the OP go into debt to finance a 150 that he believes will be an investment. OK.

No, I recommend he buy a basic IFR capable Cherokee 180 which will probably serve his stated goals better over the course of the next couple of years than the C150.
With the exception of the 10-20 hrs of complex rental for the commercial and the CFI ride, this plane will get him all the way to the CFI rating if he so desires.
At that point, he can throw commercial insurance on it, lease a cubby at one of the charter operators and start his one-man flight school on the side. Sure, he won't get rich with that side business, but to go 'work' at the airport is as good as any excuse for being an airport bum.
 
This is all great info. I'm loving it all the good the bad and the ugly its all very informative because if one Guy says something profoundly wrong another Guy is more than happy to not only call him on it but also provide a logical reason or even real life examples as to what is more realistic.

I have to be honest I still don't know what's best for my situation, but my gears are turning and I'm only reconsidering the aircraft I choose as I can't even imagine throwing $50,000 towards rentals that ill never even have the chance to get back.
 
I have to be honest I still don't know what's best for my situation, but my gears are turning and I'm only reconsidering the aircraft I choose as I can't even imagine throwing $50,000 towards rentals that ill never even have the chance to get back.

What is probably the most reasonable approach is to rent a plane for your pre-solo instruction. Once you decide that flying is for you, buy the plane you want to own for the next couple of years and finish your training in it.

Dont you have the air-force academy in town ? They initially started out with Diamond DA20s for the initial flight screening program. They found out that the 100hp DA20s didn't have enough oompf to be useable at the density altitudes common in Colorado Springs and replaced them with leased DA40s (180hp) and I believe now Cirrus SR20 (200hp).
 
Buy a plane, we're talking dollar amounts that are less than a new SUV.
 
[/QUOTE]Dont you have the air-force academy in town ? They initially started out with Diamond DA20s for the initial flight screening program. They found out that the 100hp DA20s didn't have enough oompf to be useable at the density altitudes common in Colorado Springs and replaced them with leased DA40s (180hp) and I believe now Cirrus SR20 (200hp).[/QUOTE]

Yes, I've looked into it and they do offer training to base contractors and I've done a few jobs on Peterson AFB. I have no idea if I qualify but it could be worth a shot as I know they do offer seriously discounted training.

I'm starting to see that I'd probably be better off with at least 150 HP.
 
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I really like the looks of 150 taildraggers but I was turned off years ago when I found out they ground handled like crap.

From another forum:

We had a 69 150 with the texas taildragger conversion and nobody here cared for it. The 140 that we had had much better ground handling characteristics.. The original gear legs were to soft to handle the extra weight. It would probably have been ok with 140 or 170 gear legs. I got my first 10 hours of training for my private in it but my brother was a high time ag-pilot at the time and didn't care for it that much either.

There are a lot of 180 conversions of Cessna 172's in the Springs/Denver area. I would not buy anything under 4 seats and 145/150 horse. Good luck with your hunt.
 
The issue I have seen with the Texas Taildragger I dealt with was that it didn't have any toe out, it actually had some toe in.
 
Anyone who owns an airplane will tell you that you shouldn't buy an airplane because it's financially smarter. It's not.
 
Oh I am in no way thrilled about the fact that my FBO's 150 is a taildragger, except the taildragger experience maybe. I'm drawn to the 150 for its ease of use and don't understand why someone would make the conversion other than losing the drag from the nose wheel?
 
A 172 being nearly the same in purchase price and in fixed costs it just makes sense. Then factor in the altitude of of the Denver metro and it makes even more sense. Then factor in leaseback it makes even more sense.

If renting 150/152 is only $5/hour cheaper than a 172, I'm taking the 172. It's more flexible and more appealing to renters. Also it's gonna be easier to sell because of all the said factors. Everyone sells the 150/152 for 2 reasons. #1 lack of room to grow and #2 lack of performance, especially hot & high.


IMHO Forget the 150/152, let the folks under 3,000 feet elevation keep them.



