Buying C-150 to train

[Geico266]

My favorite pilot saying, "There are two kinds of pilots those that have had bad landings and those that lie about it".

Nice that you cut out the part where I said I had bad landings. Never had a bad landing in a rental plane. Reading comprehension not your strong point?

However, some of my landings when I first flew were "less than perfect" requiring only minor........, okay major repair.

 

[Alexb2000]

Nice that you cut out the part where I said I had bad landings. Never had a bad landing in a rental plane.

I was just having some fun, no offense intended. I took that to mean you only had bad landings in an ultralight. Regardless we've all had them one way or another.

 

[Geico266]

Buying an airplane to get your ratings in is CRAZY. Sure there are examples of people that bought a little gem and never had to spend a dime on it and then sold it for what they paid for it. However, there are many more out there that got burned.

Why is buying a plane to train in "crazy" ?

You have the plane available all of the time, no one leaving trash and pop cans in it. Gauges and radios set exactly where you left them. Money is only one consideration.

 

[Henning]

My favorite pilot saying, "There are two kinds of pilots those that have had bad landings and those that lie about it".

You have to work pretty hard to have a bad landing in a Bonanza, and even then you likely won't break anything. We used to fly them into some rough strips in the Australian outback and they just took it with aplomb.

 

[Witmo]

While technically correct, I believe his words were "to create some revenue", which to me speaks of a commercial operation which would then entail 100 hour inspections. You can certainly let anyone use your plane and share expenses however you wish and not incur that expense, but that wasn't what I heard him say.

You can rent out a privately owned aircraft and make as much money/revenue as the market will bear--no 100 hour inspection required unless it's rented out for instruction. Look up the reg. If you "hold out" and provide both the plane and pilot for air transportation, the aircraft needs a 100 hour. Provide just the plane to a private pilot or higher, no 100 hour, and you can make as much money as he's willing to pay. Insurance varies but is a separate issue.

 

[Alexb2000]

Why is buying a plane to train in "crazy" ?

If you want the plane that's one thing. For example I've always wanted a Cub and I bought one, now I'll learn to fly in it.

That is different than someone buying a plane they really don't want and intend to sell as soon as they complete training. This is purely an attempt to save money and/or always have a plane available to train in. Neither of which work out that way very often. Cessna 150/152's almost always fall into this category and thus become part of the musical chairs game for major repairs.

 

[Alexb2000]

You have to work pretty hard to have a bad landing in a Bonanza, and even then you likely won't break anything. We used to fly them into some rough strips in the Australian outback and they just took it with aplomb.

No question Bo's are tough and land great. We're talking about primary students though.

 

[Henning]

You can rent out a privately owned aircraft and make as much money/revenue as the market will bear--no 100 hour inspection required unless it's rented out for instruction. Look up the reg. If you "hold out" and provide both the plane and pilot for air transportation, the aircraft needs a 100 hour. Provide just the plane to a private pilot or higher, no 100 hour, and you can make as much money as he's willing to pay. Insurance varies but is a separate issue.

Typically you get 5 people on a standard insurance policy at no additional premium.

 

[Henning]

No question Bo's are tough and land great. We're talking about primary students though.

Me too, nothing about a Bo goes against putting a primary student in it. It lands at about the same speed as a 172 only nicer. The advantage to doing your primary in it is you'll be half way to minimum insurance rates by the time you finish a PPL. You can slow down a Bo to 152 speed if you like and it will be more efficient than a 152. You'll never speed up a 152 to Bo speeds.

 

[poadeleted21]

Your missing the point. A Cessna 150/152 at 5,000 + elevation in Colorado will be a one person airplane for over 50% of the flying season. And the rental cost of the 150/152 wouldn't be cheap enough to offset the cost vs renting a 172 or Cherokee.

I don't see the logic.

150 taildraggers sure look neat but from what I've heard are squirlly.

