Bought my first gun today! Side note

That Ruger 10/22 is a great rifle to plink with congratulations on the purchase. Here is a suggestion for you do not buy "gun grease" as a lubricant that stuff is a rip off. Go to the automotive section of your local Wal-mart there they should have a tube of the Wal-mart brand general purpose/regular duty grease. The Wal-mart grease is a lithium based grease the same as "gun grease" only it costs much less. I have been using it to lube the actions of my guns for a long time and it works great.

Congrats again on the purchase!
 
...and my second gun is an AR-15. But anyway....

About home defense, it depends on what kind of situation you think you will be in. In my area most of the reported home invasions have been in broad daylight, usually ringing the doorbell and then kicking the door in when the resident comes to open the door. In that situation there's no way to run up the stairs and down the hall to grab a gun, be it a rifle pistol or shotgun. The only real solution there is to carry in your own home, which then seems a little like paranoia.
 
With regards to home defense, do you really want to light off a 5.56 or 12 guage inside your house? Think about noise and muzzle blast. 9MM is my max for indoor, and I may even go to .380.

I can hit gongs out at 100 yards with my 9MM's, but that is not an argument for self defense whih is a close in situation or you are committing murder.
 
nealius said:
...and my second gun is an AR-15. But anyway....

About home defense, it depends on what kind of situation you think you will be in. In my area most of the reported home invasions have been in broad daylight, usually ringing the doorbell and then kicking the door in when the resident comes to open the door. In that situation there's no way to run up the stairs and down the hall to grab a gun, be it a rifle pistol or shotgun. The only real solution there is to carry in your own home, which then seems a little like paranoia.
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My gun in on my hip from the time I wake up in the morning until I lay down for bed in the evening....on the rare occasions that it isn't physically on my hip it is still within arms reach.
 
Anthony said:
With regards to home defense, do you really want to light off a 5.56 or 12 guage inside your house? Think about noise and muzzle blast. 9MM is my max for indoor, and I may even go to .380.
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Sorry, but you're gonna be more worried about a few extra dB of noise than your safety?!? Have you ever shot a gun in a house? I have, and there's no noticeable difference. After my dad was worried about basically the same thing, which was it getting too loud and blowing out windows, we broke out the dB meter. Every shot, even with large-bore rifles were no more than a 5dB increase. In a life-and-death situation, you're not gonna be worried about that. And if you are, your priorities are in the wrong place.

pikespeakmtnman said:
My gun in on my hip from the time I wake up in the morning until I lay down for bed in the evening....on the rare occasions that it isn't physically on my hip it is still within arms reach.
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:yeahthat: And if it's not on my hip, it's sitting on the table right next to me. Regardless of where it was, I never touch the door without it.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Sorry, but you're gonna be more worried about a few extra dB of noise than your safety?!? Have you ever shot a gun in a house? I have, and there's no noticeable difference. After my dad was worried about basically the same thing, which was it getting too loud and blowing out windows, we broke out the dB meter. Every shot, even with large-bore rifles were no more than a 5dB increase. In a life-and-death situation, you're not gonna be worried about that. And if you are, your priorities are in the wrong place.

:yeahthat: And if it's not on my hip, it's sitting on the table right next to me. Regardless of where it was, I never touch the door without it.
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Yeah, I have done it as an exepriment with a db meter and it is way different than 5db. You are talking about significant hearing loss, plus muzzle blast that will blind you, both incapacitating you. 9MM is as far as I will go for home defense.
 
Anthony said:
Yeah, I have done it as an exepriment with a db meter and it is way different than 5db. You are talking about significant hearing loss, plus muzzle blast that will blind you, both incapacitating you. 9MM is as far as I will go for home defense.
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For me, if it comes to firing a shot(s) to eliminate a threat, I'm more worried about loss of life than loss of hearing.

For the muzzle flash blinding, all you have to do is train to blink right when you shoot, and it doesn't hardly do anything. I do night training every week and at least once a month at night in a dark shoot-house. Sure, if you don't blink right, it's bright, but no to the point of blindness.

And the muzzle flash observations as well as the noise experiments are all done with a firearm that has no muzzle break or flash hider (with the exception of the .50BMG tested, that had an external suppressor to replace the standard muzzle break).

Oh well, agree to disagree then. :)
 
DaleB said:
My reasoning is that a.) If the thing I'm shooting at is not close enough to reliably hit with a pistol, it's not enough of a threat to justify shooting; and b.) If the first 2 or 3 rounds don't do the job, 20 more probably aren't going to help much.

