Buying C-150 to train

[Skylane81E]

I dont think that experience is unique to a student pilot purchasing a trainer. The only difference is that the numbers get bigger once folks get into high performance retracts or twins. There is only so much money you can lose on a neglected 20k Cherokee, there is seemingly no limit on how much money you can lose on a neglected C340 .

Correct! I think that first time buyers are the most likely to do it regardless of if they have a certificate or not.

 

[steingar]

And what was your home base altitude?

We're at about 1000 feet here.

The OP is Colorado Spring Colorado, where the field elevation is 6,800 feet. Density altitude on hot days can come within a few thousand feet of a Cessna 150's service ceiling. Say you takoff from Colorado Springs on a hot day with two about and 2 hours of gas a Cessna 150 will STRUGGLE to make 1000 feet above ground.

A good point, and one I didn't catch. If one is my size and can find a similarly sized CFI, this still might not be an issue. But I digress to those with mountain experience, I most certainly don't have any.

For flight instruction ur gonna spend 10 - 15 minutes just to climb to a safe altitude to perform manuvers, wasting time in the climb is expensive. Cessna 150 don't have an oil cooler either so up there a cesna 150 might not do well oil temperature wise on that hot day were the density altitued at 2,000 feet AGL is only 2,000 feet under the service ceiling of the airplane.

I flew mine on the hottest days without issue. To be honest, short of a Skylane I really don't know the aircraft that will be that much better.

For his altitude and mission the Cessna 150 is not a good fit. If he lived at a lower elevation, then I'd say go for it.

I won't dispute you, obviously I din't read the whole thread before I posted my own experience.

A 200 feet per minute climb probably wouldn't get over rising terrian around the airports out there.

I really don't see how any of the primary trainers are really going to be that much better. Most will give anemic climb at those density altitudes.

 

[bnt83]

We're at about 1000 feet here.



A good point, and one I didn't catch. If one is my size and can find a similarly sized CFI, this still might not be an issue. But I digress to those with mountain experience, I most certainly don't have any.



I flew mine on the hottest days without issue. To be honest, short of a Skylane I really don't know the aircraft that will be that much better.



I won't dispute you, obviously I din't read the whole thread before I posted my own experience.



I really don't see how any of the primary trainers are really going to be that much better. Most will give anemic climb at those density altitudes.

Wing loading and power to weight ratio.

 

[weilke]

Correct! I think that first time buyers are the most likely to do it regardless of if they have a certificate or not.

In a way making those first time buyer mistakes on a 25k trainer with only 4 cylinders to replace is probably better than later on. With the right expertise on your side, buying as a student pilot should not be any more risky than any other aircraft purchase (now, some unscrupulous mechanics try to talk students into buying a 'cheap' basketcase hoping to do all the refurbishment work, but that tends to backfire).

 

[Skylane81E]

In a way making those first time buyer mistakes on a 25k trainer with only 4 cylinders to replace is probably better than later on. With the right expertise on your side, buying as a student pilot should not be any more risky than any other aircraft purchase (now, some unscrupulous mechanics try to talk students into buying a 'cheap' basketcase hoping to do all the refurbishment work, but that tends to backfire).

As with anything else boils down to knowledge.

 

[supernovae]

Buying an airplane to get your ratings in is CRAZY. Sure there are examples of people that bought a little gem and never had to spend a dime on it and then sold it for what they paid for it. However, there are many more out there that got burned.

Isn't that just the risk of ownership in general? If you want to build time and get up to 150+ hours, is it better to have 0 equity but dump 15k+ into your FBO and still have no idea what its like to own and maintain an aircraft?

 

[livitup]

What's a reasonable discount to expect to be able to negotiate off TAP/BS listing prices for your average 172/PA-28 these days?

 

[Paulsen]

Isn't that just the risk of ownership in general? If you want to build time and get up to 150+ hours, is it better to have 0 equity but dump 15k+ into your FBO and still have no idea what its like to own and maintain an aircraft?

This is exactly what my brain keeps telling me! Now is the C-150 right for me and my location most have said no, I wont know until I've done more research. Lets say a C-172 fits my situation perfectly, is if better to dump money renting for some reason? Or is it in fact better to own with all the benefits including equity?