Keep in mind Issac when you go fly a Cessna 150 it will perform ok with the current temperatures this time of year, but when it warms up and density altitudes climb to 7,800 feet on a 75 degree day, it's only going to have about 50 horsepower total on takeoff.

I guess I'll turn my PPL in, and have my wife turn in her solo endorsement. We flew a cessna 150 out of a 4000' plus airport to get em, frequently flew to 6-7,000' airports in it. I guess we were too dumb to know it couldn't be done.

99.99% of my flying has been in the Rockies, about half of that in a cessna 150, the rest in a 150hp cherokee

 

[Henning]

I guess I'll turn my PPL in, and have my wife turn in her solo endorsement. We flew a cessna 150 out of a 4000' plus airport to get em, frequently flew to 6-7,000' airports in it. I guess we were too dumb to know it couldn't be done.

99.99% of my flying has been in the Rockies, about half of that in a cessna 150, the rest in a 150hp cherokee

Yet now you own a Bonanza...

 

[poadeleted21]

Flew in Tahoe for 6 years and not an idiot. The last 150 I heard of that went up there in the summer augured in.....GREAT (last) experience for him...
I don't think I'd take lessons from a CFI that flies a marginal aircraft out of 7000'. Not all CFIs are safe, just look at the record of crashed planes with CFIs on board. Now, there is a 150 at our field that would do just fine up there, but it has an O-320 with over 160 HP.....

Awful lot of assumptions.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pskW4V4Mp3A

 

[Alexb2000]

Me too, nothing about a Bo goes against putting a primary student in it. It lands at about the same speed as a 172 only nicer. The advantage to doing your primary in it is you'll be half way to minimum insurance rates by the time you finish a PPL. You can slow down a Bo to 152 speed if you like and it will be more efficient than a 152. You'll never speed up a 152 to Bo speeds.

I don't think landing speed is the issue, although slowing it down will be. It's a HP Complex aircraft, that means a lot more is going on for a new student to deal with.

I watched some program about a Saudi Prince learning to fly in a Citation. So I guess nothing's impossible, but I wouldn't want to be that CFI. Especially with the treat of a beheading if the Prince fails his checkride or crashes.

 

[Henning]

As long as there is enough runway and clearway beyond, most airports you can get into, you can get out of. I've flown 150s into Big Bear in the summer without undue safety concerns but I had a big lake at the end of the runway and only had to clear the dam at the other end. By turning and skirting the shore on my way out, I mitigated the risks involved. OTOH, flying out of there in my turboed Travelair was a much simpler proposition. Flying out of Alamosa in the summer in an Arrow however took a couple turns around the valley to get out.

 

[Sleepingsquirrel]

You might have better luck buying a dog to train.

 

[poadeleted21]

Yet now you own a Bonanza...

And fly out of a 48' airport.

My mission changed to needing to make 400nm and 500nm trips once or twice a month. A cessna 150 is a fine trainer for his mission at his airport, he won't be the idiot trying to get through an 11000' ft pass in high winds.

 

[Henning]

And fly out of a 48' airport.

My mission changed to needing to make 400nm and 500nm trips once or twice a month. A cessna 150 is a fine trainer for his mission at his airport, he won't be the idiot trying to get through an 11000' ft pass in high winds.

My point is if you have a mission for more than a 150, you may as well start with the plane for your mission. Whatever extra time you may spend training in it counts directly to the 100hrs to minimum insurance rates, and insurance companies like seeing you train and taking your check ride in the plane you intend to use going forward. I bought a Travelair (basically a Bonanza with 2-O 360s) with 60hrs TT and no multi rating with the stipulation that I get my multi rating in that plane and do 25hrs dual. I got my first year insurance for $1100. Amazed my insurance guy so much he checked what it would cost to insure me in a Bo and he said "I couldn't get it done for twice that." If you have too much fixed gear time when you go complex, they ding you on your first year insurance even higher. There is a lot to safety and primacy in training and the insurance companies know it.

