Bombshell

bob8619 said:
I just think there has to be a doctor out there who isn't so "one size fits all". Even after my DUI the first step was an evaluation to see if I needed counseling and AA. They didn't just ship me into alcohol counseling.

Surely theres a doc somewhere that would rather have me evaluated before just saying that "option A is inpatient rehab, option B is AA for 2 years". Those would be suitable for a fresh drug/alcohol infraction but is there really no consideration given to the fact that mine is over a decade old? I mean what kind of inpatient rehab would even take a patient before making sure they were in need of rehab?
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Dr. Bruce is pretty much the best guy to go to. He's the one that the FAA listens to. Unfortunately in this case, Dr Bruce is simply the messenger. It's the FAA that's saying what you have to do.
 
He is a real belt and suspenders guy. The things he is recommending are to make sure there is no question you will pass the medical. You might be able to find another AME that will say, "Ahh, you don't need all that stuff, this will do. Trust me." That might work, maybe. But Doc Chien will leave no doubt.

Some things the FAA takes a hard line on. In those cases you have to prove to them you are a good risk, or no risk, and too often that is an expensive proposition. Expensive in time and money.
 
Matthew said:
He is a real belt and suspenders guy. The things he is recommending are to make sure there is no question you will pass the medical. You might be able to find another AME that will say, "Ahh, you don't need all that stuff, this will do. Trust me." That might work, maybe. But Doc Chien will leave no doubt.

Some things the FAA takes a hard line on. In those cases you have to prove to them you are a good risk, or no risk, and too often that is an expensive proposition. Expensive in time and money.
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From the sounds of it, he has already "done it" and is waiting for his letter from the FAA.
 
Unless they run their own rehab facility, no rehab will take a patient without first doing an eval. If they really want to make sure someone is safe to clear medically they will want to know, via an evaluation, that the person is fit. You just don't force someone into rehab without making sure its required, if its not required it wastes everyones time. Broken record I know. I'm all for the drug/alcohol testing and multiple evaluations, those would be a very valuable tool for them, forced rehab, eh not so much. I know its not up to me, I'm just sharing my thoughts.


I believe that Dr Bruce will indeed lead me to the medical certificate, in fact he said its 100% certain that I would succeed. However, my gut tells me to roll the dice and find one of the doctors who will think outside the box.
 
To be clear here in case there is any confusion, I'm not trying to beat the system and slip through the cracks. I'm willing to prove my sound state of mind and sobriety but there just has to be a way to do it in a more effective manner.
 
You blew a .19, the fact that you weren't in a coma shows a high tolerance. The fact that you haven't had another dui doesn't prove you haven't stopped, it proves you haven't got caught. The FAA wants you to PROVE you have changed, two ways to do it, inhouse rehab or two years. You get to choose. I'm not being an a$$, but you don't seem to understand that it's the FAA, not the doctor.
 
bob8619 said:
I believe that Dr Bruce will indeed lead me to the medical certificate, in fact he said its 100% certain that I would succeed. However, my gut tells me to roll the dice and find one of the doctors who will think outside the box.
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Its a suckers bet.

Reread Post #10

I have been down this road.
 
Take the sure thing or take a chance in order to save a buck or some time?
 
bob8619 said:
His reply to me asking him to confirm what he said:

"Robert, I laid it all out. Wishing it were not so can't make it so.


No, you will not get a certificate of any sort until one of the routes below has been completed. ReRead it if you must.

In business, "no" may mean "ask again". But in regulatory matters, "no" is just that. You do undestand the meaining of "no?", right….:("
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Sometimes, Bruce isn't aware of his typo's. Hopefully he didn't take your request for clarifying "Absolutly so" in the wrong vein of you trying to short circuit his instructions. We know you weren't, but when airmen do that to him, it's one of the fastest ways for them to be dropped as a client.

Best is to continue to be honest and humble and follow his directions.

As you proceed in the journey to document your sobriety, do look into other flying opportunities such as gliders. This way you get to be around aviation, have chances to enjoy flying, and perhaps be a better student for powered flight once you clear the required hurdles.
 
Mike I've seen stories where people have gotten their medical with a dui on their record JUST by sending the FAA the requested court documents. So that alone tells me that there ARE other ways than those two ways to do it. Maybe the most common way is the rehab or two years but I'm not so sure its the only two ways.