Say you do buy the 150 or 152, are you aware of the upcoming ADS-B mandate that will cost you north of $4k by 2020? :dunno:

A similar 172 is going to be at least double the initial purchase cost of it's 150/152 counter part, it's also going to burn about 75% more fuel per hour, annuals and insurance will both be more expensive. 2 seats and 50HP+ isn't free. and for PPL you look at fuel by the hour, not mile. If I'm renting a plane for my ticket, I'm taking the cheaper one, not to mention I personally think a Cessna 150 is a MUCH better primary trainer than a 172/Cherokee. If I'm flying in Denver with a CFI, we're taking the 150. Learn to safely operate a 150 in the mountains (and it's not a problem to do so), you won't be on this forum asking about density altitude in Florida.
 
Yes, I've looked into it and they do offer training to base contractors and I've done a few jobs on Peterson AFB. I have no idea if I qualify but it could be worth a shot as I know they do offer seriously discounted training.

I'm starting to see that I'd probably be better off with at least 150 HP.

I mentioned the AF as an illustration that a 100hp two-seater may not be sufficient in your location. If you could get training through an AF flying club it could be a good option.

One other thing: Aircraft have some fixed cost and sit around 97% of the time. Partnershipss can be a great way to get good availability at very limited monthly expenses. Two of my partners have CFI ratings and one is an A&P, makes it pretty easy to ssettle currency or maintenance issues. Look around at the airport, if you can buy into an existing partnersship with a 180hp plane, you would get a capable plane at less than a 150 would be in sole ownership.
 
A similar 172 is going to be at least double the initial purchase cost of it's 150/152 counter part, it's also going to burn about 75% more fuel per hour, annuals and insurance will both be more expensive. 2 seats and 50HP+ isn't free. and for PPL you look at fuel by the hour, not mile. If I'm renting a plane for my ticket, I'm taking the cheaper one, not to mention I personally think a Cessna 150 is a MUCH better primary trainer than a 172/Cherokee. If I'm flying in Denver with a CFI, we're taking the 150. Learn to safely operate a 150 in the mountains (and it's not a problem to do so), you won't be on this forum asking about density altitude in Florida.

True, except for your cross countries, that's why I used a 172RG, a 182 and an Arrow for those so I could get my Complex and HP endorsements done as well as the checkouts in those planes for later use. It also freed up the time saved for other practice and didn't cost much extra due to the extra speed vs rental premium.
 
It's not crazy to buy a C-150 or PA-28 for your training.

As others have said, it is impossible to overstate the huge advantage that comes with having the same plane you flew last time, available whenever you are, and not trashed out.

With your own plane you can use the CFI of your choice, not just one of the ever changing roster of 200 hour wonders at the FBO.

It is crazy to say 'buy your last plane first'. As a pre-PPL student you have no idea what your 'last plane' might be. You have no real idea of what it's like to own a plane in your area. You have no idea of what traits your 'last plane' might be. You just don't know enough yet.

Get your PPL, rent some planes, ride with friends. After awhile you'll know what you last plane should be.

Buying any small plane should not be considered an 'investment'. Something like that C150 with a 286 hour engine that was posted above is not going to depreciate much below the $20K the guy is asking.

On the other hand, that 286 hour engine might throw a rod, or you might land so hard as to rip a gear leg off (that would be pretty darn hard in C150). The next annual might cost $10K. None of that is likely, but all of it is possible.

Worst case: You part out the C150 out and move on.

Most probable case: you sell the C-150 for close to what you paid for it, you've saved thousands in rental fees, and most importantly, had a much more enjoyable experience. And you know enough to make a sensible 'last plane' purchase.

Oh, and if you have even one partner then you cut the financial risk in half.
 
What about all the rental costs? Is that smart?

Your very focused on rental cost, how about flipping the question.

How many of the pilots have responded saying they have a fleet of rental aircraft or even one in a rental pool of some kind?

We all love aviation. If we could fly for free and make money owning an aircraft we'd surely all be doing it. There are plenty here with the money to write a check for one so they wouldn't even have the loan issue. Something to consider.
 
True, except for your cross countries, that's why I used a 172RG, a 182 and an Arrow for those so I could get my Complex and HP endorsements done as well as the checkouts in those planes for later use. It also freed up the time saved for other practice and didn't cost much extra due to the extra speed vs rental premium.