Now, I don't take that to the extreme of carrying a Derringer... but I'm not going to sweat not having an AR-15 and a bandolier under the mattress, either.
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I didn't mean to say a large caliber handgun is inadequate for home defense or for every day carry, just not ideal. Its like buying a back country STOL plane and then flying only long cross country trips to 5000 foot runways. Sure you can do it, but why not buy what fits the mission best?

Luckily guns are lots cheaper than airplanes, so get one of each and have fun with it. No compromises required.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
 
SAROPS said:
A 30-06 has been on my mind! Will check the Remington out...thanks.

Tony
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Can't go wrong with a good 'ole Rem.30-06! If myself and my dad aren't using ours, then my uncle will trade out his Browning and take ours to the field. They're low maintenance and still very accurate. I maintain 1-MOA at 250yds. Can ring a 12" gong at 600yds every time. I do like the semi-auto for doing quick follow-up shots when messing around, but if it were for hunting, I'd get a bolt.
 
ZG_Mooney said:
If you like big handguns like the 1911, .40, .45, .357, etc, rest assured, so do I, but they are really only good for the range or for open carry. If you are expecting a fire fight, they are not your weapon of choice. If you unexpectedly encounter a fire fight, they will probably be in your center console because you got tired of walking around with a giant bulge in your pants.
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For true self and home defense, the good ol' wheel gun still works fine. Always goes bang, easy to conceal, etc etc etc.
 
We should be allowed to purchase fully automatic machine guns. I'd like to conceal and carry that.. Hell I am in NJ I can't even dream of concealing and carry its unheard of..
 
marcoseddi said:
We should be allowed to purchase fully automatic machine guns. I'd like to conceal and carry that.. Hell I am in NJ I can't even dream of concealing and carry its unheard of..
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It's actaully legal in almost every state to purchase a full-auto firearm. You just have to be wealthy and/or have friends in high places, and be patient, since the ATF paperwork will take at best 6 months.
 
Yeah, I have done it as an exepriment with a db meter and it is way different than 5db. You are talking about significant hearing loss, plus muzzle blast that will blind you, both incapacitating you. 9MM is as far as I will go for home defense.
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Or you could get a sound suppressor and not worry about the sound or the flash ;)
 
nealius said:
Or you could get a sound suppressor and not worry about the sound or the flash ;)
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Which, like a machine gun, is perfectly legal in most places -- IF you do it right. Fill out a form, pay a $200 tax and you're good to go.
 
I would use a 12 Gauge with a light load for home defense... A nice Pump with about 8 rounds in it.


If I couldn't get ahold of that, a pistol would be fine too...
 
ja_user said:
I would use a 12 Gauge with a light load for home defense... A nice Pump with about 8 rounds in it.
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I thought that too, until I found out just how ineffective things like #8 shot can be. IF a person were to keep a 12 gauge handy for home defense, I'd load the first round birdshot... second would be #4, after that it's time for a slug.

When we travel out in the back country, the .357 gets loaded similarly. First round or two is a shot shell for snakes and such; after that it gets serious.
 
marcoseddi said:
We should be allowed to purchase fully automatic machine guns. I'd like to conceal and carry that.. Hell I am in NJ I can't even dream of concealing and carry its unheard of..
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I'll chuckle at you trying to conceal it. :)

We have very reasonable laws about concealed carry here in Colorado, but there's a LOT of exceptions, and surprisingly in some municipalities it's far harder to open carry than concealed... Denver City and County being the main one.

Our history here is actually that NRA has done more harm than good overall... which isn't what their advertising will say when it shows up in the mail on glossy paper. ;)

http://www.rmgo.org/political/gun-laws

They're as much a part of the problem, as AOPA trying to convince people that the way to fly today is in new Cessnas. ;)
 
DaleB said:
I thought that too, until I found out just how ineffective things like #8 shot can be. IF a person were to keep a 12 gauge handy for home defense, I'd load the first round birdshot... second would be #4, after that it's time for a slug.

When we travel out in the back country, the .357 gets loaded similarly. First round or two is a shot shell for snakes and such; after that it gets serious.
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At what point in "home defense" is a slug or even 4 Shot required?

If you can't see them through a wall, you probably don't want to shoot through that wall.
All are still effective to 40-60 yards.. And none of that matters if they are running away...
 
ja_user said:
At what point in "home defense" is a slug or even 4 Shot required?
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When and if birdshot fails to stop the assailant.