I'm fully aware that they want me to prove sobriety. And I'm willing to do so. My whole gripe here is how they are supposedly "proving" it. Rehab without an eval to determine the LEVEL of dependence or LACK THEIROF is not proving anything. That is all I'm talking about here. The doctor vs FAA statement is irrelevant.
 
This is for your very first medical. If you do it right, this could very well be a one-time hassle.

You are always free to get a second opinion. Ask for a referral to a first class AME near you.
 
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I am well aware of people getting their medical with a dui, I am one. I blew a .05, you blew .19, that really is the difference. However, wait and see what the letter says, maybe because it was 12 years ago the will only want driving records, wait and see. I wish you the best.
 
If they trust their psychiatrists then they should be using them to determine if someone needs help in the first place.
 
bob8619 said:
I believe that Dr Bruce will indeed lead me to the medical certificate, in fact he said its 100% certain that I would succeed. However, my gut tells me to roll the dice and find one of the doctors who will think outside the box.
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bob8619 said:
To be clear here in case there is any confusion, I'm not trying to beat the system and slip through the cracks. I'm willing to prove my sound state of mind and sobriety but there just has to be a way to do it in a more effective manner.
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Ummmm. I take your second post here as a desire to circumvent a sure thing and try to slip by the standard and certainty that Breuce has already laid out for you.

Saying that you are going to seek a short cut has you loosing a few steps of respect from me when you shared what Bruce said you need to do and you were willing to do that.

As someone said just a few posts back, the FAA has a very dim view of folks with a violent alcoholic past and it is to you to prove to them you are very little or no risk to them and yourself.

Yes it is a two year and expensive journey, but the small sacrifice of time and cash could mean that the FAA never bothers you about this stuff again as long as you stay out of trouble and don't bend any metal (aka do something that initiates an investigation).

You are encouraged to do this the way Bruce laid out. If you choose the short cut, I won't blame Bruce for cutting you out and keeping you from the sure thing.
 
Matthew said:
This is for your very first medical. If you do it right, this could very well be a one-time hassle.

You are always free to get a second opinion. Ask for a referral to a first class AME near you.
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Better if he goes to see one of the few HIMS AME's that might become his local sponsor.
 
bob8619 said:
Unless they run their own rehab facility, no rehab will take a patient without first doing an eval. If they really want to make sure someone is safe to clear medically they will want to know, via an evaluation, that the person is fit. You just don't force someone into rehab without making sure its required, if its not required it wastes everyones time. Broken record I know. I'm all for the drug/alcohol testing and multiple evaluations, those would be a very valuable tool for them, forced rehab, eh not so much. I know its not up to me, I'm just sharing my thoughts.


I believe that Dr Bruce will indeed lead me to the medical certificate, in fact he said its 100% certain that I would succeed. However, my gut tells me to roll the dice and find one of the doctors who will think outside the box.
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Go for it, but in this case "outside the box" means you lie on the medical application. Have you, or have you not, seen an AME who submitted the results from your medical examination to the FAA? Does the FAA now know you exist? There is no AME that is going to risk their designation with the FAA to give you a medical "outside the box". When you fill out the medical form, and give the AME the code to submit, and they submit it, then you are ****ed. If you have already done that, you are ****ed. If you have not done that, then your option is to lie and hope to not get caught. The other option is to 'think outside the box' for yourself and just take enough lessons to get you to the point of solo, buy a plane, and just fly it. Quite a few people out there flying with no certificate or medical. The only reason you 'need' either to fly privately is to be insurable.

The FAA isn't rehab, they don't give a **** if you ever fly or get rehabbed. All they want is evidence that it has happened.
 
bob8619 said:
To be clear here in case there is any confusion, I'm not trying to beat the system and slip through the cracks. I'm willing to prove my sound state of mind and sobriety but there just has to be a way to do it in a more effective manner.
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There is not, the FAA has their system, end of story, not up for discussion. Bruce gave you the options the FAA presents to you, it's not up in the AME's purview to create more options.
 
bob8619 said:
I believe that Dr Bruce will indeed lead me to the medical certificate, in fact he said its 100% certain that I would succeed. However, my gut tells me to roll the dice and find one of the doctors who will think outside the box.
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IMO that would be a serious mistake.