It's been a while since I looked but IIRC, the FAA cross country requirements are mostly written in hours, some are referred to with minimal distance requirements, all of which can be met in a Cessna 150 without renting it extra hours just to get the distance. I believe the FAA requires ~5 hour cross country time and specifies that one of em' has to be 100nm and the other hast to be 150nm. That gives 5hours to get 250nm in, a C-150 is slow, but it ain't that slow.
 
I understand its not fly for free, I guess my main question is doesn't owning a trainer have many more advantages saving money building hundreds of hours up to CFI being one of them? Yes that's assuming all goes well.
 
I understand its not fly for free, I guess my main question is doesn't owning a trainer have many more advantages saving money building hundreds of hours up to CFI being one of them? Yes that's assuming all goes well.

If you think hundreds of hours in a 150 is worthwhile experience, go for it. Personally I wouldn't hire an instructor who only had several hundred hours in a 150, but most new students won't have that figured out yet, plus you'll have a 150 to give primary instruction in, and even instrument instruction if properly equipped.
 
Sorry I over reacted and was a bit harsh. Please take no offense.:)

I do think you can get a decent mid time Cherokee IFR (no necessarily G430 but possible) for a great deal less than $30k I would assume $16-20k real money offered and accepted not asking price on TAP or BS.

I won't talk about finance as that is different for each of us, I paid cash for my plane but perhaps he has an uncle who would like to help out. If I didn't have the money I would still borrow and then lease it out to help with payments.

My costs were lower than most folks because I live in the air cap and can get every accessories rebuilt for under $200. I also burn mogas for half the cost of fuel. In many states there is no sales tax for aviation. Kansas is one of them. Not only that but there is no property tax on a/c older than 30 years old which a $20k Cherokee falls into.

My costs

$20k to buy
$485 insurance on $20k
no taxes
free tie down
mo gas at $3.15 today at 8 gph.
Average total annual and maintenance costs over 11 years worked out to a flat $10 per flight hour flown including many improvements.

Pre buy I would recommend a few things to keep costs down:
1. Pay $599 and attend the savvy aviator seminar asap before buying a plane.
2. Join Piper.org or Cherokee.org
3. learn all ad's on Cherokees (if that is the chosen plane)
4. (probably fly one to make sure you like them first)
Then you can do the preselection yourself without hiring A&P to go look at same until you are roughly sure you like it, priced right and then negotiate based on complete annual inspection included in the sales price.
I bought my plane with the seller paying for Annual inspection and I did not have to buy it until I spoke to the AI who did the annual afterwards and was completely happy with his report.
5. I would shop locally only for a time while I learned airplanes and got better at negotiating....could be you buy one right down the road save bunch of money flying across the country.
6....If I did go fly to see a plane that would come out of my training with cfi in a training Cherokee budget not necessarily added on to the cost of the airplane.
7. It cost about $80-160 to go online with most states and fill an LLC or Corp to own the airplane it is very simple and you do not need a lawyer nor accountant to do this for you. I bought my second plane in a LLC. The first plane I just bought personally. But that is another decision that has little to do with ownership so I am not sure that is even pertinent to this conversation. Getting a loan the bank might not want you to set this up. I didn't allocate as single penny to buying my first airplane. I found it on the airport 18 miles from my house after a 6 month search. So I do not think you need $2k budget for this on a trainer. Tie downs in KS are free but hangars are $120....different for every geography.

My flying worked out to $50 per hour all in for 11 years of good times....
I was careful but not necessarily any smarter than most of the other folks on this board who have bought airplanes.

how about the things i saved by owning an airplane? My cfi charged $12 per hour but took flight time in the plane on trade. It cost me next to nothing to let him fly 10 hrs in my plane in exchange for the 30 hrs or so I got duel/ground.

Also the many trips I took and made great friends flying to Sun N Fun 8 days, or California aopa.....all these trips would not be possible in rental a/c as I would have had to guarantee 40 hrs flight time to do the trip that only required 20 hrs.

In my view you greatly exaggerated the costs and undervalued the benefits.

Also there is a savings from flying 3-5 times a week which is seldom possible in a flight school for schedule reasons. Also savings learning in one airplane rather than one of 5 a/c going in and out of maintenance for 100 hrs inspections.

