Buying a aircraft you can't afford.

[flyingcheesehead]

That and......THE SPREADSHEET.

Hey, nothing wrong with at least trying to come up with a ballpark figure. It's really not that difficult to throw together a spreadsheet that includes your fixed costs (hangar, insurance, and if you have a loan the payment on that; smart owners will also include things like GPS databases and the inspection cost of an annual) and your variable costs (fuel, oil, maintenance).

Maintenance is the tricky one, because it is highly variable. In a good year, you might be able to get away with under $3,000. Sooner or later, you'll find yourself writing a surprise five-figure check, and if you're unlucky you might follow that up with another one.

 

[AvNavCom]

A smart owner DOES "nickel and dime" in some ways, mostly by educating themselves and doing the same maintenance for less money.

For example, I will frequently source parts myself. Possibly the most extreme example was the shop wanting to charge $1900 for a new manifold pressure gauge (with 60 day warranty!), I bought a used one for $36 with a 30-day warranty. It's usually not that big of a difference, but it's not uncommon for me to be able to save 25-30% on parts by shopping around if I know they need to be replaced soon.

I think we perhaps have a misunderstanding of terms. In my mind, there is a difference between frugal maintenance (hunting for the best value while maintaining quality) and nickel-and-diming (doing the absolute minimum maintenance to maintain legality, with everything else deferred). Perhaps the latter isn't the best term. I've seen stuff home-installed illegally in certified aircraft because the owner didn't want to pay an hour of labor for an A&P to do it. It was "good enough" and "they'll never know". Same with the "cheap" annual, which in one instance resulted in a mechanic discovering that the flight control cables were sliding and rubbing thoughout the tail because nothing had been checked or lubricated in probably 10 years.

I totally understand that flying takes a lot of folks to the limit of their budget and they need to be as frugal as possible to remain in the air. Hell, I've been there more than once. Where I draw the line is people saving a buck by sacrificing quality (or not doing it at all) on stuff that could potentially cause a serious safety issue down the road for themselves or, worse, someone else.

 

[Jim Kickland]

i have been enjoying reading this thread. I have recently moved "down" to my LAST airplane. this is #13 and have experienced MOST of the surprises everyone is talking about. I have settled on a RV7 and loving it. I don't do any maintenance myself and pay the shop as I have done on all my airplanes. I figure I can afford to fly this plane the rest of my flying days at a somewhat "reasonable" costs. The fuel burn/ insurance/ simplicity of systems are all manageable. Not FREE however manageable for me. Going 180 knots on 10.5gph is AWSOME!!!! When I get too old or fat to get in and out of the plane it will be time to retire from flying. Oh! I am a member of the "driving a 13 year old pick up club" also !!! LOL

 

[AvNavCom]

Oh! I am a member of the "driving a 13 year old pick up club" also !!! LOL

Same! My car is 13 years old and I'll keep driving it until the wheels fall off. I enjoyed explaining this to the guy who decided that I must be "rich" because I fly a plane, despite the fact that his late-model bro-dozer emotional support truck was six figures and cost way more than my plane!

 

[AV8R_87]

Oh! I am a member of the "driving a 13 year old pick up club" also !!! LOL

My car is 13 years old and I'll keep driving it until the wheels fall off.

Look at you rich guys bragging about being able to afford a car made this century.

 

[MIFlyer]

Same! My car is 13 years old and I'll keep driving it until the wheels fall off. I enjoyed explaining this to the guy who decided that I must be "rich" because I fly a plane, despite the fact that his late-model bro-dozer emotional support truck was six figures and cost way more than my plane!

That's how I talk about mine. "My plane cost me almost exactly what a new pickup would run, so I drive a 20 year old car and a 70 year old airplane" You can also sprinkle in that you don't have a boat or RV if that's something you choose to share. "this is our family toy, we did this instead of a boat or RV because it helps us see distant family/etc"

 

[Flyhound]

I don't know. I made more money on my first 2 planes when I sold them than I did on my first 2 houses (on a percentage of purchase cost basis). Both my Grumman AA5 and my Pitts S2A were actually good investments that I also got to fly lots of hours in. My 3rd plane was a wash on the purchase and sale money and I still have my 4th plane. This one is going to be a money loser because I kept it past the useful life of the engine and had to pay for a rebuild. That completely trashes the economics of ownership, but man this plane (a Maule) has taken me some fantastic places and has produced memories that I'll savor long after I stop flying.