 

[Skylane81E]

Will a 150 work?
Sure, would I recommend one?
Not given the price of a Cherokee 140 these days! I'd buy the nicest condition 140 I could find with the worst paint.

 

[Henning]

Will a 150 work?
Sure, would I recommend one?
Not given the price of a Cherokee 140 these days! I'd buy the nicest condition 140 I could find with the worst paint.

How is a Cherokee 140 a step up from a Cessna 150?

 

[Skylane81E]

More power and more seats = more options. I've flown 140s with and with out the 160 conversion. Both were a big sep up from a 150. I would classify them between a 150 and a 172, being closer to the 172.

No it's not a bonanza

 

[poadeleted21]

My point is if you have a mission for more than a 150, you may as well start with the plane for your mission. Whatever extra time you may spend training in it counts directly to the 100hrs to minimum insurance rates, and insurance companies like seeing you train and taking your check ride in the plane you intend to use going forward. I bought a Travelair (basically a Bonanza with 2-O 360s) with 60hrs TT and no multi rating with the stipulation that I get my multi rating in that plane and do 25hrs dual. I got my first year insurance for $1100. Amazed my insurance guy so much he checked what it would cost to insure me in a Bo and he said "I couldn't get it done for twice that." If you have too much fixed gear time when you go complex, they ding you on your first year insurance even higher. There is a lot to safety and primacy in training and the insurance companies know it.

With more than triple the hull value of my Cherokee, 0 complex, 0 HP and 0 time in type, my insurance went up $500 per year. I.e I spent 10 times that amount on the Bonanza by the time it was in my hangar the first night. I'm sure the expense for hull insurance costs is more drastic when dealing with $750k airplanes.

I would probably have done my primary training in the Bo if I had known then that id be where I'm at today, insurance costs wouldn't be on the long list of reasons why though.

 

[Henning]

With more than triple the hull value of my Cherokee, 0 complex, 0 HP and 0 time in type, my insurance went up $500 per year. I.e I spent 10 times that amount on the Bonanza by the time it was in my hangar the first night. I'm sure the expense for hull insurance costs is more drastic when dealing with $750k airplanes.

I would probably have done my primary training in the Bo if I had known then that id be where I'm at today, insurance costs wouldn't be on the long list of reasons why though.

Insurance costs are set by actuaries who are freakin smart. You can tell a lot about your level of risk by looking at what they set premiums at.

 

[wickedsprint]

The Navy has been using the T34C to train primary students since the 70s.

It's basically tandem seated bonanza with a 550 hp PT6 Turboshaft.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

.....I will be blunt.

We each have our own risk tolerance. I think buying a inexpensive trainer is only slightly more risk than buying a used SUV.

The only thing for sure is that if you want to be commercial pilot heading towards 250 hrs in rental aircraft is that you wallet is going to be about $50k lighter when you get done and that is not a risk that is absolutely for sure.

Buying an airplane to get your ratings in is CRAZY. Sure there are examples of people that bought a little gem and never had to spend a dime on it and then sold it for what they paid for it. However, there are many more out there that got burned.

Oh yeay? Name one? There are several of us who have already said we learned in our own aircraft. Henning probably knows a dozen more personally. So why don't you name one person who lost his ass buying a simple trainer?

I am going to get some popped corn, be right back.

First thing to keep in mind everyone else has had the same idea

Everyone wants to own their own business, hope to be rich but those who never do.

... so it becomes a game of trying not to be the one caught with a large repair bill.

regardless of the reason buying an airplane or a boat or any expensive toy or a house there is a one time risk of buying a lemon. But buying a basic trainer is much easier and you can manage that risk by getting help, reading books how to buy an airplane, hiring a consultant, getting a thorough prebuy or Annual with purchase, picking a model joining the type club and then learning every AD that is on that model before buying one, so that you are the expert in that aircraft...It is no accident that some of these guys who are not mechanics per se are type experts...they make it their business to know.

Second, you have one aircraft, if it goes down you stop training.