What about the additional safety of owning your own plane and having that little extra maintenance performed to make you feel warm and fuzzy....I have seen some fly school stuff and I cannot say they ever made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
 
I understand its not fly for free, I guess my main question is doesn't owning a trainer have many more advantages saving money building hundreds of hours up to CFI being one of them? Yes that's assuming all goes well.

IN all fairness it is like buying a used car. Nothing magic. Take your time.

However I got my license in under 45 days because I could schedule flights every day and cancel only on wx days or things that couldn't be changed. That doesn't happen in most flight schools. So you are likely to get your ppl within 50 hrs rather than some who take 1-2 years and 120 hrs before they take their ppl.... Its all about the time between trainings and how much you forgot.

Then once I had my ppl my first xcountry was 23 hrs or so flying out to California for 10 day vacation, while I was there I flew to Catalina Island, Big Bear, San Diego, LaQuinta, Palm Springs, Thermal back through Phoenix up to Sedona, over Crater, AZ, back through ABQ, Tuccumcari and into Wichita. About 30 days more of local flying and I went to the other coast another 22-24 hrs to Miami, Key West, Orlando, Tampa, Lakeland, Dothan Alabama, Meridian Mississippi and back to Wichita. In less than one year of flying I had more real cross country than most of the time building young, CFIs that I took lessons from (unless they got their jet job). I likely couldn't have done that in a rental craft.
 
The 150 at my FBO rents dual only @ around 120 per hour cash 140 credit. $60 per hour may make me think differently.
 
This is all good information, thanks to all for the input. I've tried crunching numbers but just don't know enough to come up with a realistic conclusion.
 
The 150 at my FBO rents dual only @ around 120 per hour cash 140 credit. $60 per hour may make me think differently.

Hey... don't some of the 150 taildragger conversions also frequently come with an engine upgrade also?

It could explain the higher rental rate and the reason this plane is even serviceable at a 6000 foot elevation airport.

You ought to ask the owner about that...
 
How many of the pilots have responded saying they have a fleet of rental aircraft or even one in a rental pool of some kind?
.

I know three people who do this as a business, one of them has 8 planes with different flight schools, the other one about 5. If structured right, you can make a couple of $$. As for risk: The best day for his business was the day someone wrecked his glass-panel warrior.
 
The 150 at my FBO rents dual only @ around 120 per hour cash 140 credit. $60 per hour may make me think differently.

Rental insurance on taildraggers for students to go solo is pretty much cost prohibitive. Even without the solo, it is higher than insurance on tricycles. I have flown a Texas taildragger only once, they are known to be a bit squirrely, (depending on the quality of the individual conversion). It didn't seem squirrely to me, but it was a day with wind down the runway on a grass strip.
 
Hey... don't some of the 150 taildragger conversions also frequently come with an engine upgrade also?

It could explain the higher rental rate and the reason this plane is even serviceable at a 6000 foot elevation airport.

You ought to ask the owner about that...

The 150/150 with the O-320 is a completely separate STC. There used to be a turboed 150 that was based at Leadville, but I think it was done on a field approval.
 
Hey... don't some of the 150 taildragger conversions also frequently come with an engine upgrade also?

It could explain the higher rental rate and the reason this plane is even serviceable at a 6000 foot elevation airport.

You ought to ask the owner about that...

No they don't.

Also, if they do have a lycoming o320 under the hood, it eats about 30 pounds of the usefull load. Extreemly valuable usefull load I might add. In fact, the early straight tail 150's that are converted to the 150 horse O-320 are legally a one place airplane after, sporting a placard "solo flight only" on the instrument panel.

It looks to me the rental fee for the 150 @ $140/hour includes the CFI?

If so, that's why. There is a 150 here for $80 and a 152 for $85. The cheapest CFI that I'm aware of is $40.


What do you want to spend? Up to $30k will buy a 172 and some will be IFR equipped with older radios. Just keep in mind that by 2020 most of the VOR's will be decomissioned and the ADS-B mandate will take place.
 
I looked again the 150 at my FBO is 160hp and cost for credit is $125 not $140. I'm going to find a 100hp 150 owner in the area and pick his brain and see if I can't take a flight before I do anything. I'm very new to the world of aviation and realizing renting a few and joining a club may very well be my first plan of action.
 
