Blacks in Aviation

Re: Race in America

I don't get the big deal here. We're supposed to be aiming for a color blind society and then this?

The skin color of someone won't make me or they fly better, it won't make my $100 burger taste any better, it won't make me play golf any better, or feel better about myself. I'm white of Swedish and Russian (some Irish) stock, all my role models were active military. And it was beaten into my head that you needed the 'right stuff' and I didn't have it.

I figured it out later. So if I was other than a white male it should be any different, that I would have cause to feel marginalized? Just what is this thread about?

Don't have role models? Just go do it, whatever it happens to be. Then become a role model if that is important to you.
 
Re: Race in America

Richard said:
I don't get the big deal here. We're supposed to be aiming for a color blind society and then this?

The skin color of someone won't make me or they fly better, it won't make my $100 burger taste any better, it won't make me play golf any better, or feel better about myself. I'm white of Swedish and Russian (some Irish) stock, all my role models were active military. And it was beaten into my head that you needed the 'right stuff' and I didn't have it.

I figured it out later. So if I was other than a white male it should be any different, that I would have cause to feel marginalized? Just what is this thread about?

Don't have role models? Just go do it, whatever it happens to be. Then become a role model if that is important to you.
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Well, one big deal is that we (or at least many of us) are desperately trying to increase the pilot population. The lack of representation amongst minorities (or, in the case of majorities, e.g. women) suggests that there may be an enormous untapped potential user base there. So we look for ways to become known to those groups.
 
Re: Race in America

gprellwitz said:
Well, one big deal is that we (or at least many of us) are desperately trying to increase the pilot population. The lack of representation amongst minorities (or, in the case of majorities, e.g. women) suggests that there may be an enormous untapped potential user base there. So we look for ways to become known to those groups.
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I'm all for increasing the pilot population. But by now who hasn't heard of aviation? Who hasn't known a pilot or been told directly they too can become a pilot? And what does skin color have to do with that?

I have never understood the outreach specific to minorities. An individual either has an interest or they don't. IIRC, there is a non-profit in Compton, CA. They specifically target inner city black youths in an aviation program (becoming a pilot or an aircraft mechanic). While they do enjoy success with those who participate, in the general population there is very little participation in the program. Maybe the prerequisite is too much to ask? Maybe it's not cool enough. If you are to target specific groups, you must also address the culture of that group.

While I don't fully understand the big push I will say I am decidely against a 'forced' or contrived participation based on skin color and not merit or ability. Those type of incentives serve to lower the bar for all the population. And they serve to perpetuate the stereotype that a member of a minority is 'not good enough' as well as creating a culture of blame.
 
The grand experiment about becoming a color blind society has failed. It will never happen, nor should it. We are individuals.

According to my daughter ( teaching and tennured professor / PhD sociology & marketing) we are a "salad" not a melting pot. Each piece of the salad has a distinct trait, flavor, differences, and taste. Held together by a common "dressing" ; language, citizenship, common goals, ect. ( I paid her student loans for this? :eek: ;))

It is an interesting subject. Why a certain ethic or racial group of our citizens are interested in certain hobbies, sports, or activities should be studied and embraced. To understand one aspect of diversity can be used to affect and encourage another.

It is the love of aviation that is the "salad dressing" here. Each and every member brings unique observations, experiences, and "flavor" to the forum.
 
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Geico266 said:
The grand experiment about becoming a color blind society has failed. It will never happen, nor should it. We are individuals.

According to my daughter ( teaching and tennured professor / PhD sociology & marketing) we are "salad" not a melting pot. Each piece of the salad has a distinct trait, flavor, differences, and taste. Held together by a common "dressing; language, citizenship, common goals, ect. ( I paid her student loans for this? :eek: ;))

It is an interesting subject. Why a certain ethic or racial group of our citizens are interested in certain hobbies, sports, or activities should be studied and embraced. To

understand one aspect of diversity can be used to affect and encourage another.

It is the love of aviation that is the "salad dressing" here. Each and every member brings unique observations, experiences, and "flavor" to the forum.
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+1 Well said.
 
