Bombshell

Mason said:
Actually, I think you are correct about one thing. Any rehab program that would accept you as an inpatient is going to do an intake evaluation. The best ones usually have a waiting list. They don't need you if you don't need them. Any insurance company that is going to pay for it, is going to want that evaluation.


If you don't need it and they can say that, you can then move on.

As far as AA goes, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
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Yeah thats what I'm saying. In which case I would be better off doing the inpatient route because they would say I don't need it so I could go to the next step. I think they would fast track me through a lot of it based on their findings and I would probably mainly have to just do the urine tests.

I also feel like I would be disrespecting those in AA who are there for the recovery, sitting in their safe haven just to please the FAA to get a pilots license.
 
bob8619 said:
I also feel like I would be disrespecting those in AA who are there for the recovery, sitting in their safe haven just to please the FAA to get a pilots license.
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FYI, been there. As a teenager who got an MIP for alcohol possession, I was court ordered into Alcoholics Anonymous for 10 sessions. I felt that I was disrespecting everyone else, and when they made me speak, I refused to say "I'm Nick and I'm a alcoholic," which made everyone try to "help" me by telling me things like "I remember how good it felt when I finally admitted my problem to myself," and other stuff.

Using AA for non-alcoholics is just another way that the government REALLY misses the mark when it comes to alcohol.
 
Henning said:
You still haven't answered directly if your medical has been submitted to the FAA yet.
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Oh sorry I thought I said it previously, maybe not. Yes the FAA has my application. I didn't know at the time that a 12 year old DUI would be so serious for a medical certificate so I jumped in with both feet. Didn't help that the AME was sitting there telling me its old enough to not matter. :mad2:
 
In my opinion, the correct advice has been supplied, encouraged and now, unfortunately, chosen to be ignored. I can really empathize with Bruce about him demonstrating the right way to get certification done and then being told, "no, that's not for me, Imcan do this better."

If you are not willing to put in the work the way it's been. Plainly laid out for you, then perhaps possessing the certificate isn't for you.

Finally, since we have reached the real of porcine operatic lessons, I pulling a Pontious Pilate, and am leaving the thread.

Best of luck to you Bob.
 
AggieMike88 said:
In my opinion, the correct advice has been supplied, encouraged and now, unfortunately, chosen to be ignored. I can really empathize with Bruce about him demonstrating the right way to get certification done and then being told, "no, that's not for me, Imcan do this better."

If you are not willing to put in the work the way it's been. Plainly laid out for you, then perhaps possessing the certificate isn't for you.

Finally, since we have reached the real of porcine operatic lessons, I pulling a Pontious Pilate, and am leaving the thread.

Best of luck to you Bob.
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Thanks Mike. But for the record I haven't told Bruce no. I'm just shopping around so to speak in hopes of finding a method similar to what I described. I'm still waiting to hear from him in regards to if they literally just shove you into an inpatient rehab or if they evaluate your level of need first.
 
bob8619 said:
Oh sorry I thought I said it previously, maybe not. Yes the FAA has my application. I didn't know at the time that a 12 year old DUI would be so serious for a medical certificate so I jumped in with both feet. Didn't help that the AME was sitting there telling me its old enough to not matter. :mad2:
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Ok, like I said at the beginning of the thread, at this point do nothing until you get the letter back from the FAA that says what they want. You are putting the cart before the horse here. Until you get that letter, you don't know if they have denied your medical or not. If they have, they will spell out what they want from you in that letter, heck, it may contain your medical. At this point you are 'deferred' not denied. Unless Bruce already talked to them on the phone and knows the outcome, you don't know anything.
 
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SkyHog said:
FYI, been there. As a teenager who got an MIP for alcohol possession, I was court ordered into Alcoholics Anonymous for 10 sessions. I felt that I was disrespecting everyone else, and when they made me speak, I refused to say "I'm Nick and I'm a alcoholic," which made everyone try to "help" me by telling me things like "I remember how good it felt when I finally admitted my problem to myself," and other stuff.

Using AA for non-alcoholics is just another way that the government REALLY misses the mark when it comes to alcohol.
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Agreed. I would say that I definitely abused alcohol in my younger years which in some circles is considered alcoholism, so I don't want to say that I have not been in a "problematic" state in terms of booze but I just know at this point, it has no pull me and I don't drink it. I didn't use AA to stop drinking I just quit so I cant even go in there and be an advocate for the program because Im not one of their success stories. Just feels disrespectful to go in their for something as trivial as pilot license when a lot of them in there are struggling and hurting immensely.
 
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I'm going to try to recap for my own benefit:

OP goes to AME for first Class 3. Reports DUI and felonies.