Compared to the delays every week of scheduling a flight school plane.....

How about an unexpected $20K motor job that takes 3 months to complete? Are you ready for that?

This happens to idiots. You got to be a real nimrod for this to happen. An engine doesn't turn to **** over night. You ever hear of boroscope? Oil analysis? Pulling a jug off to look at the bottom end? But this is one reason I recommend buying a high time engine and flying it until it goes down. Then it is not unexpected when it happens and you didn't pay for that engine in an overly inflated priced airplane thinking you had 1700 more hours on it. LIKE I said buy a book How to buy airplanes.

Third, I have never meet one pilot who didn't have some landings in training where they were SOOOOOO glad to hand the keys back to the FBO and walk away.

I got one word: trainer; trainer; trainer; trainer; trainer; trainer. They are built to take it.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

If you want the plane that's one thing. For example I've always wanted a Cub and I bought one, now I'll learn to fly in it.

That is different than someone buying a plane they really don't want and intend to sell as soon as they complete training. This is purely an attempt to save money and/or always have a plane available to train in. Neither of which work out that way very often. Cessna 150/152's almost always fall into this category and thus become part of the musical chairs game for major repairs.

OK, you are making more sense here.

 

[LDJones]

You can rent out a privately owned aircraft and make as much money/revenue as the market will bear--no 100 hour inspection required unless it's rented out for instruction. Look up the reg. If you "hold out" and provide both the plane and pilot for air transportation, the aircraft needs a 100 hour. Provide just the plane to a private pilot or higher, no 100 hour, and you can make as much money as he's willing to pay. Insurance varies but is a separate issue.

He specifically mentioned renting it out for instruction, hence no need to look up the reg. Just reread original post before heading out on tangents.

 

[Theboys]

So...are we recommending he keep searching for a cessna 150 to buy and fly, or......

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

How is a Cherokee 140 a step up from a Cessna 150?

933# useful load
burns mogas
carrys fat guys like me and an instructor and my son and gas
has 5 hrs 50 minutes fuel capacity plus 633 lbs of payload
can take a 3rd person easy
can take 2+2 on trips
low wing looks more attractive
similarly low maintenance
similarly high tbo on prop/engine
can pull back power and get 5.5 gph fuel burn and still go faster than a 150
easier to land with low wing getting into ground effect
better crosswind characteristics on take offs and landings
bullit proof lycoming 0320
110 knots real cruise speed if you want to attempt a trip to the coast one a year.
when I transitioned from my Cherokee to my Comanche it was a 37 minute check ride/sign off.

 

[LDJones]

Buying an airplane to get your ratings in is CRAZY. Sure there are examples of people that bought a little gem and never had to spend a dime on it and then sold it for what they paid for it. However, there are many more out there that got burned.

I've seen it work well way more times than I've seen problems. In fact, in 35 years I don't have an example where that didn't work, but have a half dozen that were successful. I always list that as an option, but recommend they do it with 2-3 additional people.

 

[Theboys]

When I got serious about flying I found a 172 for many of reasons stated, but, I also knew it would mentally make me continue flying, especially thru the times when I thought I might not be gifted enough to get done. I never regret buying it and in fact still own it. I don't fly it much but hate to let it go for what it actually costs to own. Any unexpected repairs never amounted to a terrific imposition. I own other planes now that I fly much more often but when I want to take a friend or even three out and go no where but do it low and slow and cheap it always fits the bill.

 

[weilke]

I have watched a number of people do this successfully mostly with Warriors, Cherokee 140s and 180s.

There are a number of advantages to owning the plane you train in:
- availability. If you have a life otherwise, you only have to coordinate with the CFI, not with the CFI and flight-school. You mentioned that you have a business, if you get out of your work an hour late, you only have to worry about coordinating with the CFI, not about bumping the solo student who had the plane schedule after you.
- you will fly more. Once you are signed off for solo flights, taking your plane out pretty much only costs you the fuel to do so. You will fly a lot more if all it takes is to swipe your card at the self-service fuel rather than filling out another charge-slip at the flight school.
- it is YOUR plane. The trim is where you left it, the alternator switch is on when you take off next time, nobody has #@#### with the audio-panel squelch since you flew it last. You dont need to haul your stuff around in a 'flight bag', that pencil is still where you left it last time. It's just more fun that way.