Re: Race in America

Richard said:
I have never understood the outreach specific to minorities. An individual either has an interest or they don't.
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While it is true that an individual either has the interest or they don't, some are uncomfortable if they think the activity is mostly populated by individuals who are different, either ethnically or in gender than they are. How many men would initially feel comfortable in a setting where all the other participants were women? OK, bad example. How many caucasians would initially feel comfortable in a setting where all the other participants were from another race or culture? Some would be OK with it, but I'll bet a fairly large number of others would not, at least not until they got used to it. I think the goal absolutely should be to become a color-blind and gender-blind society as far as opportunity is concerned but I don't think that it's realistic to think the percentages of people in each activity will reflect the population as a whole. There are many activities in which I have little interest some of which are traditionally male and some female. You won't find me out fishing, hunting, playing golf, watching sports, cooking for entertainment or looking at fashion and decorating magazines...
 
Re: Race in America

Everskyward said:
While it is true that an individual either has the interest or they don't, some are uncomfortable if they think the activity is mostly populated by individuals who are different, either ethnically or in gender than they are. How many men would initially feel comfortable in a setting where all the other participants were women? OK, bad example. How many caucasians would initially feel comfortable in a setting where all the other participants were from another race or culture? Some would be OK with it, but I'll bet a fairly large number of others would not, at least not until they got used to it. I think the goal absolutely should be to become a color-blind and gender-blind society as far as opportunity is concerned but I don't think that it's realistic to think the percentages of people in each activity will reflect the population as a whole. There are many activities in which I have little interest some of which are traditionally male and some female. You won't find me out fishing, hunting, playing golf, watching sports, cooking for entertainment or looking at fashion and decorating magazines...
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You should have listened to your mom and become an attorney. ;)
 
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AdamZ said:
Ah I think you see her at the breakfast table every morning.:wink2:

On this board we have your lovely wife and Red Tail.
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I think that Ted is talking about Danos in his subsequent post. And there are likely others too who haven't self-identified or participated in many fly-ins.
 
Daughter: Dad, what do you call a Black man that flies an airplane?

Dad: I give up...

Daughter: A pilot, you racist.
 
AdamZ said:
Did??????:wink2:
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The point was that, at the time my mother would have suggested it, I was argumentative.

The fact that I can be argumentative today is, well, logical given the fact that I was also argumentative in the past. ;)

gprellwitz said:
I think that Ted is talking about Danos in his subsequent post. And there are likely others too who haven't self-identified or participated in many fly-ins.
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I am, indeed.
 
Old Geek said:
Daughter: Dad, what do you call a Black man that flies an airplane?

Dad: I give up...

Daughter: A pilot, you racist.
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I agree with your daughter. Why make race an issue at all? What is the point of this thread? We need to get away from this hypenated society, and just focus on getting the job done. All the attempted social engineering in the world isn't going to help.

It's like the guy that asked about the gay pilots a few years ago one here. Who cares if he's gay? Can he fly the plane?
 
Anthony said:
I agree with your daughter. Why make race an issue at all? What is the point of this thread? We need to get away from this hypenated society, and just focus on getting the job done. All the attempted social engineering in the world isn't going to help.

It's like the guy that asked about the gay pilots a few years ago one here. Who cares if he's gay? Can he fly the plane?
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I can see this is going to be my new favorite 3 word phrase

Ron Levy said:
Law of Readiness.
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Re: Race in America

Richard said:
I don't get the big deal here. We're supposed to be aiming for a color blind society and then this?
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It need not have anything to do with color per se and everything to do with root cause analysis. Let me try to explain by example:

What if you were a farmer and one year one of the crops you planted failed to even sprout? All your other crops came up fine. You'd start investigating - any other farmers experience problems with that crop? Are any of your other crops at risk? You'd start looking for causes, to insure not only that crop did better next year, but that nothing else was at risk.

With respect to blacks, just because you and I are non-discriminatory (while we adjust our halos for best visibility,) it is pretty clear it still exists. Other factors, such as the large difference in median family income for white (~$50k) versus black (~$30k) families are also likely causal.

Even if one has zero interest in increasing the number of pilots, it may prove worthwhile to determine what causes the difference in interests among social groups.