AME doesn't issue, he defers to OKC.

OP hasn't gotten word back from OKC yet, checks in here on what to expect.

Board recommends Doc Chien.

OP consults Doc Chien. Doc tries to be proactive and tells OP what FAA will want.

OP has not gotten a letter back, yet, from FAA with what they will want.

--

Did I miss anything? Has FAA actually sent a letter yet?
 
Matthew said:
I'm going to try to recap for my own benefit:

OP goes to AME for first Class 3. Reports DUI and felonies.

AME doesn't issue, he defers to OKC.

OP hasn't gotten word back from OKC yet, checks in here on what to expect.

Board recommends Doc Chien.

OP consults Doc Chien. Doc tries to be proactive and tells OP what FAA will want.

OP has not gotten a letter back, yet, from FAA with what they will want.

--

Did I miss anything? Has FAA actually sent a letter yet?
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No sir no letter yet. I've just come to believe its inevitable based on what I've read.
 
bob8619 said:
Yeah thats what I'm saying. In which case I would be better off doing the inpatient route because they would say I don't need it so I could go to the next step. I think they would fast track me through a lot of it based on their findings and I would probably mainly have to just do the urine tests.
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I think you have your answer right there.
 
bob8619 said:
No sir no letter yet. I've just come to believe its inevitable based on what I've read.
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Any medical has one of two outcomes: issued or denied. There might be a letter asking for more info before the final decision is made - and there will be a time limit. Doc Chien seems pretty sure, based on what you told him, what FAA will require. You can either start now and get a jump on it, or wait (maybe 3-4 months) for the letter before you get started. It's up to you. If you don't want to risk the expenses now, you can wait until you get the letter so you will know for sure what you'll need to do.
 
bob8619 said:
Agreed. I would say that I definitely abused alcohol in my younger years which in some circles is consider alcoholism, so I don't want to say that I have not been in a "problematic" state in terms of booze but I just know at this point, it has no pull me and I don't drink it. I didn't use AA to stop drinking I just quit so I cant even go in there and be an advocate for the program because Im not one of their success stories. Just feels disrespectful to go in their for something as trivial as pilot license when a lot of them in there are struggling and hurting immensely.
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I'm surely no expert but I believe this is the basic point of AA, in that they present their program for anyone that has had an alcohol episode at any time in their history. So - you are saying you abused it as a teen(illegal) and now you've got it under control, all by yourself and you don't need anyone.

The FAA, right or wrong doesn't believe you, since you've shown a propensity to backslide. They want you to confront the demons you say you don't have(and maybe you are right and they are wrong). So, if you want to go fly in MY airspace now, you need to expiate your demon, you need to stand up, in front of a bunch of strangers, say the words, take the cure, and whether you are no longer under the thumb of demon rum anymore, it's what you have to do to get your pilot license.

You seem like a straight-up guy so stand up at the meeting and be as fact based as you feel comfy with. Say 'hi, my name is Bob. I'm not an alky, I am hear because it's a required step in getting my medical cert to fly a plane'. Etc, ad-infinitum. I don't know how it will go over with them, you may get ridiculed, you may be accepted but if it's true, what do you care?

One more thing. Doc Bruce has given you a couple hours of free advice, on a highly professional level, with no recompense. I would say at a min you should send him a consultation check if you decide to go elsewhere. There are other AMEs, there are other Sr AMEs, you might hit the jackpot and one of them will write you up a 3rd class right there in his office. But - within a few months, a letter will come to you, first class mail, from OK city OK, and it will tell you that your medical has been REVOKED, and you need to SURRENDER it or face fines, and admin actions. Once that happens, you can think of these nice folks on POA who said 'I so told you thusly'. (shameless TBBT reference) ;)
 
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bob8619 said:
Agreed. I would say that I definitely abused alcohol in my younger years which in some circles is considered alcoholism, so I don't want to say that I have not been in a "problematic" state in terms of booze but I just know at this point, it has no pull me and I don't drink it. I didn't use AA to stop drinking I just quit so I cant even go in there and be an advocate for the program because Im not one of their success stories. Just feels disrespectful to go in their for something as trivial as pilot license when a lot of them in there are struggling and hurting immensely.
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If everything you're told us is true, you were a habitual offender from your teens at least well into your twenties (four years ago). I'm going to assume that drugs and/or alcohol were involved in at least some of your offenses besides the DUI. I'm also going to take a wild guess that you weren't caught and convicted for every offense you committed. Your protestations regarding what a good guy you are and how you have no problems in need of treatment aren't selling it for me. Of course I'm well known as a tough sell. But from what I hear, so's Dr. Bruce.