Edit: Let me elaborate just a little. The chances of ever needing to use any gun for home or self defense are very, very small. The chance that you'd ever need to actually discharge a firearm is even smaller. The chance that, in the event you did need to shoot, a load of #8 wouldn't do the job is very small indeed. But if you ever got to that point... I'd say you're having a really bad day already, and it would be time to try something different.

If you happen to miss, #4 will probably not penetrate far enough to endanger the neighbor's house as 00 might. In any event, though, if you don't have a clear shot at close range, you have absolutely no business shooting at all, period. So - what you shoot, within reason, becomes less an issue.
 
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DaleB said:
When and if birdshot fails to stop the assailant.
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I bought by firearms because I enjoy shooting, I like to compete against myself and a paper target, I hope I am never put in a position where I need to defend myself, that being said, owning a firearm with only target round and not having correct ammo to defend your home is a little foolish

That being said..

On bird-shot, rubber rounds and all that crap:
This isnt the movies or candy land, besides we live in a very litigious society, if you are going to fire on a intruder it is for one reason, the goal is to transfer and disperse maximum energy into their body to render them no longer a threat PERIOD.

Also, Slugs and rifle rounds are not all that great of a idea, 00 buck and +P+ JHP for pistols, having a mounted tactical light also can make a good bit of difference if used properly.
 
DaleB said:
I thought that too, until I found out just how ineffective things like #8 shot can be. IF a person were to keep a 12 gauge handy for home defense, I'd load the first round birdshot... second would be #4, after that it's time for a slug.

When we travel out in the back country, the .357 gets loaded similarly. First round or two is a shot shell for snakes and such; after that it gets serious.
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Doesn't matter. A shotgun at close range as a defensive weapon is trained like a rifle. The scatter pattern isn't as big as most people think. And you fire until they stop doing whatever it was that triggered the need to fire.

Hickok45 on YouTube explains the spread myth pretty well... Plus he's fun to watch in his other videos.

Part I:

Part II:

Clint Smith demonstrates that with appropriate training and practice, even your grandpa's old double-barrel or single barrel is plenty of gun to be a true defensive weapon for the home.

I chuckle at his "doesn't matter... how much black paint it has on it" comment.


3 rounds of even just birdshot to the face will stop virtually anyone.

I also enjoy his semi-auto clearing video.
He made me laugh at his "Rhodes Scholars standing around inspecting a jam at the public range" comments toward the end of the video. Seen that. Stupid. Just clear the gun.


Defensive shooting is about training with a specific weapon and knowing it cold. The gun itself can be a $50 used shotgun or a $3000 Kimber. Doesn't matter at all -- until you know what the hell to do with it and practice.

Personally I wouldn't load slugs in a house defense situation. They're going to go through walls behind your target if you miss and kill your family members in the next room. Shot is fine. It's probably still going through most modern construction walls, but with somewhat reduced energy on the other side. Aim and hit what you're shooting at or don't shoot.
 
Nate, I thought the load didn't matter (I think that's what your point was) too -- until I started reading stories about birdshot loads inflicting relatively minor (and very survivable) damage. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

It's very true that a load of #8 to the face would be pretty tough to overcome. However... if the guy is close enough to justify using a shotgun, I'm pointing at center of mass. The first round will impart a good bit of shock and energy, which I figure would make most creatures stop whatever they are doing and reconsider. If that fails and they persist in being a threat, the second round won't be as gentle.

I doubt very seriously it would make a big difference at any range at which I would feel justified in using deadly force to begin with. I personally find it hard to believe that there would be an appreciable difference between #8 and 0 or 00 at, say, ten feet. But, better safe than sorry -- there's no real down side (IMHO) to a progressively heavier load. And of course the chance that it's all theoretical during the typical person's lifetime approaches five or six nines anyway. It's not something I'm going to expend a great deal of energy agonizing over. In fact, my 12 gauge pump guns all live in zipper cases. The only thing I consider a "home defense" gun is loaded with JHP.

And again, the very first rule of shooting in any case, be it self defense or hunting or just plinking, is -- as we've both stated -- hit what you're shooting at, or don't shoot.
 