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

What's a reasonable discount to expect to be able to negotiate off TAP/BS listing prices for your average 172/PA-28 these days?

It depends....if a guy is 150% higher than his plane they you offer him 75% discount.....Generally it doesn't work to deal with idiots so better to first find out a reasonable price for an average, midtime, mid equipped of whatever model you are looking for 172 or Cherokee they are not priced similarly so know both if you are ambidextrous.

I bought 10 years ago. At that time a mid 60's Cherokee was carried with Vref/tAP evaluator at about $26.900. I found a plane I liked listed at what it should be listed at and I negotiated 30% off of that price as the market was considered bad back then too, plus the seller paying for a full Annual inspection and paying all discrepancies. Got a free handheld GPS included, Cherokee cover with n number on it; $300 worth of shop manuals/service books for the Cherokee.

It was listed at Vref of $26,900 (including adjusting for high time engine) back then, I paid $20k even.

I also seen a few listed above $35k+++ in the same condition as the owners were unrealistically optimistic. I tend not to negotiate with a ridiculously high priced planes. I just pass them by. Why waste your time trying to tell someone else what his plane is worth? Most of these guys are old fools.....If a guy makes a decent effort to price his bird within reasonable range of Vref then I would talk to them.

You should read a book about buying airplanes, take savvy aviator course so you really know what the issues are as far as engine condition and maintenance....

One rule I stick buy: Do not buy that low time AF and low time engine for a super premium price.... First off you are paying the most you could for that model airplane. Second it is likely not in top condition but you are paying for top condition plus....people are stupid on this point. I prefer a mid time AF and high time engine....a high time engine can run past TBO so you get hours of free flying so to speak. Plus if you do have to rebuild the engine you are not paying for it twice, once when you bought it and once when it fails prematurely.....Finally you get to pick who does the OH and get a warranty from same.

 

[Alexb2000]

Isn't that just the risk of ownership in general? If you want to build time and get up to 150+ hours, is it better to have 0 equity but dump 15k+ into your FBO and still have no idea what its like to own and maintain an aircraft?

This whole issue comes down to human nature. What do most people do when the transmission in their $5k car starts slipping occasionally? Trade it in. What does someone do when the TV won't power on about every 100th time, put it on Craigslist. What do they do when the engine in their $20k airplane gets a bad oil analysis, or they have to oil the cylinders to pass annual compressions, etc. They sell it to the next guy vs. losing $10-15k.

To guard against that you have to convince the seller to let you tear into the airplane using an A&P s/he doesn't know (I'm not letting that happen to my plane BTW). Pay the A&P to really dig in and hope to get 90%. That isn't a large expense relative to a $500k airplane, but it sure is on a $20k airplane.

The other way is to buy a local plane where you know the history, owner, and mechanic. It helps because no one wants to look you in the eye at the FBO coffee pot every Saturday knowing they screwed you. Of course this severely limits your choices of aircraft and timing.

 

[supernovae]

This whole issue comes down to human nature. What do most people do when the transmission in their $5k car starts slipping occasionally? Trade it in. What does someone do when the TV won't power on about every 100th time, put it on Craigslist. What do they do when the engine in their $20k airplane gets a bad oil analysis, or they have to oil the cylinders to pass annual compressions, etc. They sell it to the next guy vs. losing $10-15k.

To guard against that you have to convince the seller to let you tear into the airplane using an A&P s/he doesn't know (I'm not letting that happen to my plane BTW). Pay the A&P to really dig in and hope to get 90%. That isn't a large expense relative to a $500k airplane, but it sure is on a $20k airplane.

The other way is to buy a local plane where you know the history, owner, and mechanic. It helps because no one wants to look you in the eye at the FBO coffee pot every Saturday knowing they screwed you. Of course this severely limits your choices of aircraft and timing.

All of that is entirely true..

But, realistically.. many of us are perpetually in the old budget aircraft where maintenance is a fact of life.. and a lot of us can only afford to fly because we actually fix our own car or tv or stop watching (or driving) it if it breaks

 

[Paulsen]

I just checked out the savvy aviators web site and there's tons of info on the subject thanks for pointing them out. Ill. Spend time learning as much as I can on the subject as I believe this is the route I want to go, or through research I may find that it is not lol. Either way thanks to everybody who took time to comment.