Oh yeah, and since, according to your first post, your AME said you're not going to have a problem, did he issue you a medical? Or did he defer it? If the latter, you'll know what to do after you get the letter from OKC.
 
docmirror said:
I'm surely no expert but I believe this is the basic point of AA, in that they present their program for anyone that has had an alcohol episode at any time in their history. So - you are saying you abused it as a teen(illegal) and now you've got it under control, all by yourself and you don't need anyone.

The FAA, right or wrong doesn't believe you, since you've shown a propensity to backslide. They want you to confront the demons you say you don't have(and maybe you are right and they are wrong). So, if you want to go fly in MY airspace now, you need to expiate your demon, you need to stand up, in front of a bunch of strangers, say the words, take the cure, and whether you are no longer under the thumb of demon rum anymore, it's what you have to do to get your pilot license.

You seem like a straight-up guy so stand up at the meeting and be as fact based as you feel comfy with. Say 'hi, my name is Bob. I'm not an alky, I am hear because it's a required step in getting my medical cert to fly a plane'. Etc, ad-infinitum. I don't know how it will go over with them, you may get ridiculed, you may be accepted but if it's true, what do you care?

One more thing. Doc Bruce has given you a couple hours of fee advice, on a highly professional level, with no recompense. I would say at a min you should send him a consultation check if you decide to go elsewhere. There are other AMEs, there are other Sr AMEs, you might hit the jackpot and one of them will write you up a 3rd class right there in his office. But - within a few months, a letter will come to you, first class mail, from OK city OK, and it will tell you that your medical has been REVOKED, and you need to SURRENDER it or face fines, and admin actions. Once that happens, you can think of these nice folks on POA who said 'I so told you thusly'. (shameless TBBT reference) ;)
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They don't have to believe me, thats what the psychiatric evaluation would be used for, thats the point here. Evaluate the person if you want to get to the bottom of it, you cant fix something without knowing whats broken or not broken. And for the backsliding risk, thats what the continued evals and drug testing is for.

And why would I get a revoked medical months after receiving one?
 
Lindberg said:
If everything you're told us is true, you were a habitual offender from your teens at least well into your twenties (four years ago). I'm going to assume that drugs and/or alcohol were involved in at least some of your offenses besides the DUI. I'm also going to take a wild guess that you weren't caught and convicted for every offense you committed. Your protestations regarding what a good guy you are and how you have no problems in need of treatment aren't selling it for me. Of course I'm well known as a tough sell. But from what I hear, so's Dr. Bruce.

Oh yeah, and since, according to your first post, your AME said you're not going to have a problem, did he issue you a medical? Or did he defer it? If the latter, you'll know what to do after you get the letter from OKC.
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With all due respect, I'm not trying to sell it to you. I'm not trying to blindly sell it to the FAA either. I'm prepared to back it up with however many drug/alcohol tests as they can throw at me and as many evaluations that they want to give me. In no way shape or form am I wanting someone to take my word for anything, as I've said countless times I am wanting evaluations to determine what I need and dont need.
 
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bob8619 said:
And why would I get a revoked medical months after receiving one?
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You DO have your medical?

If so: Your AME still had to send all the paperwork to OKC. I don't know how they screen them, but they do. Enough red flags and the OKC docs look at it. If they see something they don't like (AMEs make mistakes, too), they will revoke your medical until you can satisfy them.
 
bob8619 said:
And why would I get a revoked medical months after receiving one?
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Because the AME who issued it exceeded their authority to issue. Your case goes directly to OKC, not in your wallet.

I gotta tell you - your attitude here, if the FAA gets wind of it will make any chance of getting your 3rd class more remote. And there is some anecdotal evidence that the FAA reads web blogs.

I'm done giving advice. Best of luck, hope it works out. :cheerswine:
 
Matthew said:
You DO have your medical?

If so: Your AME still had to send all the paperwork to OKC. I don't know how they screen them, but they do. Enough red flags and the OKC docs look at it. If they see something they don't like (AMEs make mistakes, too), they will revoke your medical until you can satisfy them.
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No I dont have it,that guy made up the story that if i find a doctor to issue me one I will get a revocation notice months later. I'm wondering why he says that too.
 
docmirror said:
Because the AME who issued it exceeded their authority to issue. Your case goes directly to OKC, not in your wallet.

I gotta tell you - your attitude here, if the FAA gets wind of it will make any chance of getting your 3rd class more remote. And there is some anecdotal evidence that the FAA reads web blogs.