So threads like should not be dismissed, IMHO.
 
Geico266 said:
According to my daughter ( teaching and tennured professor / PhD sociology & marketing) we are a "salad" not a melting pot. Each piece of the salad has a distinct trait, flavor, differences, and taste. Held together by a common "dressing" ; language, citizenship, common goals, ect. ( I paid her student loans for this? :eek: ;))
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Not judging it, just statement of fact...

Around here, you'd best remove "language" from the "common dressing".

We're a two-language State here in Colorado, as are most south of here. In some areas, Citizenship is questionable, as are common goals.

It does make for some very funny articles in the local town rag from time to time, though...

http://www.westword.com/columns/ask-a-mexican-230426/
 
The question is whether there is a factor beyond economic means that keeps this group out of aviation is a valid one. Doesn't mean we need 'programs' to make sure the mix of skin colors conforms to some abstract concept. But if there is something we are doing that puts people off, we maybe should stop doing it. A friend of mine is pakistani and collects sports cars. He went to some of the meetings of the local Porsche club but found out that the members were less interested in talking about the cars and racing and more interested in exchanging information about which ship captain and crew to hire to move their yachts down to their florida home for the winter or who the best transporter for their polo ponies would be. He expressed it politely as 'we just didn't seem to share much of a common experience'.


Btw. I dont think plucking kids out of a low income neighborhood and introducing them to aviation is going to have much of a yield for creating pilots who can stick with it long-term. Offering aviation resources to the upwardly mobile at colleges and universities, including traditionally black institutions, may have a more lasting impact.
 
weilke said:
A friend of mine is pakistani and collects sports cars. He went to some of the meetings of the local Porsche club but found out that the members were less interested in talking about the cars and racing and more interested in exchanging information about which ship captain and crew to hire to move their yachts down to their florida home for the winter or who the best transporter for their polo ponies would be. He expressed it politely as 'we just didn't seem to share much of a common experience'.
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So it had nothing to do with him being foreign, nor his skin color, and all about his economic situation, and different priorities, correct? I think he was not only being polite, but very accurate.
 
weilke said:
The question is whether there is a factor beyond economic means that keeps this group out of aviation is a valid one. Doesn't mean we need 'programs' to make sure the mix of skin colors conforms to some abstract concept. But if there is something we are doing that puts people off, we maybe should stop doing it. A friend of mine is pakistani and collects sports cars. He went to some of the meetings of the local Porsche club but found out that the members were less interested in talking about the cars and racing and more interested in exchanging information about which ship captain and crew to hire to move their yachts down to their florida home for the winter or who the best transporter for their polo ponies would be. He expressed it politely as 'we just didn't seem to share much of a common experience'.


Btw. I dont think plucking kids out of a low income neighborhood and introducing them to aviation is going to have much of a yield for creating pilots who can stick with it long-term. Offering aviation resources to the upwardly mobile at colleges and universities, including traditionally black institutions, may have a more lasting impact.
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As a representative of a statistical anomaly you're going to have a tough time convincing me that efforts will be wasted.

Hmmm....sounds like the same argument the Army had against Blacks flying in 1995 er...1925

But I agree, I haven't yet proven myself.
 
Anthony said:
So it had nothing to do with him being foreign, nor his skin color, and all about his economic situation, and different priorities, correct? I think he was not only being polite, but very accurate.
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His economic situation is actually quite good, the kind of 'one house for me and the family, another one behind the tennis court for the cars' kind of good. It was just that he is a car guy and the people in the club were not.

There are FBOs and flight schools like that.
 
Jaybird180 said:
As a representative of a statistical anomaly you're going to have a tough time convincing me that efforts will be wasted.
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How many of the people who went through the program before you are pilots 5 years later ?
 
weilke said:
How many of the people who went through the program before you are pilots 5 years later ?
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What program? I didn't go through a program.

I was just saying that all the socio-fed stereotypical statistics says that I'm not supposed to live the life I do, not supposed to be a pilot, not supposed to be worthwhile to my family, not supposed to...
 
SOMEONE took the time to invest in me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here posting this.
 