 

[Utah-Jay]

Called my local airport today to check on hanger and tiedown costs.

$100 +tax per month for a tiedown

$595 +Tax per month for a hanger, no discount for yearly lease

Does anyone think this is kind of big?

btw, F45 is the airport, run by Palm Beach County

 

[Alexb2000]

Called my local airport today to check on hanger and tiedown costs.

$100 +tax per month for a tiedown

$595 +Tax per month for a hanger, no discount for yearly lease

Does anyone think this is kind of big?

btw, F45 is the airport, run by Palm Beach County

No. Certain areas are just expensive. Plenty of places charge similar rates.

 

[Lawreston]

If you can buy the right plane for under $20k, it can serve you well. Try to find something with under 1000 SMOH and with dual nav/coms and a GS so you can do instrument training in it too. The ideal scenario is to buy something with 500 hours on the engine, sell it before it gets to 1000 so the buyer is still buying mid-time. A 150 is a great time-builder, cheap (relative) to fly and maintain and they will always have some resale value.

Consider this, the average private pilot student spends $4000+ on aircraft rental alone. If you spend $1000 on an annual, you're still $3000 ahead on the rentals. You also don't have to worry about scheduling the plane from the flight school.

Of course, if you have to borrow the money to buy the plane, you're out the interest on the loan, so it makes a lot more sense if you can pay cash for the plane.

OP: I'm coming in on this a few days late. However, I just received a telephone call that it's my turn to go to the airport(12sm from home) and snow blow the "participating" owners' hangars re last night's snowfall. And the caller told me his C-150 is for sale. It's in a closed hangar, has a new engine within the last year or so; not aware of how many hours on the new engine. The 20k figure I heard mentioned, I'm told, won't cover what's gone into it. For more information, email me. Bill is a long-experienced pilot, lives a couple miles from my house, and has flown my Skyhawk on many occasions.

HR

 

[Utah-Jay]

I completely understand the the concept of supply and demand. This airport has so much area to expand it's supply of hangers (yes, there is a waiting list) and lots of tiedowns not currently being used.

I just wish things were more affordable.

 

[LDJones]

If you think hundreds of hours in a 150 is worthwhile experience, go for it. Personally I wouldn't hire an instructor who only had several hundred hours in a 150, but most new students won't have that figured out yet, plus you'll have a 150 to give primary instruction in, and even instrument instruction if properly equipped.

Last time I checked the flight planning was pretty much the same whether flight planning for a 150, a 172 or a 182. Assuming you use it to build some x-c time (and not just 51 nm jaunts, but real x-c....several hundred mile trips), you'll cross the same weather systems you would in a bigger, faster machine...you'll just build a few more hours doing it.

So to answer the OP's original question: Yes, having ANY plane available to use and build time with is experience building. Will an airline snap you up because you have 300 hours of 150 time? Nope. But you could have 300 hours of 210 time and they're probably not going to hire you either. But you're learning something every hour you fly, and having something readily available and (relatively) inexpensive to fly, is a big plus.

 

[bnt83]

Called my local airport today to check on hanger and tiedown costs.

$100 +tax per month for a tiedown

$595 +Tax per month for a hanger, no discount for yearly lease

Does anyone think this is kind of big?

btw, F45 is the airport, run by Palm Beach County

This is why I would never buy a Cessna 150 again. All these cost are the same if you buy a Cessna 172... Yes the purchase price of a comparibale C172 may be higher, but it has so much more utility and flexibility and maintenance won't be much different.

 

[Paulsen]

Its $40 to tie down and $105 to tie down under a covered car port type roof.

 

[supernovae]

This is why I would never buy a Cessna 150 again. All these cost are the same if you buy a Cessna 172... Yes the purchase price of a comparibale C172 may be higher, but it has so much more utility and flexibility and maintenance won't be much different.

If you're not using the utility/flexibility (aka, carrying pax) then the 172 will just burn more fuel..

For me, the 172 would be more comfortable, but i'd still have to replace it/trade out of it since it wouldn't really fit my mission (neither does the 150/152, but it has a lower operating cost yet regardless of the same fixed costs..)

 

[bnt83]

If you're not using the utility/flexibility (aka, carrying pax) then the 172 will just burn more fuel..