As for what plane to get, it depends on what your mid-term plans are. I love the Cessna 150/152, but what it can do is really limited. Most have been trainers for the majority of their life and some of the parts are getting tired. Sure, people have flown 150s across the atlantic and coast to coast, but they are really not made for that. I have flown mostly low-wing Pipers. If budget is limited, get a 140, if you can spend a bit more and wish to keep it longer get a 180 or Archer. They just have a little bit more room to take kids or guests with you. Older 172s can often be had for a price not much more than a nice 150 or 152.


I didn't get my first plane until I went for the IR, once I had that ticket, I bought into a partnership on a nice A36. If I started out from scratch, I would go about it in a different direction:
#1 Find a trustworthy mechanic. Ask around, honesty is more important than hourly rate.
#2 Ask the mechanic which of the trainers he likes to work on. Some really despise the Cessnas with the small-bore continental engines (early 172s and C150s), others dont like Pipers. Tell him that you are looking for a trainer, he may already know of a plane in his maintenance fleet that is for sale.
#3 DON'T try to find the cheapest plane on the market that happens to be at the other end of the country. After you paid someone to ferry that dog back from florida and paid 3 mechanics along the way to fix stuff that fell off because it was in poor repair, you could have bought the nicest creampuff available locally.
#4 Get a pre-buy, ideally by the shop that will maintain it for you. Dont be afraid to buy a plane that has recently fallen out of annual, have your mechanic do the annual and get squawks fixed on the sellers dime (this wont work of course if you buy a plane your mechanic already maintains, in that case, find a shop two towns over to inspect the plane for you).
#5 If you have to borrow money, borrow enough to keep enough cash on hand to be able to fix stuff that comes up early in the ownership.
#6 Dont fall for the temptation of buying something exotic that is cheap. They are cheap for a reason, and the reason is that the market is small. For a trainer/starter plane that you dont want to hold forever, there are two choices: Piper PA28-1xx and Cessna 172/152/150.

It really comes down to what is your long-term plan. If your 'mission' is that you want to fly 500nm trips in instrument weather, starting out with your own trainer plane may not be a good option. In that case, 'buying your last airplane first', be it a Cirrus, Bonanza or Comanche and to do all your training in it could be a worthwhile option. It'll be an expensive option, but it is is an option. If your plan is to become a professional pilot, buy an Arrow with raggedy paint and interior and use it to get all your ratings, build complex time etc. If you just want to get into aviation and the place you want to go to are nearby, by all means, buy a trainer, get your ratings and never look back at the raggedy trainers available at the flight-school.

 

[Alexb2000]

I think you are putting out bad information that if others unknowingly accept it hurts aviation. So I will be blunt.

With this post you strike me as the kind of guy who has health insurance; life insurance; long term disability insurance; full coverage on your boats, cars toys; and looks out the window for clouds and doesn't go out if there are thunderstorms to avoid lightning.

If you are that afraid of everything why fly at all? It is a risk? Why leave your house?

You are GREATLY over exaggerating the risks, but that is ok that is common when people do not know what they are talking about that conservative bone kicks in. Thing is that you are wrong and you are speaking as if you actually know what you are talking about.... Do you even own an airplane? Do you actually know what it costs to keep and feed a trainer class airplane?

I'll try responding to this one time.

If owning a trainer is such a good investment then why isn't everyone lined up to do it? That's what we're talking about here, the OP is looking at it as an investment that he will get a loan on and in addition to using it for his training perhaps rent it out for others. You make it sound like such a slam dunk profit machine I'm surprised you don't want to finance it for him.