 

[francisco collazos]

You can always tell when someone has no idea how much a plane costs to own. They ask completely irrelevant questions like how much is the fuel burn per hour, or how much does insurance cost. Or make statements like I’m going to buy a plane because renting or leasing is too expensive ;-)

Some of us are weird that way. Like me... $20 gym shorts ...no but $60 scotch..no problem

 

[Pinecone]

True. Much like auto racing. Racing's also a hobby, but it requires a tremendous level of commitment. For the time I was doing it, I pretty much immersed myself in it, which was the only thing that let me grit my teeth and spend the money it took. I can't imagine trying to do both at the same time, but I knew several people who did.

Depending the class you race, the cost can make aircraft ownership seem cheap.

I ran SRF so pretty low costs. But a set of tires was $600 (2000s), and you needed a set every 2 - 3 race weekends. Engine overhauls were only about $4500 and you could go several seasons.

I talked to one guy who raced one of the higher classes. He spend $2500 per weekend on tires. And did 2 engine rebuilds per season at $25000 each. And this was in 2010.

 

[Half Fast]

Depending the class you race, the cost can make aircraft ownership seem cheap.

I ran SRF so pretty low costs. But a set of tires was $600 (2000s), and you needed a set every 2 - 3 race weekends. Engine overhauls were only about $4500 and you could go several seasons.

I talked to one guy who raced one of the higher classes. He spend $2500 per weekend on tires. And did 2 engine rebuilds per season at $25000 each. And this was in 2010.

Yep. I raced in IT-7, so definitely at the cheapskate end of the scale, and I crewed for a buddy who ran in SRF. He was nationally competitive, and even in SRF that gets pricey with test days and fresh tires every weekend, not to mention lots of travel to national races.

Some of the guys running in GT-1 were spending a fortune every weekend, many of them driving ex TransAm cars. After a shunt, I could get many of my replacement parts from a junkyard. The GT-1 or Formula Atlantic guys? HAH! Every part on the car was cu$tom and very expen$ive.

 

[Half Fast]

Engine overhauls were only about $4500 and you could go several seasons.

One nice thing about the Wankels was that they'd run forever, and overhauls were cheap. I split a coolant line on a pace lap and didn't notice my overtemp until the end of the first lap, so I cooked a motor and had to OH it. I think all total it was only about $1500 or so. Mazda Motorsports sold me all the parts dirt cheap, and IIRC the shop that did the work only charged about a grand.

 

[robin ardoin]

Depending the class you race, the cost can make aircraft ownership seem cheap.

I ran SRF so pretty low costs. But a set of tires was $600 (2000s), and you needed a set every 2 - 3 race weekends. Engine overhauls were only about $4500 and you could go several seasons.

I talked to one guy who raced one of the higher classes. He spend $2500 per weekend on tires. And did 2 engine rebuilds per season at $25000 each. And this was in 2010.

Running the original tube chassis Formula Mazda cost around $3-4000 all in (not counting expenses of transporting the cars/gear/ourselves) for an SCCA double weekend if we ran new tires each day. In the carbon fiber chassis/Renesis engine car it costs about $3500/car for a double weekend and add a bit if we held the track for Friday practice. This is excluding crash damage which was common in open wheeled cars. When I ran my son in the Pro Mazda Championship, I paid a team to manage the car, provide transportation/mechanics and an engineer. The race weekends cost, for a couple of practice sessions, qualifying session, and the actual race, close to $30K; I provided the car with full instrumentation ($130K at the time 2007-2010). Crash damage? Fugettabout it....I'm still trying to. LOL. Had to write off one car on an oval in Iowa and about 1/3 of a car at turn 8, Mosport. That was an expensive season. Flying is relatively inexpensive .

 

[bradg33]

The best way to save money as an owner is to learn to troubleshoot, source parts and, eventually, do as much of your own work as your A&P/IA will tolerate (and, as needed, find an A&P/IA that will work with you).

Rolling up to a shop (especially a repair station or a place with "jet center" in the name), tossing them the keys and saying "call me when it's done" is how most stories of "Maintenance costs are killing me!" begin.

If you don't have any interest in learning about your airplane and being an involved owner (in other words, you just want to show up, fly it, put it away, and write checks for someone else to do everything else), your wallet better be prepared.