Doc Bruce is successful with these tough cases for two reasons. 1: He knows what the FAA is going to want and provides it, usually even before they ask. And 2: He will not send in a marginal, loser case that contains errors, omission, lies, or fudging, and they know that, and that is why he has credibility with them.
 
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bob8619 said:
Mike I've seen stories where people have gotten their medical with a dui on their record JUST by sending the FAA the requested court documents. So that alone tells me that there ARE other ways than those two ways to do it. Maybe the most common way is the rehab or two years but I'm not so sure its the only two ways.

I'm fully aware that they want me to prove sobriety. And I'm willing to do so. My whole gripe here is how they are supposedly "proving" it. Rehab without an eval to determine the LEVEL of dependence or LACK THEIROF is not proving anything. That is all I'm talking about here. The doctor vs FAA statement is irrelevant.
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Correct, but you blew over the limit that the FAA allows for that, you were functioning at .192 which means you are a hard core alcoholic. The FAA doesn't want hard core alcoholics, so it's up to you to prove to them you are no longer drinking.
 
bob8619 said:
I believe that Dr Bruce will indeed lead me to the medical certificate, in fact he said its 100% certain that I would succeed. However, my gut tells me to roll the dice and find one of the doctors who will think outside the box.
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You would be -- mistaken. If you roll snake eyes, you may never fly anything bigger than 254Lbs during daylight hours with 5 gal of gas strapped to your back.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Ummmm. I take your second post here as a desire to circumvent a sure thing and try to slip by the standard and certainty that Breuce has already laid out for you.

Saying that you are going to seek a short cut has you loosing a few steps of respect from me when you shared what Bruce said you need to do and you were willing to do that.

As someone said just a few posts back, the FAA has a very dim view of folks with a violent alcoholic past and it is to you to prove to them you are very little or no risk to them and yourself.

Yes it is a two year and expensive journey, but the small sacrifice of time and cash could mean that the FAA never bothers you about this stuff again as long as you stay out of trouble and don't bend any metal (aka do something that initiates an investigation).

You are encouraged to do this the way Bruce laid out. If you choose the short cut, I won't blame Bruce for cutting you out and keeping you from the sure thing.
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I'm not sure how me desiring a more logical method is grounds for losing your respect.... I think instead of taking Airline pilots word for it, we should install interlock devices for them to blow into in order to prevent them from ever flying drunk. I would find that to be a safer and more logical approach to ensuring passenger safety. Obviously this is just my opinion although it does go against the FAA's current protocol. Does this also cause you to lose respect? I'm being very blunt here but don't confuse it with anger or malice please, Im just truly curious.

I was more than willing to do as Bruce said (and actually still am in terms of psychiatric evaluations, and drug/alcohol screenings) its just the more I thought about it the less I liked the whole idea of being forced into AA meetings as a form of proof of sobriety. If anything it could be taken as proof of RECOVERY but therein lies the problem, how about proving the need for recovery before just making someone do it? I'm sure a high percentage of the people would be found in need of recovery but why lump everyone in together. This isn't a one size fits all thing.
 
Henning said:
There is not, the FAA has their system, end of story, not up for discussion. Bruce gave you the options the FAA presents to you, it's not up in the AME's purview to create more options.
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Not up for discussion? You're telling me I am not allowed to voice my opinion in the thread I created?
 
bob8619 said:
Not up for discussion? You're telling me I am not allowed to voice my opinion in the thread I created?
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Lord no...share your opinion.

Henning is talking about the FAA...THEY dont give a flying fcuk
 
bob8619 said:
I'm not sure how me desiring a more logical method is grounds for losing your respect.... I think instead of taking Airline pilots word for it, we should install interlock devices for them to blow into in order to prevent them from ever flying drunk. I would find that to be a safer and more logical approach to ensuring passenger safety. Obviously this is just my opinion although it does go against the FAA's current protocol. Does this also cause you to lose respect? I'm being very blunt here but don't confuse it with anger or malice please, Im just truly curious.