Jaybird180 said:
What program? I didn't go through a program.
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Sorry, I misunderstood you. I was referring to some of the programs that try hard to get kids from the inner city out to the airport, offer them free ground school etc. While I understand the motivation, I am not sure they will ultimately create more pilots if we fail to provide jobs and education otherwise that allow people to be engaged in aviation.

SOMEONE took the time to invest in me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here posting this.
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Sounds like you found a mentor who looked at you as a person, not a group or statistic.
 
Those programs fail becuase they are created with a welfare mentality. They do nothing but throw money at a situation instead of understanding the root cause. If I had some of the resources now available to me when I was a kid, I would be further along in some areas. I don't think I would have appreciated it as much or had the substance required to say with conviction the words I used above.
 
Jaybird180 said:
We had an Asian lady in my Groundschool class. It was unfortunate when she quit. She said she realized that she didn't want to do this. But I think she was demotivated by not having anything to connect the theory to the practical because someone convinced her that it was better to do groundschool first, so the lessons never "clicked".

She said she started to learn to fly as a motivation for her daughter. I liked her motive.
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I think its really dumb that some instructors require students take ground school class before they take them on as full time students. Only exception would be a fast-track student. Really the best way is to learn ground and flight at the same time.

I studied ground stuff and took lessons at the same time. No ground school, just a few books. I got my PPL in 5 months and 50 hours.
 
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dell30rb said:
I think its really dumb that some instructors require students take ground school class before they take them on as full time students. Only exception would be a fast-track student. Really the best way is to learn ground and flight at the same time.
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On the other extreme you have those students who are ready for the checkride if there wasn't that pesky written exam they still have to take.

From a motivational standpoint it makes no sense to put someone who wants to fly into a classroom rather than a plane.
 
weilke said:
On the other extreme you have those students who are ready for the checkride if there wasn't that pesky written exam they still have to take.
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true but I found it easier to motivate myself to study for the written once I could see the light at the end of the tunnel!
 
denverpilot said:
Not judging it, just statement of fact...

Around here, you'd best remove "language" from the "common dressing".

We're a two-language State here in Colorado, as are most south of here. In some areas, Citizenship is questionable, as are common goals.

It does make for some very funny articles in the local town rag from time to time, though...

http://www.westword.com/columns/ask-a-mexican-230426/
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That is sad.........
 
When I confronted all of the ground school type stuff I was going to have to learn in order to become a pilot, I found it quite intimidating. I dealt with it by telling myself that I only had to learn one thing at a time. It worked.

Perhaps it would be helpful to remind prospective students of this.
 
Palmpilot said:
When I confronted all of the ground school type stuff I was going to have to learn in order to become a pilot, I found it quite intimidating. I dealt with it by telling myself that I only had to learn one thing at a time. It worked.

Perhaps it would be helpful to remind prospective students of this.
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None of learning to fly is particularly difficult. However, there is a lot to know.

Personal anecdote: arising from my efforts to intimately understand the workings of a Continental TSIO-520, I posed questions to several A&Ps familiar with the engine. Mostly the answer was, "Everything is connected." A diagram was easy to construct, to explain was more challenging.
 
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dell30rb said:
I think its really dumb that some instructors require students take ground school class before they take them on as full time students. Only exception would be a fast-track student. Really the best way is to learn ground and flight at the same time.

I studied ground stuff and took lessons at the same time. No ground school, just a few books. I got my PPL in 5 months and 50 hours.
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Partly I think this is what she wanted to hear. My gut tells me that finances played a role too. It cost me 13k+ to get my ticket.
 
weilke said:
Btw. I dont think plucking kids out of a low income neighborhood and introducing them to aviation is going to have much of a yield for creating pilots who can stick with it long-term.
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OK, so this should be the perfect program. It doesn't get much more upscale than Aspen.

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/151433

The Aspen School District is considering a new program that would teach students to fly airplanes as part of their math and science curriculum.
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redtail said:
Damn! 13k! :hairraise:
It cost me a little more than 7500 back in '98 out at KTEB and I thought that was a lot:lol:
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It cost me about $3,500 in 1994 at KLNS. C-152's were $37/hour wet.
 
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