I agree! What is absolutely the most important point is being copetitnent with whatever gun you have. The best 172 pilot on the planet is going to be in a serious jam if he is ever faced with having to land a B52 with no training.
The weapon you choose depends on you personal preference, confidence with that wepon and the most lickly expected mission. Every weapon just like aircraft has there own set of advantages and compriomises. Go to a range and talk to people and shoot as many different guns as you can. That will help you decide what you like. Most of all PRACTISE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE!.
You truly have know idea how you will react until the poo hits the fan. July 23 2011 my family was assaulted at gun point. I stepped between a man shooting wildly and my 7yo daughter to shield her from the shooter. That man is alive today only because I did not have a weapon with me. You truly never know what may happen and it probably won't be the situation you expected. It is best to be prepared for the worst.
 
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You can buy reduced recoil shotgun shells. They are more than adequate for close distance work. That's our duty round with short-barrel 870's and they work just fine.
 
ZG_Mooney said:
If you like big handguns like the 1911, .40, .45, .357, etc, rest assured, so do I, but they are really only good for the range or for open carry. If you are expecting a fire fight, they are not your weapon of choice. If you unexpectedly encounter a fire fight, they will probably be in your center console because you got tired of walking around with a giant bulge in your pants.
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I carry just about everywhere I go, other than work (where it's prohibited). I have, and regularly do, carry the following (in rough order of preference): S&W 4013, H&K USP Fullsize, 1911, and a Glock 23.

When I first started carrying, it was an even less ergonomic pistol than any of these, and I was in a very blue state. I was constantly paranoid that I was showing, and bought a smaller gun as soon as I had the cash. Now, after being armed > 50% of my waking hours for more than 15 years, I don't even think about it any more. Any of the above mentioned guns can be concealed totally effectively. I've even stopped bothering with IWB carry most of the time. I simply use a standard OWB holster (and a good, stiff belt) and throw a shirt over the top. These days 99% of men over the age of majority have something clipped to their belt in a leather case, iPhone, Leatherman, whatever. I've never been confronted about being armed, even if the bottom half-inch of the holster is poking out under my shirt.

As always YMMV, but in my experience "fear of printing" is WAY overrated. Try OC on a weekend some time (if it's legal in your area) and once you're amazed at the lack of care the general public shows when your weapon is fully exposed, you'll not care one bit about CC a "large" gun.
 
livitup said:
I
As always YMMV, but in my experience "fear of printing" is WAY overrated. Try OC on a weekend some time (if it's legal in your area) and once you're amazed at the lack of care the general public shows when your weapon is fully exposed, you'll not care one bit about CC a "large" gun.
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I agree 100%. I wear my Bersa with a standard leather belt holster and when I feel like concealing I'll just pull my shirt over it. I'd bet that the only people who could correctly identify the printing of a concealed gun are the people who are carry also....
 
pikespeakmtnman said:
I agree 100%. I wear my Bersa with a standard leather belt holster and when I feel like concealing I'll just pull my shirt over it. I'd bet that the only people who could correctly identify the printing of a concealed gun are the people who are carry also....
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Probably a lot of truth to that. There are different levels of "concealed" though. Can't spot it from 10 feet? Can't tell at arm's length? Co-workers or clients can't tell sitting next to you around a conference table? Your spouse or child can't tell when giving you a hug?

My wife doesn't like guns. She likes that I have them, and carry them, because she feels safer, but would rather not be constantly reminded. That probably is a big part of why I carry guns with a very small print, and put them in a soft in-pocket holster to break it up. That and I have to wear tucked-in dress shirts at work, so an OWB = open carry for me.
 
Seriously, I will take a 12 gauge with 6-8 shot and a shorter barrel anyday. within 40-50 yards there is no better way to stop someone.. You aren't trying to knock down a deer or bear here, you are trying to knock a big hole and stop someone... And at the same time not blow through for walls and two other houses..
 
Non Buyers Remorse 800 for an eclipse ii kimber 1400 gun for 800 shot a few times.. really such a sexy gun sold in a day feel like i should have bought it. Although all the reviews of horrible service and the possibilities of issues with the gun...
 
Kimbers are nice guns, but when you pay that much you expect things to just work. How come a $500 glock or Springfield can feed any ammo, without issues or rusting.. And the $1k models can't pull it off?

Did Bose make it for them?
 
Fwiw most ballistic testing indicates that bird shot achieves nowhere near the needed level of penetration to stop a man. You really should be running 00 buckshot in a 12 gauge for self defense purposes.
 
jesse said:
Fwiw most ballistic testing indicates that bird shot achieves nowhere near the needed level of penetration. You really should be running 00 buckshot in a 12 gauge for self defense purposes.
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From 80 yards or so, sure.. I thought we were talking Home defense here though, meaning inside the house.. 30-40 feet max?