I'm done giving advice. Best of luck, hope it works out. :cheerswine:
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You say that like I'm searching for a doctor to illegally issue me medical, where are you getting that idea from? I never said I'm looking to lie my way around anything nor am I looking for shortcuts. I'm looking for a reasonable approach like (once again) being evaluated to make sure I'm needing rehab.

And what attitude? I've only been matter of fact here, no name calling or anything. If it comes across as rude I apologize. Which medical exam tests for niceness though?
 
bob8619 said:
No I dont have it,that guy made up the story that if i find a doctor to issue me one I will get a revocation notice months later. I'm wondering why he says that too.
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Ahh. You did get deferred.

If you were to go to another doc to try to get one, and did, FAA would revoke it as soon as they realized you already had one in process.

I think the confusion came because you asked about seeing another doc for advice or assistance.

I still think the simple thing is: start the process that Doc Chien recommends, or wait for the letter. You can call FAA medical and ask about your status, that sometimes speeds up the process.

Don't argue too much about the AA requirement. FAA has taken that route for a long time. As others said, with the high BAC you had, FAA considers that as a sign of abuse - you need to show them those days are over, and you need to do it their way.
 
Matthew said:
Ahh. You did get deferred.

If you were to go to another doc to try to get one, and did, FAA would revoke it as soon as they realized you already had one in process.

I think the confusion came because you asked about seeing another doc for advice or assistance.

I still think the simple thing is: start the process that Doc Chien recommends, or wait for the letter. You can call FAA medical and ask about your status, that sometimes speeds up the process.

Don't argue too much about the AA requirement. FAA has taken that route for a long time. As others said, with the high BAC you had, FAA considers that as a sign of abuse - you need to show them those days are over, and you need to do it their way.
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Oh I get it, yeah I wasn't meaning trying a different doc to try getting a medical certificate , I meant talk to other docs to see if there was any other evaluation based programs as opposed to the straight to treatment program.

Which, for all I know, maybe their current program does in fact start out with an evaluation. Which would be great. Thats all I'm looking for, evaluation first to merely lighten the load. I'm sure most if not all of you are very confident that if you had an evaluation for substance abuse, that you would pass it. I too know that about myself and it can be proven if they will just evaluate me first. :yesnod:
 
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The way that every speaks highly of Dr Bruce led me to believe that this wasn't a "set in stone" system in place. Implying that one AME is better than others at this situation suggests that there are tricks or different methods that can be used, like one can pull strings etc.. If this system is set in place with no way to customize it, how does one doctor outperform another?
 
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bob8619 said:
The way that every speaks highly of Dr Bruce led me to believe that this wasn't a "set in stone" system in place. Implying that one AME is better than others at this situation suggests that there are tricks or different methods that can be used, like one can pull strings etc.. If this system is set in place with no way to customize it, how does one doctor outperform another?
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Not all AMEs are good, like any other profession. Some make mistakes that can cost someone a medical.

Some AMEs are more than pencil pushers and will be your advocate in dealing with FAA. Some AMEs are actually working with FAA to modify their procedures for dealing with certain types of cases. Doc Chien does both of the these. He gets a lot of recommendations from members of this board because he used to post here, and answer questions here, and some of us used him for our own medicals.
 
In no way an expert here, but I'd think if you test clean, you'll get the medical eventually. The third class is pretty much lame as it is, with no metrics to show it's been of any value for safety of flight. Not sure if it's an empire building thing at FAA, or a cash cow way to keep enough AMEs in the fold to do medicals.

But I digress - your recognition that you'll have to document your soundness is all the "positive" attitude you'll need. I doubt a professional at the FAA, doctor or bureaucrat, gives a rats butt what your personal view point is, one way or the other. Unless they happen to not be very professional.

Keep a close audit trail, of the chronology of events and documents, as you go forward The Feds are stop, stumble, and fall when it comes to keeping track of actions. You might have to re-re-send docs, or even supply them copies of their correspondence to you. Good luck!
 
Matthew said:
Not all AMEs are good, like any other profession. Some make mistakes that can cost someone a medical.

Some AMEs are more than pencil pushers and will be your advocate in dealing with FAA. Some AMEs are actually working with FAA to modify their procedures for dealing with certain types of cases. Doc Chien does both of the these. He gets a lot of recommendations from members of this board because he used to post here, and answer questions here, and some of us used him for our own medicals.
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Oh, yeah that makes sense, thanks. I was thinking of it more along the lines that they just verify that I satisfy the terms of the program and then do whatever they do to get the medical.

Well hopefully I will hear from him tomorrow in regards to the exact process of the inpatient rehab route, if its eval first I am signing up on the spot.