To do this he would want to put the aircraft in a business entity, that cost money to put in place. Unless you think he should just do it as individual property? Say $500. I'll also say he buys it without paying sales tax in this fantasy scenario.

Then he is going to need some money to go shopping, pre-buy expense, travel, buyers agent, etc. Unless you think he should just call a guy and if it sounds good buy it? Budget $2,000

He needs one IFR certified with a lower time motor, say $30K.

Now he needs a loan say 10 years at 10% interest with 30% down. So $9K in cash plus the note.

The OP holds no rating so he'll have to have it ferried back budget $500.

Now he needs a hangar say $250 a month (I'm just guessing).

Now he needs insurance with no rating, $1500 (I'm guessing again).

Now he can finally fly it for training. Let's consider direct cost as fuel $6 per at 7 GPH or $42 per hour.

Let's say the aircraft is almost perfect and he never does anything much except 1 annual and 4 oil changes while flying it 200 hours over 12 months. Call it $1500.

Let's stop at 200 hours over the first year and add it up.

One time cost

$500 + $2000 + $9,000 + $500 = $12K

Recurring over first year

Loan $277 X 12 months = $3300

Fuel 200 hours 7 GPH X $6 = $8,400

Hangar $250 X 12 = $3000

Insurance 12 months = $1500

Total it all $28,200 divided by 200 hours $141 per hour.

Since most places in the country you can rent a 150 for much less than that, where is the up side, where is the savings, where is the investment?

What happens if it needs a repair, or grandma gets sick and he has to stop flying, or he finds out he really doesn't like flying, or ?. Now he's really stuck.

You can shave all those numbers down, park it outside, do your own oil changes, make it as slick as you want, there is just no way that makes financial sense when you consider the downside risk.

Why don't you respond with some math to the contrary.

 

[weilke]

If owning a trainer is such a good investment then why isn't everyone lined up to do it?

Because few prospective students know that it is an option. WHAT, you mean I can just buy a plane and learn to fly in it ?

IF the objective is just to get the rating and then to sell the plane, it is often not a great deal to buy your own plane. IF the objective is to get into aviation and to have a plane, buying it up front and doing the training in it, is a great option.

 

[weilke]

He needs one IFR certified with a lower time motor, say $30K.

Sounds about right.

Now he needs a loan say 10 years at 10% interest with 30% down. So $9K in cash plus the note.

Most people do a lot better on the rate, either through their own bank or one of the small banks that rent on low priced planes.

The OP holds no rating so he'll have to have it ferried back budget $500.

Or he flies out with his instructor and does most of his pre-solo training on the way home.

Now he needs a hangar say $250 a month (I'm just guessing).

Why hangar a 25-30k plane ?

I could go on point by point, but your estimates and method of allocation are faulty (e.g. you allocated the 9k downpayment as a variable cost).

 

[weilke]

Oh, one more thing. IF you do this, consider setting up a properly maintained entity to own the plane. That way, after you are done training, you can buy and sell pieces of the entity to other students without incurring sales taxes while maintaining somewhat of a layer between yourself and the plane.

 

[bnt83]

A 172 being nearly the same in purchase price and in fixed costs it just makes sense. Then factor in the altitude of of the Denver metro and it makes even more sense. Then factor in leaseback it makes even more sense.

If renting 150/152 is only $5/hour cheaper than a 172, I'm taking the 172. It's more flexible and more appealing to renters. Also it's gonna be easier to sell because of all the said factors. Everyone sells the 150/152 for 2 reasons. #1 lack of room to grow and #2 lack of performance, especially hot & high.


IMHO Forget the 150/152, let the folks under 3,000 feet elevation keep them.



Say you do buy the 150 or 152, are you aware of the upcoming ADS-B mandate that will cost you north of $4k by 2020?

 

[Alexb2000]

Sounds about right.

Most people do a lot better on the rate, either through their own bank or one of the small banks that rent on low priced planes.