For me, the 172 would be more comfortable, but i'd still have to replace it/trade out of it since it wouldn't really fit my mission (neither does the 150/152, but it has a lower operating cost yet regardless of the same fixed costs..)

If your flying out of Colorado Springs like the original poster does, he will be using ever bit of the Cessna 172 capabilities and still wish for more...

 

[Henning]

Last time I checked the flight planning was pretty much the same whether flight planning for a 150, a 172 or a 182. Assuming you use it to build some x-c time (and not just 51 nm jaunts, but real x-c....several hundred mile trips), you'll cross the same weather systems you would in a bigger, faster machine...you'll just build a few more hours doing it.

So to answer the OP's original question: Yes, having ANY plane available to use and build time with is experience building. Will an airline snap you up because you have 300 hours of 150 time? Nope. But you could have 300 hours of 210 time and they're probably not going to hire you either. But you're learning something every hour you fly, and having something readily available and (relatively) inexpensive to fly, is a big plus.

No gear emergencies, never had experience with hypoxia, doesn't understand rpm vs mp engine dynamics, doesn't know the intricacies of LOP ops off a HP engine, has never experienced getting behind the airplane.....

 

[docmirror]

My few cents worth. When I learned to fly fixed wing, I looked at rental prices, and bought a used Citabria to learn, and fly around. Yes, it's a TW, yes, it's fabric, yes, it had marginal radios. It didn't break the bank, it didn't fall apart, it didn't fly me for free, it didn't ruin me for later planes. In fact, I think it made me a better pilot for the other planes I flew later.

I got to choose my own instructor which was much, much better for me. I got to choose my own A&P, and learn the systems of MY plane while he worked on it. Invaluable education in aviation mechanics.

Interestingly, I now own a Bonanza. As a primary trainer it's pretty easy. Don't touch that, and that, and that - the rest of it is pretty much like a Piper with elec flaps. Maybe I wouldn't do it, but if you want to go somewhere later, you don't have to sell then buy again. However, if you do choose this option, spend more money up front for an annual by a well respected Bonanza expert to check all the idiosyncrasies so you don't get burned by your lack of experience. Know what you don't know.

Tony has covered the Cher 140 aspect well. Another fine choice for both primary training and the first 2-5 years of your private pilot life. It can be modded as you go to make it a bit faster. The 160HP option would help at the altitude you operate. Don't focus only the Cessna. There's nothing wrong with Cessna, but it's not the only GA plane built.

Take a look at the Grumman AA-5. I would(and did) get that before getting a Piper. Not a lot of difference in performance, but they are more spritely to fly, and the visibility is fantastic. Will teach you decent rudder control due to the castering nose wheel and short coupled controls. Similar to the Cher 140, it's ok for cross country, but not real fast. It is not as good in high DA situations, but that will also teach good energy management.

Tri-Pacer. It's a fabric plane with high sink rate. The cheap one's have an orphan engine of 135HP and would be marginal for high DA(altitude+heat) situations of Co Springs in summer. The better ones have 150HP and would be suitable. Have a fabric expert test the covering because having two wings recovered during your ownership could just about double the ownership cost without really improving the market value of the plane. Depending on covering, it does not always do well sitting outside. Better plane is the Pacer which is a TW plane. It will teach you better landings, and is faster to boot. Insurance would be a bit higher, but consider liability only. Remember, you get to decide how much insurance you want, not the club, or the rental place.

Which reminds me, if you do rent, don't forget your own insurance. Most FBOs won't cover you as a pilot, or a student, so watch out, one more cost to rent.

Buying a plane is no mystery. Get pro help, and get more pro help for the more complex plane you investigate. I'd prolly go with the Grumman AA-5, then a Piper Cher 140, then a Cessna 152(slightly better perf), and if you consider the Pacer, that would be next, followed by the Bonanza but only if you want a Bonanza later(who wouldn't?).

 

[LDJones]

No gear emergencies, never had experience with hypoxia, doesn't understand rpm vs mp engine dynamics, doesn't know the intricacies of LOP ops off a HP engine, has never experienced getting behind the airplane.....

And no newly-minted private pilot is going to be dealing with most of those issues for some time, at least if the insurance companies have anything to say about it. I also think every one of those is secondary to understanding how to navigate safely across multiple weather systems, which can be learned in a 150...with PLENTY of time to think about things!