I was more than willing to do as Bruce said (and actually still am in terms of psychiatric evaluations, and drug/alcohol screenings) its just the more I thought about it the less I liked the whole idea of being forced into AA meetings as a form of proof of sobriety. If anything it could be taken as proof of RECOVERY but therein lies the problem, how about proving the need for recovery before just making someone do it? I'm sure a high percentage of the people would be found in need of recovery but why lump everyone in together. This isn't a one size fits all thing.
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You do have the option of suing the FAA under "pursuit of happiness", one guy won his right to fly on SSRIs that way before the new protocol. You ****ed yourself, now you have to deal with it. You have many options to fly outside the medical system, but only four to gain a medical, the two Bruce gave you, lying, or suing the FAA for a medical. Your choice, but there is no AME that is going to come up with something else.
 
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Henning said:
Correct, but you blew over the limit that the FAA allows for that, you were functioning at .192 which means you are a hard core alcoholic. The FAA doesn't want hard core alcoholics, so it's up to you to prove to them you are no longer drinking.
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Never said that I wont prove that I'm not drinking, just stating the fact that neither inpatient rehab nor AA is proof of such. And I find it hard to believe that the federal aviation administration isn't aware of that.
 
bob8619 said:
Never said that I wont prove that I'm not drinking, just stating the fact that neither inpatient rehab nor AA is proof of such. And I find it hard to believe that the federal aviation administration isn't aware of that.
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Yet those are the methods the FAA allows, if you want something else, you need a lawyer, not a doctor.
 
No I am not talking about lying on the app Henning. I'm talking about doctors and/or lawyer who might be willing to present different ways of handling it. Character witnesses, FAA appoved psychs who would attest that I'm not showing signs of mental illness or chemical dependency, agreement to monthly evaluations, randomized drug and alcohol testing, the list goes on.
 
bob8619 said:
Not up for discussion? You're telling me I am not allowed to voice my opinion in the thread I created?
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Sure, you can voice your opinion here, it will not change the FAA's opinion one iota. You want to discuss this with them, you need to take them to court, because they don't give a flying **** what some drunk violent felon wants to claim.
 
bob8619 said:
No I am not talking about lying on the app Henning. I'm talking about doctors and/or lawyer who might be willing to present different ways of handling it. Character witnesses, FAA appoved psychs who would attest that I'm not showing signs of mental illness or chemical dependency, agreement to monthly evaluations, randomized drug and alcohol testing, the list goes on.
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Like I said, you can sue them to attempt to gain your own protocol, it's been done before and won before, but you will have to win in court.
 
No I'm not going to sue the FAA. Voicing ones opinion isn't always done in hopes of actually changing a situation. Some people like to vent sometimes Henning. I also cant help but detect a hint of self-righteousness in the way you refer to me as "some drunk violent felon".
 
bob8619 said:
No I'm not going to sue the FAA. Voicing ones opinion isn't always done in hopes of actually changing a situation. Some people like to vent sometimes Henning. I also cant help but detect a hint of self-righteousness in the way you refer to me as "some drunk violent felon".
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No self righteousness, I'm trying to get you to understand how FAA views you.
 
Actually, I think you are correct about one thing. Any rehab program that would accept you as an inpatient is going to do an intake evaluation. The best ones usually have a waiting list. They don't need you if you don't need them. Any insurance company that is going to pay for it, is going to want that evaluation.


If you don't need it and they can say that, you can then move on.

As far as AA goes, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
 
Gotcha. Dr Bruce didn't make one mention about the felonies. The only thing he was worried about was the DUI.
 
bob8619 said:
Gotcha. Dr Bruce didn't make one mention about the felonies. The only thing he was worried about was the DUI.
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You still haven't answered directly if your medical has been submitted to the FAA yet.
 
Bob - you are trying to apply logic to the FAA's thought process. They are the least qualified group to handle anything like medical matters, yet they continue to drive forward as if they were experts in the medical field.

This applies doubly for psychological matters.

Your best bet is to listen to Doctor Bruce and do what he says. It is a stupid game, and the FAA has the cards stacked in their favor. Consider Bruce the game master that understands what the FAA is doing when they try to cheat.

You can try to beat the FAA at their own game, but ultimately, they will win. They are largely unchecked and they have nothing and no one to hold them accountable for their pure bull**** "expertise."
 
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