You are saying there isn't enough from that distance?
 
jesse said:
Fwiw most ballistic testing indicates that bird shot achieves nowhere near the needed level of penetration to stop a man. You really should be running 00 buckshot in a 12 gauge for self defense purposes.
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Agreed. I believe in a bare minimum of #4.

ja_user said:
From 80 yards or so, sure.. I thought we were talking Home defense here though, meaning inside the house.. 30-40 feet max?

You are saying there isn't enough from that distance?
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People get shot all the time with bird-shot and live. Look at the Cheney incident. Go to just about any public dove hunting field on opening day and you'll probably see at least one happen within 50yds. I know I've seen it. Most thick clothing, especially leather, will be adequate protection for about any bird-shot past point-blank range.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Agreed. I believe in a bare minimum of #4.

People get shot all the time with bird-shot and live. Look at the Cheney incident. Go to just about any public dove hunting field on opening day and you'll probably see at least one happen within 50yds. I know I've seen it. Most thick clothing, especially leather, will be adequate protection for about any bird-shot past point-blank range.
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I could see #4's...

Buckshot I don't see being needed, or prudent indoors.

Yeah, I have been peppered before, most bird hunters have been. But not within 50 yards, for sure... I certainly wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of it.. Are we talking just blows him over, or he just shrugs it on and laughs? I would like to read whatever we are refering to as a resource.
 
ja_user said:
Yeah, I have been peppered before, most bird hunters have been. But not within 50 yards, for sure...
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I am reminded of an interesting experience I had when helping out at a Scout camp. There is a trap range set up with shooting positions on one side of a ravine. The other side of the ravine is maybe 40 yards off, tops. While shooting at clays, you'll see deer calmly chomping away at leaves on the other side of the ravine. They know exactly how far the birdshot will travel, and will stay a couple of steps out of range. I was surprised at how close they were; I'd have thought even #7 or #8 would have gone farther.

Of course if someone were to show up with a load of anything between BB and 00, they would be (briefly) very surprised.
 
DaleB said:
I am reminded of an interesting experience I had when helping out at a Scout camp. There is a trap range set up with shooting positions on one side of a ravine. The other side of the ravine is maybe 40 yards off, tops. While shooting at clays, you'll see deer calmly chomping away at leaves on the other side of the ravine. They know exactly how far the birdshot will travel, and will stay a couple of steps out of range. I was surprised at how close they were; I'd have thought even #7 or #8 would have gone farther.

Of course if someone were to show up with a load of anything between BB and 00, they would be (briefly) very surprised.
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Yeah, the trap range I used to go to in St. Louis was similar, in that there would be deer grazing every hour of the day in the middle of the field. A bit farther than 40yds, but not by a lot.

Most people greatly misunderstand the power (or lack there of) of the shotgun, and overestimate it's spread and effectiveness. You really do have to just go out to the field with sever boxes of a variety of rounds, and a much of material to shoot, in particular building materials. That way you'll see first hand how well your rig will work for your situation.
 
Cheney stopped shooting. ;)

Side-note: I'd REALLY love to know what really went down that day. Just knowing there were at least two HEAVILY trained firearms experts accompanying those idiots, who don't miss things like VP's swinging guns anywhere but downrange and/or finger trigger discipline problems, or whatever other stupidity caused that... makes me not believe the official story.

We won't know until that bionic heart stops ticking and the last person there is the only one left alive though. Heh.
 
ja_user said:
I could see #4's...

Buckshot I don't see being needed, or prudent indoors.

Yeah, I have been peppered before, most bird hunters have been. But not within 50 yards, for sure... I certainly wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of it.. Are we talking just blows him over, or he just shrugs it on and laughs? I would like to read whatever we are refering to as a resource.
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Correct -- even in doors -- significant testing has been done on this. If you're going to use it you need it and it damn well better work. You're really wanting to be using 1 or 00 buckshot. #1 just seems hard to find sometimes compared to 00.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/mediapages/ArticleDetail.aspx?mediaid=635

You're not going to find any firearms experts advising you use birdshot. The penetration just isn't there. Plenty of other detailed articles involving testing with ballistic gel, drywall, etc. Just remember: #1 or #00.
 
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