I hope that if I did lose his guidance that he would at least tell me that he can't help me. He did seem frustrated when I asked him to clarify the "absolutely so" thing. He missed that typo twice and I maybe the one who pays the price for trying to find out what he meant... :(
 
bob8619 said:
The way that every speaks highly of Dr Bruce led me to believe that this wasn't a "set in stone" system in place. Implying that one AME is better than others at this situation suggests that there are tricks or different methods that can be used, like one can pull strings etc.. If this system is set in place with no way to customize it, how does one doctor outperform another?
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By making sure all the information the FAA wants is all there and exactly how they want it before submitting it. What your guy did was risk your ability to fly Sport Pilot until you get all the requirements done.
 
Sundancer said:
In no way an expert here, but I'd think if you test clean, you'll get the medical eventually. The third class is pretty much lame as it is, with no metrics to show it's been of any value for safety of flight. Not sure if it's an empire building thing at FAA, or a cash cow way to keep enough AMEs in the fold to do medicals.

But I digress - your recognition that you'll have to document your soundness is all the "positive" attitude you'll need. I doubt a professional at the FAA, doctor or bureaucrat, gives a rats butt what your personal view point is, one way or the other. Unless they happen to not be very professional.

Keep a close audit trail, of the chronology of events and documents, as you go forward The Feds are stop, stumble, and fall when it comes to keeping track of actions. You might have to re-re-send docs, or even supply them copies of their correspondence to you. Good luck!
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Thanks sundog!
@
 
Henning said:
By making sure all the information the FAA wants is all there and exactly how they want it before submitting it. What your guy did was risk your ability to fly Sport Pilot until you get all the requirements done.
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Yeah I started wondering if he just wanted to collect his money and sugar coated my ordeal.
 
Henning said:
By making sure all the information the FAA wants is all there and exactly how they want it before submitting it. What your guy did was risk your ability to fly Sport Pilot until you get all the requirements done.
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Good example, but might not be fair.

If the OP had said, "Doc, I want a class 3 but I have a history..." AME could have said, "Hmmm... Yeah, I see. Here's what FAA will want. If you get it all done, and turn it all in, FAA will issue. Or, you can drop it right now and not lose your ability to fly light sport."

What I think happened: OP said, "Doc, I want a class 3 and here's ny Medexpress code." Once the AME types that code in, it's game on and his hands are tied.
 
Yeah you have it right Matthew. I actually applied for 2nd class because the price was the same.

I gave him the code and off we went.
 
I told him about the legal problems and he said I need to write them a letter explaining in detail and thats all he said except for when he said "12 years ago for the DUI? they probably wont care". HA
 
This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach really. It feels just like it did back when the legal problems were fresh. I never thought I'd experience this type of feeling again especially in the pursuit of my flying dreams, this was supposed to be fun.
 
bob8619 said:
I told him about the legal problems and he said I need to write them a letter explaining in detail and thats all he said except for when he said "12 years ago for the DUI? they probably wont care". HA
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He could have said:
"You are screwed."
"You'll need to do <whatever Doc Chien recommends>."
"Let's just wait and see what the letter says."
"12 years ago for the DUI? They probably won't care."

Who knows? Maybe they really won't care?
 
That would be very cool. If not, just let me have a doggone evaluation!! :lol:
 
So Dr Bruce said they evaluate first, however he said that the FAA may or may not care if the psychiatrist says I'm good to go and they MIGHT still want me to attend a rehab.

But Dr Bruce said he has had some success in getting guys their medical with just a clear psychiatrist evaluation and 6 months of drug testing. So there are subtle variations to the process.
 
Hi All. Just wanted to post an update for anyone who had interest in this uphill battle of mine.

Today I received the letter from the FAA requesting additional information and, lo and behold they are not requesting any further information about my DUI. They only want my driving record from the last 10 years and a detailed explanation about my last arrest in 2011.

I am happy but I am not counting my chickens before they hatch.
 
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bob8619 said:
Hi All. Just wanted to post an update for anyone who had interest in this uphill battle of mine.

Today I received the letter from the FAA requesting additional information and, lo and behold they are not requesting any further information about my DUI. They only want my driving record from the last 10 years and a detailed explanation about my last arrest in 2011.

I am happy but I am not counting my chickens before they hatch.
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Best of luck! i hope you get your medical
 
Thanks Mike. The only options for my driving record here are 3 year 7 year or full record so I had to get the full record. The record shows the blood alcohol content from my DUI so if they really study it they will notice that. That may make them suddenly care about the DUI again. Oh well though, can only do what I can do.
 
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