And there is one BIG reason to consider renting for your private, most folks don't know enough yet to make a wise selection. For that reason I recommend against purchasing until you have held the private for a year or two for MOST people.

However the information is out there (forums like this are a good place to look) to enable a non pilot to make a wise choice.

I know three pilots who purchased to learn, two did OK financially after selling the plane (one to stop flying, the other is now on his second Bo{Henning is probably on to something}) the other guy is getting ready to sell (unsure of his reasoning) but he is going to get hosed due to lack of a proper prebuy.


For data points the planes that did ok were a DA20-C1 and a PA28-180. The not so good was a 28-140 that had been neglected.
 
I bought a 150 for training, and it worked out well. Every time I tried to rent an aircraft the damn thing was broken. The 150 worked out quite well.
 
Hey... don't some of the 150 taildragger conversions also frequently come with an engine upgrade also?

It could explain the higher rental rate and the reason this plane is even serviceable at a 6000 foot elevation airport.

You ought to ask the owner about that...

Pilot's Choice at KGTU had a C150 tail dragger for a few weeks on lease. It had a pretty red paint job.

It made at least four or five flights before it was destroyed in a ground loop.

Having flown a few types of tail draggers, my impression is that each and every one had a very powerful rudder. That's why they make such good primary trainers.

If I recall correctly the C-150 rudder does almost nothing, just the bare minimum needed to drive it up and drive it down.

I just don't see how a C-150 can be safely flown as a tail dragger in anything but the most benign conditions by a very experienced tail wheel pilot.

Please correct me if you've flown one and know better than me.
 
I know three pilots who purchased to learn, two did OK financially after selling the plane (one to stop flying, the other is now on his second Bo{Henning is probably on to something}) the other guy is getting ready to sell (unsure of his reasoning) but he is going to get hosed due to lack of a proper prebuy.


For data points the planes that did ok were a DA20-C1 and a PA28-180. The not so good was a 28-140 that had been neglected.

I dont think that experience is unique to a student pilot purchasing a trainer. The only difference is that the numbers get bigger once folks get into high performance retracts or twins. There is only so much money you can lose on a neglected 20k Cherokee, there is seemingly no limit on how much money you can lose on a neglected C340 :hairraise: .
 
I bought a 150 for training, and it worked out well. Every time I tried to rent an aircraft the damn thing was broken. The 150 worked out quite well.


And what was your home base altitued?

The OP is Colorado Spring Colorado, where the field elevation is 6,800 feet. Density altitude on hot days can come within a few thousand feet of a Cessna 150's service ceiling. Say you takoff from Colorado Springs on a hot day with two about and 2 hours of gas a Cessna 150 will STRUGGLE to make 1000 feet above ground.


For flight instruction ur gonna spend 10 - 15 minutes just to climb to a safe altitude to perform manuvers, wasting time in the climb is expensive. Cessna 150 don't have an oil cooler either so up there a cesna 150 might not do well oil temperature wise on that hot day were the density altitued at 2,000 feet AGL is only 2,000 feet under the service ceiling of the airplane.

For his altitude and mission the Cessna 150 is not a good fit. If he lived at a lower elevation, then I'd say go for it.


A 200 feet per minute climb probably wouldn't get over rising terrian around the airports out there.
 
Pilot's Choice at KGTU had a C150 tail dragger for a few weeks on lease. It had a pretty red paint job.

It made at least four or five flights before it was destroyed in a ground loop.

Having flown a few types of tail draggers, my impression is that each and every one had a very powerful rudder. That's why they make such good primary trainers.

If I recall correctly the C-150 rudder does almost nothing, just the bare minimum needed to drive it up and drive it down.

I just don't see how a C-150 can be safely flown as a tail dragger in anything but the most benign conditions by a very experienced tail wheel pilot.

Please correct me if you've flown one and know better than me.

You would be wrong about the rudder authority. Its authority is no different than any other SE Cessna design.


The taildrragger ground handling issues from using the main gears just moved forward. They don't have the right toe angles and sit differently and aren't loaded quite the same.
 
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