Or he flies out with his instructor and does most of his pre-solo training on the way home.

Why hangar a 25-30k plane ?

I could go on point by point, but your estimates and method of allocation are faulty (e.g. you allocated the 9k downpayment as a variable cost).

I allocated the $9K downpayment as a one time cost. It's not in the recurring. It is still cash the OP would have to come up with.

There was another thread on aircraft financing and no one seemed to have a reference to anyone that would do it much cheaper. $100K minimum loan, 8% w/ perfect credit, 20% down was the best numbers I've heard. If the OP had the cash that would make much more sense, plus we don't have any idea about credit. It's an assumption.

Hangar it because maybe insurance will require it with a loan on the aircraft. What happens if it gets hail damaged, or vandalized, or whatever? It all has risks, take it out of the numbers it still doesn't make sense.

Bottom line lets say everything is just roses on a shoe string budget, no surprises, all is well. What will that number per hour be $100-110 the same as a 150 rental most places. He still has to come up with $12K just to get started. There are plenty of schools that would take him from zero to ASEL IR for that same $12K. Then assuming he likes it he could focus on getting an aircraft that he wants long term.

 

[weilke]

I allocated the $9K downpayment as a one time cost. It's not in the recurring. It is still cash the OP would have to come up with.

But it is cash he will get back if he sells the airplane, wrecks it or trades it on his next one.

It's capital, not cost.

Hangar it because maybe insurance will require it with a loan on the aircraft. What happens if it gets hail damaged, or vandalized, or whatever? It all has risks, take it out of the numbers it still doesn't make sense.

They want to know whether it is hangared and you get a couple percentage points on the premium if it is. It is not a requirement for insurance.

 

[Henning]

I allocated the $9K downpayment as a one time cost. It's not in the recurring. It is still cash the OP would have to come up with.

There was another thread on aircraft financing and no one seemed to have a reference to anyone that would do it much cheaper. $100K minimum loan, 8% w/ perfect credit, 20% down was the best numbers I've heard. If the OP had the cash that would make much more sense, plus we don't have any idea about credit. It's an assumption.

Hangar it because maybe insurance will require it with a loan on the aircraft. What happens if it gets hail damaged, or vandalized, or whatever? It all has risks, take it out of the numbers it still doesn't make sense.

Bottom line lets say everything is just roses on a shoe string budget, no surprises, all is well. What will that number per hour be $100-110 the same as a 150 rental most places. He still has to come up with $12K just to get started. There are plenty of schools that would take him from zero to ASEL IR for that same $12K. Then assuming he likes it he could focus on getting an aircraft that he wants long term.

Nope.

 

[weilke]

Let's stop at 200 hours over the first year and add it up.

One time cost

$500 + $2000 + $9,000 + $500 = $12K

As mentioned, your allocation is faulty. This item onlye comes up to:
= 3k

Recurring over first year

Loan $277 X 12 months = $3300

Again, you are rolling capital (the amount paid down on the loan) into expenses. At 7% interest, the actual interest expense is only going to be :

= $1610.

Fuel 200 hours 7 GPH X $6 = $8,400

Right now probably a good assumption.

Hangar $250 X 12 = $3000

$60 tiedown: $720

Insurance 12 months = $1500

For a 30k plane and student pilot, probably a bit less, $1200 or so.

Total it all $28,200 divided by 200 hours $141 per hour.

And a more realistic scenario.

$14,930 = 74.65/hr

Probably prudent to add $15/hr maintenance/oil-changes/annual and you come out to $90/hr. For a plane that is :
- available whenever you want
- that you can leave somewhere overnight if the weather is iffy without having to worry about getting fined by the school

....a pretty good deal.

The reason you come out ahead over a rental plane is the stuff you dont pay for:
- The $5000+/year rental insurance with hull coverage
- The 100hr inspections
- the flight schools margin

You keep saying 'it can't be done, it can't be done, it can't be done' when there are plenty examples of people who have done it.