 

[robin ardoin]

One nice thing about the Wankels was that they'd run forever, and overhauls were cheap. I split a coolant line on a pace lap and didn't notice my overtemp until the end of the first lap, so I cooked a motor and had to OH it. I think all total it was only about $1500 or so. Mazda Motorsports sold me all the parts dirt cheap, and IIRC the shop that did the work only charged about a grand.

The Mazda 13-B in the tube frame car would run, competitively, about 1 1/2 race seasons and then would either have a noticeable power drop or outright blow the apex seals. We had to run sealed engines so Darryl Drummond could not get inside and make it a special motor although, it was widely speculated and probably true, some competitors had access to the series seals and did modify engines. The Renesis engine hopefully got a season but I had to replace an engine twice in my son's car during the season.

 

[Half Fast]

Obviously it all depends upon what you choose to fly or race.....


Personally, I believe I can fly my baby Beech and have 90% of the fun I'd have in an SR22 for a lot less money. I know racing my RX7 was as much fun, maybe more, as I would have had in a GT-1, for a lot less money.

You pays your money and you makes your choice...

 

[francisco collazos]

My second car was a 81 rx7 and I loved it. I had a friend that would race his RX7 and the first thing we did was removed the emissions stuff. I loved the moon roof on the car. Much better than the 1971 fiat 850 sport that I learned to drive in. That car was broken every week but I was a teenager then and thought it looked cool. Too bad I spent more time on the bus than in the car.

 

[MIFlyer]

Obviously it all depends upon what you choose to fly or race.....


Personally, I believe I can fly my baby Beech and have 90% of the fun I'd have in an SR22 for a lot less money. I know racing my RX7 was as much fun, maybe more, as I would have had in a GT-1, for a lot less money.

You pays your money and you makes your choice...

One of my best friends does Pro3 and it's similar. He spent some real money on a pickup truck, camper, and car trailer. He would have bought the first two anyway.

Then he spends a reasonable amount per year on consumables, stuff that breaks/wears and usually one upgrade a year (shocks, or OH engine, or rear diff, or ??) and is pretty competitive.

I'm a new airplane owner, but as I approach my first annual, it seems like the same kind of thing. I have some stuff that just has to happen (inspection/oil change), some once in a while stuff that sucks ($2500 required prop IRAN every 5 years), a few things I just want to get ahead of (gear bungies and leaking pushrod tube for a few hundred bucks), and then "upgrades" (putting STC'd sliding seats in). I'll probably have $10K in this year, and I'm OK with that. I could make it $6k if i owner assisted, but right now my time is tight and I can't really take a week to go work on the airplane.

Next year, I won't need prop/seats/etc, so it'll be more like a $3k annual+a few wear and tear items+potentially a couple of upgrades to continue to maintain and improve the plane while being sane about it.

 

[unsafervguy]

I would guess that around 90% don't know what they're in for, especially the stoooooopid costs of some parts.

A smart owner DOES "nickel and dime" in some ways, mostly by educating themselves and doing the same maintenance for less money.

For example, I will frequently source parts myself. Possibly the most extreme example was the shop wanting to charge $1900 for a new manifold pressure gauge (with 60 day warranty!), I bought a used one for $36 with a 30-day warranty. It's usually not that big of a difference, but it's not uncommon for me to be able to save 25-30% on parts by shopping around if I know they need to be replaced soon.

This!!! That's where the remaining 10% who *do* understand what they're getting into come from. I was on the board of my flying club for eight years before getting my own plane, and served as treasurer or maintenance director for most of that time. There are many expensive lessons to be had in aircraft ownership, and the more you can learn with other people's money, the better.

It looks like the T-6 burns about 32 gph in cruise, or about $160/hour for fuel, *4 = $640/hr so it seems 4x fuel still works...

I think many people just have NO CLUE what maintenance really costs. Labor is fairly easy to understand. Parts... Man, there are a lot of parts that would be $12 on a car that are $1000 on an airplane.

But they'll look at that $50K Viking and think "That Dan guy is wrong." So I now use a slightly different version of this saying: "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane.

yes the 4x works in this case, except that I am an A&P IA so i don't include labor in my cost estimates. if i included inspections and labor it would not work.

 

[WDD]

in my mind, there is a difference between frugal maintenance (hunting for the best value while maintaining quality) and nickel-and-diming

Spot on. Frugal is wise spending. Nickel and Diming / Cheap gets expensive.